Has the gift of speaking in tongues ceased? - Tim Conway

MattTooFor · Jun 10, 2017

Yes, they do. Just not Jesus-style over-the-top "ZAP" miracles...unless you can point them out!

Jesus would go into a community (just to describe ONE of the features of a "Jesus-style" miracle) and most often would...

...select someone to heal that (wait for it) THE WHOLE COMMUNITY KNEW ABOUT BEFOREHAND.

Not like these sensationalistic phony healing services...where no one has a clue who this guy is that all of a sudden is melodramatically tossing his 'walker' across the stage and claiming he had arrived at the church as a "cripple".

No, Jesus would select someone (almost invariably) that everyone knew of previously...so there could be no doubt as to the authenticity of the miracle.

Today's Pentecostal/Charismatic healers need to find famous paralyzed and/or blind people known to the whole (American or world) community...who are eager for healing: Joni Eareckson Tada, paralyzed NFL star Darryl Stingley, on and on. Or find someone who is known locally to everyone. We have a well-known paralyzed football coach in Los Gatos CA, a devout Christian. I'm sure he would be ready, willing and able...for his big miracle...if such were actually going on.

And the old "you have to get your faith up" beat-down which many Pentecostals and Charismatics treat people to when they're trying to excuse and explain away the absence of a miracle healing -- pretty much pure baloney....and actually quite abusive towards people who are crushed by the inability to experience a miracle they may be desperate for. Many, many of the people who were healed by Jesus and/or the disciples never even saw it coming. Totally blindsided. Much less had they gotten their "faith up" - LOL.

presidente · Jun 10, 2017

MattTooFor said:

What are you talking about? I've used your own phrase 'anti-Jesus miracle.' I didn't look up your caps or quotes or whatever, but the same phrase. Usually, when people won't admit they are wrong and apologize, it is a sign of pride.

You seem concerned about false prophets and their role in eschatology. That's a worthy area of study. That stuff could happen in another 50, 100, or 200 years as far as you know. But your own personal holiness in how you interact with people is something that effects your life now. If it's a pride issue, I'd think more highly of you if you just apologized for calling me a liar for quoting what you said.

You accuse me of lying, then you misquote me. You accused me of lying for repeating back what you said. I quoted the post. you didn't even apologize. Unbelievers can do something simple like that. I didn't say you were Satanic. Satan is the accuser of the brethren. He doesn't need your help to falsely accuse people. I asked which part of Hell was hotter, the part for slanderers or the part for people who (whatever it was, hold their arms out a certain way, have a picture of a bridge behind them.) I didn't say you were going to the hottest part in Hell. If i said it, point it out and I'll apologize. My point is that you were doing something clearly wrong, while accusing others over questionable stuff how they held their arms out, how they positioned their hands, or what kind of bridge they have in the background.

Then you accuse me of dishonesty. If you don't always get your facts straight, I can be cool with that. But don't combine it with attacking my character.

I notice you don't like it if someone infers something from what you write, but you'll twist what I say around, interpret in a negative light, add to it. Then you accuse me of dishonesty.

Be that as it may, leading in with a nearly citation-less website assertions about pagan shapes and criticizing people for how they position their arms is rather lame. The bridge in the background of the Kay Authur photo that you thought looked like some kind of eye used for a pagan symbol really seemed over the top. You could dig through anyone's photos and try to accuse them of using pagan symbolism using that criteria.

If you've got something specific you want to point out, you can quote it, and I can read it if and when I read it. I don't have time to dig through back web pages. I've got to finish up my taxes and an trip coming up.

presidente · Jun 10, 2017

miknik5 said:

I posted earlier that I believe in 'KJV unicorns.' It's not the kid's cartoon mythical animal that the verse actually refers to.

