Last edited:
Has the gift of speaking in tongues ceased? - Tim Conway
- Thread starter Marano
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The existence of modern day tongues is not a debate between scriptures. Tongues are either real or not. There is no wiggly room or grey area. It must be of God or it is bogus. If it is real it will prove itself, there is no need to defend the existence of a event that is labeled as on-going and in plain sight. We do not need a discourse to prove the Bible records the use of tongues, it is well documented. What people fail to understand is the absurd lengths that Pentecostals and others will use to defend the claim that they are speaking in tongues.
If you believe people can fly, why would you point to a book on aeronautics and scorn others on their lack of faith in the science of flight? Why are you not just flying? Why are you running in circles and flapping your arms and calling this flight? Why do you act surprised when others roll their eyes at your silly attempts to convince others that you are really flying.
You are not flying, you are but running and flapping your arms. You are not speaking the language of angels, you are but babbling and no there is not a few people in 3rd world countries really doing it. No one is flying. No one is speaking in tongues.
Common sense trumps theory.
Your emperor is naked.
Again, the question is not does the Bible support speaking in tongues?. The question is "are you speaking in tongues" ?
If you believe people can fly, why would you point to a book on aeronautics and scorn others on their lack of faith in the science of flight? Why are you not just flying? Why are you running in circles and flapping your arms and calling this flight? Why do you act surprised when others roll their eyes at your silly attempts to convince others that you are really flying.
You are not flying, you are but running and flapping your arms. You are not speaking the language of angels, you are but babbling and no there is not a few people in 3rd world countries really doing it. No one is flying. No one is speaking in tongues.
Common sense trumps theory.
Your emperor is naked.
Again, the question is not does the Bible support speaking in tongues?. The question is "are you speaking in tongues" ?
There are lots of videos of healings and miracles. I am just not doing the research for you. One reason is when I showed you a documented case of a woman with a brain injury who was healed after the laying on of hands. I chose this one as an example because one can watch interviews and clips of her singing from the time she was in a wheelchair going years back. There was even a little human interest type news piece on her on YouTube when I looked into this story. The healing was gradual. She only walked at first, and you accused her healing of being an anti-Jesus miracle. You also accused the preacher who prayed for her of something. I don't remember if the word you used was fraud or shyster or whatever. You accuse me of dishonest for things that other people can clearly see aren't dishonest.
I don't see how it would do any good to research miracles for you. One of the issues here that would probably help you most, IMO, that has come up in this conversation is your tendancy to either accuse the brethren or to try to get people to view them with suspicion. I don't know much about Michael W. Smith's relationship with the Lord. Agnes Dei is a nice song and all, but trying to make people think he may be into the occult because his album has some letters that use a script that looks a bit like runes is ridiculous. Trying to make people suspicious of Kay Authur because an arched bridged in the background looks a bit like an eye is also ridiculous.
We aren't talking about mythical beasts. We are talking about whether the Spirit operates in the same way in the church as the Bible teaches He does. If you don't see any evidence for miracles, and you believe the Bible on this topic, you should allow for the fact that the Spirit might gift an individual to heal or do a miracle. You wouldn't then accuse anyone who has experienced this of being a liar or make blanket statements that such things do not exist. It is an issue of the fear of the Lord, and bearing false witness of God. How dare you say the Spirit will not do things the Bible teaches that He does? Where is the fear of God in that?
You twist stuff. We are all supposed to be 'ready to give an answer for the hope that is in you'. We hope for things we see not. You want evidence of things seen. We hope for the resurrection and the return of Christ. Again, you are being very loose with the scriptures, trying to stretch it to some principle you want it to mean so you can argue with people.
You never answered my question as to whether you have had conversations in your adult life that ended up in fist fights or people calling you names? Does this happen to you, and if so, how often does it happen?
There is no contradiction there. Think it through. Hint: you can do things you are not obligated to do. Btw, I have offered you evidence. You rejected and called people names.
I could give you a contact through a PM if you were sincere and wanting to look for answers, not looking for someone to call names. If you repented and apologized for the things you said about that preacher who prayed for the sick and others, maybe I'd consider it. I don't want to give you more names to drag through the mud, and no matter how you try to twist the Bible, I am not obligated to.
