If we cannot save ourselves, how can we then condemn ourselves?

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BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
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#1
If our salvation is based upon Christ's finished work, us being saved by grace through faith, how is it that people profess that we can lose our salvation? There are believers opposed to OSAS and usually its opposed for the reason that they believe people end up excusing sin, living like a heathen and being perfectly fine with it. I find this to be a straw man of sorts, and a misunderstanding of God's grace.

Anyways, I know this topic is probably discussed all the time, and there are going to be some groans that I opened up another thread on the topic, but if someone could, I would like an awesome response in defense of OSAS. In like manner, if someone could make a rebuttal to OSAS.

I just want to see both sides, clearly presented. Relatives I have discuss this and it can be heated at times, because so much of one's doctrines can be influenced by this one belief. The accusation being, "You always revert to OSAS", but if that is true (OSAS), then there is no systematic reason for the other doctrines to be false (or used as an excuse to not make a rebuttal).
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
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#2
If no one wishes to actually write out a response, links would be appreciated where OSAS and loss of salvation are discussed or debated.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,211
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#3
Sadly ben any thread even with the intention of actually learning in our debates will just turn into a war thread. I would be more than happy to discuss it with you if you like, I do not believe in osas but I am also willing to have a civil discussion about it
 

Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
1,099
41
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#4
Here is the real reason you can lose your salvation. Matthew; 12;43-44-45 which is in reference to a person being born again.God has cleaned that person's soul of all sin and any demons. i believe all that are not saved have some form of demon in them. once the spirit has been clean and demons tossed out, it is now empty. In order for these demons to not move back in ,you must be baptized with the holy spirit,and that is your new occupant. because the demons will return. when they come and see the house occupied they cannot and will not move back in,because you now have a holy spirit in you instead of a demonic spirit.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,211
2,547
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#5
My thinking about this has been kind of a dual type of thinking. I mean many people are on fire for god but over time and as things get more rocky the flame flickers and eventually dies out my best friend is one of those people.He is now an Atheist and a quote from the movie God's not dead says that some of the most dedicated Atheists were once Christians.

But I also have this in the back of my mind, if one truly loves someone there is no limits they won't go for that person right? So if a person is a Christian and truly loves god how can they lose they their salvation? Because for me my love and passion for God is nothing less than an all consuming blazing fire and has been since I was saved and has even intensified since then, but many began with this same fire and yet it sizzled and died out. So if osas is true does that mean those who began with this fire but let it die out were never saved or can one lose their fire?
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#6
If our salvation is based upon Christ's finished work, us being saved by grace through faith, how is it that people profess that we can lose our salvation? There are believers opposed to OSAS and usually its opposed for the reason that they believe people end up excusing sin, living like a heathen and being perfectly fine with it. I find this to be a straw man of sorts, and a misunderstanding of God's grace.

Anyways, I know this topic is probably discussed all the time, and there are going to be some groans that I opened up another thread on the topic, but if someone could, I would like an awesome response in defense of OSAS. In like manner, if someone could make a rebuttal to OSAS.

I just want to see both sides, clearly presented. Relatives I have discuss this and it can be heated at times, because so much of one's doctrines can be influenced by this one belief. The accusation being, "You always revert to OSAS", but if that is true (OSAS), then there is no systematic reason for the other doctrines to be false (or used as an excuse to not make a rebuttal).
Until a person sees and believes that their sins have been forgiven, that God is no longer judging us for our sins, they will continue to think that sin can rob them of their salvation.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
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#7
Here is the real reason you can lose your salvation. Matthew; 12;43-44-45 which is in reference to a person being born again.God has cleaned that person's soul of all sin and any demons. i believe all that are not saved have some form of demon in them. once the spirit has been clean and demons tossed out, it is now empty. In order for these demons to not move back in ,you must be baptized with the holy spirit,and that is your new occupant. because the demons will return. when they come and see the house occupied they cannot and will not move back in,because you now have a holy spirit in you instead of a demonic spirit.
First of all you are reading into the text what you believe. The person is not born again, this story is told before the Spirit came in Acts 2, reading into the context what you believe instead of believing what you read, you read what you believe. Give some Scripture to prove your point not your opinion. As to people not being saved have demons and how this person is born again.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,869
9,601
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#8
Go to Dcon's Not By Works thread. There's a few there who refuse to believe that our works are NOT necessary to gaining or keeping salvation.