Anyway, I thought it was a bad analogy because I couldn't say, "The Bible teaches the Spirit gives individuals with the working of miracles and gifts of healing, but it doesn't teach there are unicorns"-- because a major translation of the KJV uses the word 'unicorns.' So it's a bad example of a 'mythical beast' because of translation issues.

presidente · Jun 10, 2017

MattTooFor,

I did go back and go over some of your posts. For me, when I read about an anti-Jesus style miracle, anti means opposed to it, not an alternative style. That sounds to me like the style is wrong, opposed to Jesus style. That's how I've taken it. I've taken your other comments as adding futher commentary to your beliefs, not recanting or modifying your previous statement.

For me, it helps for communication if you actually say you were wrong, mis-stated, didn't use the optimal wording. etc. What stirs up a dust cloud for me in getting what you are saying are the constant false accusations of intentional dishonesty. I'm not trying to twist your words. I'm interpreting as I recall them. You seemed to display a lot of negative emotion toward that Delia Knox video. That's how I perceived it, accusing the man who prayed for her and various other comments. That's the context in which I interpreted your comments about the anti-Jesus style miracle. If you just mean it's not the way Jesus did miracles, then you could point that out, and say 'anti' wasn't the right word. The accusations may have distracted me from the point you were trying to make.

I also notice you've recalled some of my comments wrongly, even though I pointed out and clarified previously that this was not what I said or meant. So maybe the same communication problem is going on on your end. I didn't say you were going to Hell. I was contrasting false accusations as clear wrongdoing verses the lower standard of proof you were using to stir up suspcion against others on your website. That was my point about the hotter part of Hell. I don't believe I've ever written you were going to Hell, or the hottest Hell. You focused on the Hell part, not my point, which may have been what happened to me with the stream of dishonesty accusations.

I may miss your point at times, but I haven't tried to misrepresent you or twist your words in our discussions. Try to give me the benefit of the doubt going forward, if the conversation were to even go forward, and I'll try to do the same for you.

DJ2 · Jun 11, 2017

miknik5 said:

Your bumper sticker answer does not address MattToFor's post.

garee · Jun 11, 2017

presidente said:

It’s just like saying the strength of a bull
How many horns it has is not the subject matter. It can take way the understanding. By focusing on a horn and not strength.

Strongs lexicon 07214 r@'em {reh-ame'} or r@'eym {reh-ame'} or reym {rame} or rem {rame}
from 07213; TWOT - 2096a; n m
AV - unicorn 9; 9
probably the great aurochs or wild bulls which are now extinct. The exact meaning is not known.

And it is the gift of “hearing” another language as God gives ears to hear what the Spirit is saying. Men spoke in their own language God interpreted in other languages, as many as he chooses

Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Its God’s interpretation to us as prophecy, at the same time different function it is sign of rebellion in respect to the unbelieving Jew ( no faith)It revealed God was no longer brining prophecy in respect to a Jew, flesh alone But to all flesh to include the gentile nations. as in all nations

ct 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

It like all spirituals gifts (not seen )are given and an gift of prophecy..... God moving a person according to His word. Two is needed in regard a conversation of two in order to preach the one gospel in a mutual faith. (Chrsit) working in both. It mutually blesses hearer given ears to ear what the spirit says and by the same blessing that moved to bring the word of God (prophecy..

Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. 1Co 14:6-11

Therefore if Paul does not know the meaning of the other person’s language, then the language Paul used would not help him as the other person prophesies declaring the word of God.. God interprets it mutually to each one..The gift is after no man

presidente · Jun 11, 2017

garee said:

Verse 28 says 'and let one interpret.' Verse 13 instructs the one who speaks in tongues to pray that he may interpret. Speaking in tongues is unintelligible to those present. Therefore, one interprets for the congregation so that they might understand and be edified.

garee · Jun 11, 2017

presidente said:

Yes if God does not interpret they both should be silent. If God does interpret both will be given a understandings a interpretation of God. It has nothing to do with the one who declares the will of another. Tongues are a work of God in man it is not after any man’s private interpretation. The apostate Jews in that way required a sign before they would believe they had the Holy Spirit therefore not walking by faith the unseen eternal

There is no work we could do that gives outward evidence a person has the Holy Spirit, We walk by faith not by sight after some work we could do..