Which has evidence for healing and miracles that you don't bother to look up. I've seen plenty of videos that offer evidence worthy of further investigation if one is into investigating such things. I don't want to be asked to account for everyone's video just because I post a link on the one hand. On the other, I don't want to give you more names of people to randomly accuse. You don't need any solid evidence to accuse people, based on previous conversations.
I was born after the moon landings and accepted the offical story growing up. I saw one of those conspiracy theory videos about it. Most of the evidence was hard to follow and didn't really seem to make much of a case, but there were a few things. 'Facts' in this videos on YouTube could be false facts, not what really happened. But the fact that it was easier, cheaper, etc. to fake the moon landings than to actually do them, that there was a military motivation to do so is reason enough for me to keep an open mind to a conspiracy theory. It doesn't effect my daily life, so I have no real motivation to research the details of the missions.
No, I'm saying that you shouldn't be so 'bold' about rejecting something the Bible presents as a work of the Spirit because you haven't seen it. There are at least dozens of videos of healings on YouTube, ranging from really mild stuff to more spectacular things. For you to claim miracles don't exist when there are a large number of claims is unreasonable-- given the fact that the Bible teaches that the Spirit gifts individuals to do such things. If you were an atheist, I would expect the skepticism. If you claim to believe the Bible is inspired by God, your position is not reasonable.
Again, if the Spirit only chose to give that gift once every thousand years, your not having seen it doesn't prove the Spirit won't gift someone to do such a thing. The problem is you are trying to limit what the Spirit will do by your past experience. It is disrespectful to God.
Personal attacks? I am just pointing out what you have written. I apologized because someone emailed me and told me that you had posted about coming out of the hospital for a certain condition that I had asked you about previously. I didn't know about your medical situation. So I apologized for bringing that up.
You say I post with disdain. I want to see you repent and live a productive Christian life where you encourage people instead of twisting scripture and accusing people of dishonesty when you have no evidence to support your claim. I don't hate you. I want you to repent and live a productive Christian life.
I don't see how it would do any good to research miracles for you. One of the issues here that would probably help you most, IMO, that has come up in this conversation is your tendancy to either accuse the brethren or to try to get people to view them with suspicion. I don't know much about Michael W. Smith's relationship with the Lord. Agnes Dei is a nice song and all, but trying to make people think he may be into the occult because his album has some letters that use a script that looks a bit like runes is ridiculous. Trying to make people suspicious of Kay Authur because an arched bridged in the background looks a bit like an eye is also ridiculous.
We aren't talking about mythical beasts. We are talking about whether the Spirit operates in the same way in the church as the Bible teaches He does. If you don't see any evidence for miracles, and you believe the Bible on this topic, you should allow for the fact that the Spirit might gift an individual to heal or do a miracle. You wouldn't then accuse anyone who has experienced this of being a liar or make blanket statements that such things do not exist. It is an issue of the fear of the Lord, and bearing false witness of God. How dare you say the Spirit will not do things the Bible teaches that He does? Where is the fear of God in that?
You twist stuff. We are all supposed to be 'ready to give an answer for the hope that is in you'. We hope for things we see not. You want evidence of things seen. We hope for the resurrection and the return of Christ. Again, you are being very loose with the scriptures, trying to stretch it to some principle you want it to mean so you can argue with people.
You never answered my question as to whether you have had conversations in your adult life that ended up in fist fights or people calling you names? Does this happen to you, and if so, how often does it happen?
There is no contradiction there. Think it through. Hint: you can do things you are not obligated to do. Btw, I have offered you evidence. You rejected and called people names.
I could give you a contact through a PM if you were sincere and wanting to look for answers, not looking for someone to call names. If you repented and apologized for the things you said about that preacher who prayed for the sick and others, maybe I'd consider it. I don't want to give you more names to drag through the mud, and no matter how you try to twist the Bible, I am not obligated to.
Which has evidence for healing and miracles that you don't bother to look up. I've seen plenty of videos that offer evidence worthy of further investigation if one is into investigating such things. I don't want to be asked to account for everyone's video just because I post a link on the one hand. On the other, I don't want to give you more names of people to randomly accuse. You don't need any solid evidence to accuse people, based on previous conversations.