If no one wishes to actually write out a response, links would be appreciated where OSAS and loss of salvation are discussed or debated.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
#9
If no one wishes to actually write out a response, links would be appreciated where OSAS and loss of salvation are discussed or debated.
Instead of OSAS it should be, once justified always justified. Our justification is the bases of our salvation, once God has eternally justified us, we can never be changed with the crime of sin again, if we were that would be double jeopardy and not even human courts will do that. God is way more just than any human judge could ever be.
 
Dec 19, 2009
27,513
128
0
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#10
If our salvation is based upon Christ's finished work, us being saved by grace through faith, how is it that people profess that we can lose our salvation? There are believers opposed to OSAS and usually its opposed for the reason that they believe people end up excusing sin, living like a heathen and being perfectly fine with it. I find this to be a straw man of sorts, and a misunderstanding of God's grace.

Anyways, I know this topic is probably discussed all the time, and there are going to be some groans that I opened up another thread on the topic, but if someone could, I would like an awesome response in defense of OSAS. In like manner, if someone could make a rebuttal to OSAS.

I just want to see both sides, clearly presented. Relatives I have discuss this and it can be heated at times, because so much of one's doctrines can be influenced by this one belief. The accusation being, "You always revert to OSAS", but if that is true (OSAS), then there is no systematic reason for the other doctrines to be false (or used as an excuse to not make a rebuttal).
Not to be argumentative, but I couldn’t resist:

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; or God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Phil 2:12-13 RSV
 
Dec 2, 2016
1,652
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#11
Hi Ben: I was an extreme advocate for OSAS for many years, most of what I believed I still believe, the eternal security of one whose faith is in God through Jesus Christ. I was missing one point, free will, God will never make a person stay committed to Jesus Christ IF they chose to turn away, and sadly, some do chose to turn away. Part of this is a lack of understanding of what we are given by God and what must come from us. We are given everything from God in order to be saved, even our ability to chose(our will), therefore we can chose to reject Christ in the same way we chose to accept Christ. Look at all the false beliefs in this forum by Christians, why does not God stop them? Because in this life we have to choose and God will not force us, so a Christian can even chose to stop believing in God, if they want to.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,739
704
113
#12
If our salvation is based upon Christ's finished work, us being saved by grace through faith, how is it that people profess that we can lose our salvation? There are believers opposed to OSAS and usually its opposed for the reason that they believe people end up excusing sin, living like a heathen and being perfectly fine with it. I find this to be a straw man of sorts, and a misunderstanding of God's grace.

Anyways, I know this topic is probably discussed all the time, and there are going to be some groans that I opened up another thread on the topic, but if someone could, I would like an awesome response in defense of OSAS. In like manner, if someone could make a rebuttal to OSAS.

I just want to see both sides, clearly presented. Relatives I have discuss this and it can be heated at times, because so much of one's doctrines can be influenced by this one belief. The accusation being, "You always revert to OSAS", but if that is true (OSAS), then there is no systematic reason for the other doctrines to be false (or used as an excuse to not make a rebuttal).
For a rebuttal, I think I'd start with the passage at the heart of the gospel of salvation:

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

Now I'm going to alter the text so that it's in error...


Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God


What's missing is "faith". We know that Faith is required to receive the gift of grace, because grace is received *through* faith. So if we removed "faith" from the Ephesians passage it's no longer true.

Q: Who must exercise faith to receive the free gift: God or the man/woman?
A: The man/woman

This means they have a part to play in salvation; the "abiding" part. Surely grace is a free gift but to claim it we must ourselves do something: believe. Scripture says every person has been given a measure of faith (Romans 12:3), but just because someone has been given some faith doesn't mean they use it. Scripture says faith can grow (Luke 17:5), and it also says faith can be dead (James 2:14), both of which are the result of what the person is doing with it.

So if the gift of grace (in order to be saved) requires faith the question is, "is it possible for a person to abandon their faith?"


1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,

To "abandon" faith means that they once had faith but no longer have it or use it...and we know that without faith it's IMPOSSIBLE to please God (Hebrews 11:6).


Without continued faith how can one continue to abide in Christ?

...Without abiding in Christ how can one possess his grace?

...Without grace how can one remain saved?

So God's grace is like Noah's ark during the flood that destroyed the world. Folks can choose to stay in the boat and remain safe or they can jump out of the boat and be destroyed. They can keep walking forward or turn around and be turn to stone. They can cast out demons and witness miracles, walking right beside Christ, but then they can also choose to betray him for 30 pieces of silver and end up being destroyed in the end.