If a person contributes the work of God they have commited blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. The interpretation is a work of God given as a free gift it is not of themselves unles someone falsely boast in their own works. Remember it is God who works in us to both will and do his good pleasure.

Verse 13 instructs the one who speaks in tongues to pray that he may interpret or the hearer will be a barbarian to them and likewise when they speak they would be a barbarian to the other.. It would be like today one person speqking German and the other Swahelee nither would understand making the gospel without effect .

God speaks prophecy with words that are easy to understand not gibberish which no man could.

Therefore, one interprets as God gives his interpretations for the congregation so that they might all be given the understand and God being edifieded. We do not edify men for the work Christ performs in them

presidente · Jun 12, 2017

garee said:

It sounds like you imagine church meetings with two people. One person speaks in tongues and either that person or another person interprets so the church can be edified. If the speaker in tongues sees there is no interpreter, he is to be silent in the congregation and to speak to himself and to God.

Looks like a straw man, maybe. It's hard to follow your flow of thought.

You need to read Galatians. There are fruits of the Spirit. The Bible does not teach this statement, and there is plenty in it to contradict your statement.

You still seem very confused about what it means to walk by faith and not by sight. That instruction of Paul's does not contradict his own miracle working, his own life that demonstrated the fruit of the Spirit, the miracles the apostles did, or the fruit they bore. There was plenty of evidence for the work of their Spirit in their life. I Corinthians 12 even speaks of the 'manifestation' of the Spirit.

'Contributes to the work of God' is a vague phrase, but I don't see how it could be interpret to equate to blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Even if you mean someone trying to earn his salvation, that is a forgivable sin. Would you think Paul was eternally damned and unforgivable. for his pre-Christian confidence in his own works? One can do so without speaking a word against the Spirit. Speaking against the Holy Ghost is the unforgivable sin. Trying to earn one's salvation can be forgiven if one is made right in God's sight by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

I think you said the opposite of what you meant in that last sentence. The reason tongues need to be interpreted in church is because the congregation does not understand the language being spoken.

Swahili and German sound like gibberish. Hebrew and Greek do to those who have not learned them.

I do not know what you are trying to say here. You apparently use 'edify' in a different way from the way I understand the word, or your statement is false. Ephesians 4 speaks of various ministers being given to equip the saints. The NIV of Ephesians 4:12 puts it this way,

12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up

Your statement also goes against the body teaching in I Corinthians 12. The grace of God works through one member of the body to edify another, who is edified to do the work Christ wants Him to do. God works through people to minister to others.

miknik5 · Jun 12, 2017

MattTooFor said:

Yes, they do. Just not Jesus-style over-the-top "ZAP" miracles...unless you can point them out!

Jesus would go into a community (just to describe ONE of the features of a "Jesus-style" miracle) and most often would...

...select someone to heal that (wait for it) THE WHOLE COMMUNITY KNEW ABOUT BEFOREHAND.

Not like these sensationalistic phony healing services...where no one has a clue who this guy is that all of a sudden is melodramatically tossing his 'walker' across the stage and claiming he had arrived at the church as a "cripple".

No, Jesus would select someone (almost invariably) that everyone knew of previously...so there could be no doubt as to the authenticity of the miracle.

Today's Pentecostal/Charismatic healers need to find famous paralyzed and/or blind people known to the whole (American or world) community...who are eager for healing: Joni Eareckson Tada, paralyzed NFL star Darryl Stingley, on and on. Or find someone who is known locally to everyone. We have a well-known paralyzed football coach in Los Gatos CA, a devout Christian. I'm sure he would be ready, willing and able...for his big miracle...if such were actually going on.

And the old "you have to get your faith up" beat-down which many Pentecostals and Charismatics treat people to when they're trying to excuse and explain away the absence of a miracle healing -- pretty much pure baloney....and actually quite abusive towards people who are crushed by the inability to experience a miracle they may be desperate for. Many, many of the people who were healed by Jesus and/or the disciples never even saw it coming. Totally blindsided. Much less had they gotten their "faith up" - LOL.