I was born after the moon landings and accepted the offical story growing up. I saw one of those conspiracy theory videos about it. Most of the evidence was hard to follow and didn't really seem to make much of a case, but there were a few things. 'Facts' in this videos on YouTube could be false facts, not what really happened. But the fact that it was easier, cheaper, etc. to fake the moon landings than to actually do them, that there was a military motivation to do so is reason enough for me to keep an open mind to a conspiracy theory. It doesn't effect my daily life, so I have no real motivation to research the details of the missions.
No, I'm saying that you shouldn't be so 'bold' about rejecting something the Bible presents as a work of the Spirit because you haven't seen it. There are at least dozens of videos of healings on YouTube, ranging from really mild stuff to more spectacular things. For you to claim miracles don't exist when there are a large number of claims is unreasonable-- given the fact that the Bible teaches that the Spirit gifts individuals to do such things. If you were an atheist, I would expect the skepticism. If you claim to believe the Bible is inspired by God, your position is not reasonable.
Again, if the Spirit only chose to give that gift once every thousand years, your not having seen it doesn't prove the Spirit won't gift someone to do such a thing. The problem is you are trying to limit what the Spirit will do by your past experience. It is disrespectful to God.
Personal attacks? I am just pointing out what you have written. I apologized because someone emailed me and told me that you had posted about coming out of the hospital for a certain condition that I had asked you about previously. I didn't know about your medical situation. So I apologized for bringing that up.
You say I post with disdain. I want to see you repent and live a productive Christian life where you encourage people instead of twisting scripture and accusing people of dishonesty when you have no evidence to support your claim. I don't hate you. I want you to repent and live a productive Christian life.
M
Good grief. The question alone reflects dishonesty, I have to say. You've tried this schtick on me a number of times. As though you don't understand the point of our position...that we're not SEEING any of these signs you claim exist. And so when we simply inquire as to where we might be able to observe these signs...you trot out your "stern confrontational" schtick...wagging a disapproving finger at us: "Oh ye of little faith". Ridiculous...and dishonest, essentially. It is the Pentecostals who require signs. Not me and DJ2.
M
Your "lady lurching and staggering" is not an example of a Jesus-style "ZAP" miracle. I have explained that to you repeatedly and at this point it is nothing less than dishonesty for you to feign "indignation" that I shot down your non-"Jesus-style" alleged "miracle".
You wouldn't even have to "research" anything if there were still ongoing apostle-style and Jesus-style miracles. There would be uproar throughout the world, at this point, 2000 years in. There would be world famous 'celebrity' healers that everyone knew of...and who would perform staggeringly spectacular healings and resurrections just as they did in those early days.
Bro, you are in the middle of the ultimate "emperor who wore no clothes" scenario. (Did DJ2 refer to that analogy?) This whole discussion is ridiculous. But...for the sake of 2 or 3 lurkers who may be here, I will forge bravely on (for a little while longer, at least).
My experience in this thread is that you are utterly uninformed about the entire topic of "wolves in sheep's clothing"...and you tipped your hand when you tried to condescendingly lecture me and made the unintentionally hilarious remark that "runic is the name for alphabets". You don't have the foggiest idea what you're talking about. But...you want to turn tables because you're getting frustrated about the actual topic at hand. The malice is apparent.
Your position, by the way, is completely unbiblical and counter-biblical. According to the Bible, there ARE hidden wolves...they ARE spectacularly deceptive...and they DO make an unprecedentedly huge appearance in the last days. If you don't like some of the people I have on my suspects list...howzabout YOU come up with some suspects? Name just one spectacularly concealed wolf who is nevertheless believed to be a genuine Christian leader by 99% of the Christian community. I'll be standing by. Meanwhile, there is now a dedicated thread on the subject. Knock yourself out.
That's a dishonest dodge. I didn't claim we WERE discussing mythical beasts. It's simply an analogy. A tool for helping two parties come to a better understanding on the issue. But you don't want a better understanding...particularly since this Unicorn analogy exposes your error.
Wait a minute - that's YOUR twist - LOL! This is a very simple scripture, with a very simply message and a very simply application...and you utterly butcher the passage in your quest to dodge the application it has to your "tongues-speaking" claims.