So this is why Christ said to John by the spirit the following:


Revelation 14:12
Here is the *patient endurance* of the saints: that they keep the commandments of God and [keep] faith in Jesus


Matthew 24:13
"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#13
For a rebuttal, I think I'd start with the passage at the heart of the gospel of salvation:

Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

Now I'm going to alter the text so that it's in error...


Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God


What's missing is "faith". We know that Faith is required to receive the gift of grace, because grace is received *through* faith. So if we removed "faith" from the Ephesians passage it's no longer true.

Q: Who must exercise faith to receive the free gift: God or the man/woman?
A: The man/woman

This means they have a part to play in salvation; the "abiding" part. Surely grace is a free gift but to claim it we must ourselves do something: believe. Scripture says every person has been given a measure of faith (Romans 12:3), but just because someone has been given some faith doesn't mean they use it. Scripture says faith can grow (Luke 17:5), and it also says faith can be dead (James 2:14), both of which are the result of what the person is doing with it.

So if the gift of grace (in order to be saved) requires faith the question is, "is it possible for a person to abandon their faith?"


1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,

To "abandon" faith means that they once had faith but no longer have it or use it...and we know that without faith it's IMPOSSIBLE to please God (Hebrews 11:6).


Without continued faith how can one continue to abide in Christ?

...Without abiding in Christ how can one possess his grace?

...Without grace how can one remain saved?

So God's grace is like Noah's ark during the flood that destroyed the world. Folks can choose to stay in the boat and remain safe or they can jump out of the boat and be destroyed. They can keep walking forward or turn around and be turn to stone. They can cast out demons and witness miracles, walking right beside Christ, but then they can also choose to betray him for 30 pieces of silver and end up being destroyed in the end.

So this is why Christ said to John by the spirit the following:


Revelation 14:12
Here is the *patient endurance* of the saints: that they keep the commandments of God and [keep] faith in Jesus


Matthew 24:13
"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

"BUT we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved." Hebrews 10:39
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,739
704
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#14

"BUT we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved." Hebrews 10:39

Amen.



Hopefully one remains faithful.
 
May 12, 2017
2,641
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#15
If our salvation is based upon Christ's finished work, us being saved by grace through faith, how is it that people profess that we can lose our salvation? There are believers opposed to OSAS and usually its opposed for the reason that they believe people end up excusing sin, living like a heathen and being perfectly fine with it. I find this to be a straw man of sorts, and a misunderstanding of God's grace.

Anyways, I know this topic is probably discussed all the time, and there are going to be some groans that I opened up another thread on the topic, but if someone could, I would like an awesome response in defense of OSAS. In like manner, if someone could make a rebuttal to OSAS.

I just want to see both sides, clearly presented. Relatives I have discuss this and it can be heated at times, because so much of one's doctrines can be influenced by this one belief. The accusation being, "You always revert to OSAS", but if that is true (OSAS), then there is no systematic reason for the other doctrines to be false (or used as an excuse to not make a rebuttal).

I am just asking , Is the correct term losing salvation or walking away from the faith? This is also refuted because many on this board seem to believe there is no personal faith exercised in the decision to come to Jesus Christ and it is only his faith which saves you.
 
Jan 21, 2017
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#16
There are believers opposed to OSAS and usually its opposed for the reason that they believe people end up excusing sin, living like a heathen and being perfectly fine with it.
While I can see that as a valid concern, in reality we see people who believe you can lose salvation live just as much like a heathen and excusing sin.

So no matter what camp you are in, sin abounds, not because of OSAS or lack there of, but because repentance is dead in christianity. People (including me) dont like doing things that are painful and hard. I just wish we could admit it and stop making up excuses.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#18
I think the first part of your topic answers the second part.

IF we aren't of the understanding that our works won't save us...won't we be condemned in heart?
 
May 12, 2017
2,641
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#19
While I can see that as a valid concern, in reality we see people who believe you can lose salvation live just as much like a heathen and excusing sin.

So no matter what camp you are in, sin abounds, not because of OSAS or lack there of, but because repentance is dead in christianity. People (including me) dont like doing things that are painful and hard. I just wish we could admit it and stop making up excuses.
Titus 2.11-14

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, [SUP]12 [/SUP]instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, [SUP]13 [/SUP]looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

I know many OSAS that look at this verse and have no idea what this verse means. Likewise I know many who say you can lose their salvation and have no idea what this verse means.

This is because many have no understanding of their Identity in Chris Jesus and what it means to them in this present day.

Repentance is an ongoing heart condition and many parables of Jesus are about this single topic.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
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#20
Does anyone have some in-depth links that cover this topic well? I'd like to read some articles/books.