JESUS basically stands alone
if HE chooses to do for us what we can't do (and no other can) HE would and could do it

miknik5 · Jun 12, 2017

DJ2 said:

JESUS can do what HE chooses to do
when and where and how HE chooses to do it

notuptome · Jun 12, 2017

miknik5 said:

Jesus will never choose to transgress the word of God. The Holy Spirit will not choose to transgress the word of God.

The fickle heart of man is always at enmity with the will of God and always chooses to transgress the word of God.

Of the two malefactors crucified with Christ one sought mercy according to the will of God while the other sought to manipulate the will of God through self will.

Do we command God?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

miknik5 · Jun 12, 2017

notuptome said:

We were talking about miracles

and HE can do what HE chooses to do

when I say JESUS, I do not separate father son and holy spirit

miknik5 · Jun 12, 2017

Now I have to go back and read my post in context to who I was responding to

im not sure why additional suggestions were added to what I said and meant when I said

Miracles do happen

miknik5 · Jun 12, 2017

MattTooFor said:

Oh, I see. No, I have no problem with that reference. My analogy had nothing to do with whether the Bible refers to something. My point merely was...there are no Unicorns in the world today...and addressing the question as to how we can reasonably confirm such...without having to scour every last inch of Planet Earth...which is what this guy is saying we must do with regard to any claim of a miracle.

It's nonsense, of course - I don't have to look through all 800 million YouTubes and have attended all 70 jillion church services over the span of almost 2000 years...in order to come to a reasonably certain conclusion there are no more ongoing Jesus-style miracles...the ultra-electrifying, on-the-spot, instantaneous "ZAP" miracles which cured people from life-long 'crippledness' and life-long 'stone blindness'.

All the top most successful and popular Pentecostal and Charismatic churches have nationally televised church services, week after week. And not a single solitary miracle which fits the description a Bible-style, Jesus-style, disciples-style miracle. It's pretty obvious what the reality is.

Here's the post I responded to and I am not in agreement to what was said above

What HE does by opening the eyes and ears of the heart to THE TRUTH of the GOSPEL I can attest to as being an immediate cut to the heart/knee buckling "ZAP" of a miracle

miknik5 · Jun 12, 2017

And if HE decides to give the gift of tongues to whomever HE calls it should be for the purpose of that same "ZAP" that an unbeliever might hear and believe THE TRUTH

All these gifts and callings and miracles are for HIS GLORY and the building up of HIS BODY

miknik5 · Jun 12, 2017

And if one who speaks in tongues can't interpret and no one can interpret what is being said and it is apparent no one is being edified than the one who speaks in tongues shouldn't speak

miknik5 · Jun 12, 2017

Okay

I'll leave you guys alone to your discussion of tongues

i really am not that interested

as far as I'm concerned, talking about the gift is giving more glory to the gift than to THE GIFT GIVER

miknik5 · Jun 12, 2017

And by the way

I neither limit nor command GOD
HE does what HE chooses to do

that is what I said

miknik5 · Jun 12, 2017

Now I understand the concern
there are a couple of things happening and being discussed here in this thread

i can see how the discussion of tongues led to other signs and the concern of false prophets

Anyone prophecying anything outside the TRUTH of THE GOSPEL and salvation now in JESUS' NAME alone is a false prophet and false witness

furthermore, these false prophets/false witnesses will actually be attributing these miraculous signs to an actual and physically present person calling him the Christ

and during such a time of unrest, men who do not know the TRUTH will be looking for any type of healing

but it will be a temporal patch me up "peace" which will appeal to worldly man and many who do not know THE TRUTH will flock to this false Christ/false messiah/false leader, as a different kind of temporal savior who will offer a different kind of temporal healing to save them from the trouble that will come upon the earth in those last days

but it wont be wternal

We know that THE CHRIST won't be coming again to attest of HIMSELF by signs and miracles ...and those in CHRIST already know that when HE comes again, it is for a completely different ministry

Has the gift of speaking in tongues ceased? - Tim Conway

MattTooFor

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