Let me needlessly explain the obvious: When we have hope, that hope grows out of beliefs that we hold to. What are our beliefs? Well...they are the things we need to "give reason" for. Your writhing, wriggling evasion of this simple passage with its simple application...is dubious, to say the least.
To claim your "hope" isn't bolstered by the confirming miracles you claim to observe and participate in...is nonsensical.
So when someone like me asks you to give a reason for the hope and the attendant beliefs...all I get from you is reviling, rebuke and defamation. I'm supposedly headed towards the "hottest hell"...I am an "accuser of the brethren"...in other words, I am literally satanic. On and on you go.
Yes, I usually have fistfights once or twice a week.
God never played hide-and-seek with miracles back during the days when they were happening. If you pulled aside a believer back then and asked him about evidence of miracles, he wouldn't say "shhhh - I'll slip you a secret note after the Sunday service". Your "PM" proposal is nonsense and, in fact, yet more evidence of non-straightforwardness. The behavior of 'snipe hunting' pranksters.
Just put the evidence out in the open if there IS any evidence. And, of course, there isn't. There should be a huge array of the top healers on national TV every Sunday. Back in the days when there WERE miracles, they made a HUGE splash. It was a sensation. No "sensations" today.
That is such a ridiculous statement as to be intentionally dishonest...your M.O. unfortunately, from my experience. I haven't "bothered" to look any of this up? Do I seem like a guy who doesn't spend much time on the Internet - LOL? Pure baloney. Intentional baloney.
Jesus' miracles didn't require "further investigation" - LOL. We wouldn't even need YouTube videos if this stuff was actually still going on. Each and every city in America would have at least one church where the "Spirit of God was working" (the way Pentecostals would describe it, I guess). I could drive across town and see for myself...which, BELIEVE ME, I would love to experience.
With this YouTube thing...I'm just trying to at least give you a crack at producing something even REMOTELY interesting or credible...but the best you offered was an abysmal failure (the lurching lady) as far as Jesus-style miracles go. And now you're blaming me for your disastrous YouTube offering! Wow.
What...in THE world...are you aimlessly chit-chatting about? I am flabbergasted at how much effort you put into elaborate non-answers. You completely dodged the point of my two analogies. I guess I can understand why. But...wow.
Fella, read this very slowly and carefully: There is...nothing to "reject". I'm not rejecting anything. Good grief - this is both hilarious and sad. If I go on YouTube right now and type in "tongues speaking" (and/or a number of phrase variations)...what comes up is a horror show. Even you would be aghast, I suspect (or hope). If you want to categorize that as "bold rejection"...yes, you nailed it.
But a Jesus-style miracle that was credible and verifiable? When did I reject that? That's another unfair and dishonest remark. That woman lurching and staggering and hobbling...was NOT a Jesus-style instantaneous miracle healing. Those are no longer going on. So I have reasonably surmised and concluded.
I'm not "limiting" anything. It's just that nothing is happening. The world is devoid of these miracles...as far as my billions of eyeballs can see. You claim you have video evidence but will now not let me know where to find them. Great. Thanks much.
I have not the foggiest idea what you're talking about. I have no "condition". Who in the world would have PM'd you about my "condition"?
What a coincidence: I want to see you repent. So, now what?
You wouldn't even have to "research" anything if there were still ongoing apostle-style and Jesus-style miracles. There would be uproar throughout the world, at this point, 2000 years in. There would be world famous 'celebrity' healers that everyone knew of...and who would perform staggeringly spectacular healings and resurrections just as they did in those early days.
Bro, you are in the middle of the ultimate "emperor who wore no clothes" scenario. (Did DJ2 refer to that analogy?) This whole discussion is ridiculous. But...for the sake of 2 or 3 lurkers who may be here, I will forge bravely on (for a little while longer, at least).
My experience in this thread is that you are utterly uninformed about the entire topic of "wolves in sheep's clothing"...and you tipped your hand when you tried to condescendingly lecture me and made the unintentionally hilarious remark that "runic is the name for alphabets". You don't have the foggiest idea what you're talking about. But...you want to turn tables because you're getting frustrated about the actual topic at hand. The malice is apparent.
Your position, by the way, is completely unbiblical and counter-biblical. According to the Bible, there ARE hidden wolves...they ARE spectacularly deceptive...and they DO make an unprecedentedly huge appearance in the last days. If you don't like some of the people I have on my suspects list...howzabout YOU come up with some suspects? Name just one spectacularly concealed wolf who is nevertheless believed to be a genuine Christian leader by 99% of the Christian community. I'll be standing by. Meanwhile, there is now a dedicated thread on the subject. Knock yourself out.
That's a dishonest dodge. I didn't claim we WERE discussing mythical beasts. It's simply an analogy. A tool for helping two parties come to a better understanding on the issue. But you don't want a better understanding...particularly since this Unicorn analogy exposes your error.
Wait a minute - that's YOUR twist - LOL! This is a very simple scripture, with a very simply message and a very simply application...and you utterly butcher the passage in your quest to dodge the application it has to your "tongues-speaking" claims.
Let me needlessly explain the obvious: When we have hope, that hope grows out of beliefs that we hold to. What are our beliefs? Well...they are the things we need to "give reason" for. Your writhing, wriggling evasion of this simple passage with its simple application...is dubious, to say the least.
To claim your "hope" isn't bolstered by the confirming miracles you claim to observe and participate in...is nonsensical.
So when someone like me asks you to give a reason for the hope and the attendant beliefs...all I get from you is reviling, rebuke and defamation. I'm supposedly headed towards the "hottest hell"...I am an "accuser of the brethren"...in other words, I am literally satanic. On and on you go.
Yes, I usually have fistfights once or twice a week.
God never played hide-and-seek with miracles back during the days when they were happening. If you pulled aside a believer back then and asked him about evidence of miracles, he wouldn't say "shhhh - I'll slip you a secret note after the Sunday service". Your "PM" proposal is nonsense and, in fact, yet more evidence of non-straightforwardness. The behavior of 'snipe hunting' pranksters.
Just put the evidence out in the open if there IS any evidence. And, of course, there isn't. There should be a huge array of the top healers on national TV every Sunday. Back in the days when there WERE miracles, they made a HUGE splash. It was a sensation. No "sensations" today.
That is such a ridiculous statement as to be intentionally dishonest...your M.O. unfortunately, from my experience. I haven't "bothered" to look any of this up? Do I seem like a guy who doesn't spend much time on the Internet - LOL? Pure baloney. Intentional baloney.
Jesus' miracles didn't require "further investigation" - LOL. We wouldn't even need YouTube videos if this stuff was actually still going on. Each and every city in America would have at least one church where the "Spirit of God was working" (the way Pentecostals would describe it, I guess). I could drive across town and see for myself...which, BELIEVE ME, I would love to experience.
With this YouTube thing...I'm just trying to at least give you a crack at producing something even REMOTELY interesting or credible...but the best you offered was an abysmal failure (the lurching lady) as far as Jesus-style miracles go. And now you're blaming me for your disastrous YouTube offering! Wow.
What...in THE world...are you aimlessly chit-chatting about? I am flabbergasted at how much effort you put into elaborate non-answers. You completely dodged the point of my two analogies. I guess I can understand why. But...wow.
Fella, read this very slowly and carefully: There is...nothing to "reject". I'm not rejecting anything. Good grief - this is both hilarious and sad. If I go on YouTube right now and type in "tongues speaking" (and/or a number of phrase variations)...what comes up is a horror show. Even you would be aghast, I suspect (or hope). If you want to categorize that as "bold rejection"...yes, you nailed it.
But a Jesus-style miracle that was credible and verifiable? When did I reject that? That's another unfair and dishonest remark. That woman lurching and staggering and hobbling...was NOT a Jesus-style instantaneous miracle healing. Those are no longer going on. So I have reasonably surmised and concluded.
I'm not "limiting" anything. It's just that nothing is happening. The world is devoid of these miracles...as far as my billions of eyeballs can see. You claim you have video evidence but will now not let me know where to find them. Great. Thanks much.
I have not the foggiest idea what you're talking about. I have no "condition". Who in the world would have PM'd you about my "condition"?
What a coincidence: I want to see you repent. So, now what?