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Thread: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

  1. #61
    Senior Member notuptome's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    Quote Originally Posted by CS1 View Post
    exegesis would be the full context of Acts and what Peter had said which some chose to over look. and what also happen to the gentiles recorded in Acts 2:16-18

    But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
    And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

    Verse 21: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Veerse 39:
    For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

    This was never just for the Jews which is shown in the book of Acts. To get Proper exegesis one has to take the full account of all who had the very same experience and the context of each.
    We are in agreement that the promise of the Holy Spirit is to all believers. Where were have disagreement is that the promise of prophecy, visions and dreaming of dreams is in context to Israel. It reads not all but your where the your is Israel.

    We know that Joel's prophecy is not complete because the signs in the heavens were not present but will be present at the close of the age.

    Verse 39 is the promise of the Holy Spirit in the matter of salvation not signs and or wonders. Verse 21 makes the context clear regarding the Holy Spirit and salvation.

    Peter and Joel do not give license for the Gentiles to claim to speak in tongues.

    In every case here in Acts where we have Gentiles getting saved and receiving the Holy Spirit where they speak in tongues it is as a witness to the Jews who were present. This is explicitly laid out in Acts where Peter is reporting back that Gentiles are being saved and receiving the Holy Spirit just as the disciples in the upper room.

    Acts 11: 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
    15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
    16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
    17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
    18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass
    use it to examine yourself not others.

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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen63 View Post
    I agree.
    Act 2 was never about tongues on the Day of Pentecost..... it was about the gift of prophecy. Joel stated matter-of-factly that all believers when receiving the baptism would prophesy.
    Can it be that you missinterprote Joel 2? To whom Joel is talking? To christians? To all mankind ? To Jews? Acts 2 was only a partly fullfillment ore did you found that all Jews in Jerusalem could prophesy? If you read Joel 2 and the context you muSt confess that the fullfillment not happened till today!

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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    Quote Originally Posted by sevenseas View Post
    you are consistent in what you write

    and apparently well known for your stand against tongues.

    by the way, it is FRUIT not fruits of the Holy Spirit. The fruit is the exemplifying of the life of Christ in us. This, is done by the Holy Spirit and the same way He created that life in the disciples and others throughout the New Testament

    you are defending what you personally believe.

    you are not representing what scripture teaches

    you take every opportunity to state your views. they are simply your personal views and erroneous teaching that has led you to believe a lie
    Quote Originally Posted by sevenseas View Post
    why of course

    your is a first hand account of cessationism

    I don't have to show you anything because literally dozens have shown you already and you always say the same thing

    and it is not in agreement with scripture

    why would Jesus speak in tongues?

    but if He was going to, wouldn't that occur after the Holy Spirit had fallen on the 40? oh but wait! Jesus said He had to ascend back to heaven so that the Father could send the Holy Spirit

    Jesus walked on water. Does that mean you are going to?
    What shall I say? A man is known by his friends and distinguished by his enemies.

    Those who claim to have demonstrated from scripture that tongues are for today have taken a very unsound interpretation and application of the scriptures for their support. The whole of scripture teaches that they have drawn an incorrect conclusion on the matter of tongues in the modern church.

    It is not a salvation issue so it only effects Spiritual growth.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass
    use it to examine yourself not others.

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    Senior Member Rockrz's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    it's a more up to date translation of the same manuscripts if I'm not mistaken.
    You are mistaken... almost all newer translations are being changed to insert various false doctrine such as being gay is OK and other such nonsense.

    The best way to go is to use the Interlinear Bible so you can see the original greek and hebrew

    Sure the KJV has a few errors when compared to the original languages, but it far less errors than these newer translations such as the so-called message bible, the NIV (nearly inspired version), and the queen james version... you know, they gotta make the lgbt "community" feel like they are accepted by God which is what osteen says about gay peoples... God accepts them.

    That's the kind of doctrine one gets when using these newer transactions, not to mention full blown universalism.

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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    We are in agreement that the promise of the Holy Spirit is to all believers. Where were have disagreement is that the promise of prophecy, visions and dreaming of dreams is in context to Israel. It reads not all but your where the your is Israel.

    We know that Joel's prophecy is not complete because the signs in the heavens were not present but will be present at the close of the age.

    Verse 39 is the promise of the Holy Spirit in the matter of salvation not signs and or wonders. Verse 21 makes the context clear regarding the Holy Spirit and salvation.

    Peter and Joel do not give license for the Gentiles to claim to speak in tongues.

    In every case here in Acts where we have Gentiles getting saved and receiving the Holy Spirit where they speak in tongues it is as a witness to the Jews who were present. This is explicitly laid out in Acts where Peter is reporting back that Gentiles are being saved and receiving the Holy Spirit just as the disciples in the upper room.

    Acts 11: 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
    15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
    16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
    17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
    18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    you are taking Acts and going backwards if your point is correct then why Did The Holy Spirit Lead Paul to write the letters to Corinthians?
    after the day of Pentecost what happen as the Book of Acts tells the gentiles received just as the Jews did Acts 10:45

    And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Acts 11:1
    And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

    Acts 13:46

    Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but


    gal 3:`14

    That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockrz View Post
    You are mistaken... almost all newer translations are being changed to insert various false doctrine such as being gay is OK and other such nonsense.

    The best way to go is to use the Interlinear Bible so you can see the original greek and hebrew

    Sure the KJV has a few errors when compared to the original languages, but it far less errors than these newer translations such as the so-called message bible, the NIV (nearly inspired version), and the queen james version... you know, they gotta make the lgbt "community" feel like they are accepted by God which is what osteen says about gay peoples... God accepts them.

    That's the kind of doctrine one gets when using these newer transactions, not to mention full blown universalism.

    there is no errors LOL in the Bible only language interpretations from Hebrew & Greek to English . because of the limited vocabulary of English that is why we study to have a clearer understanding.
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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    dear notuptome

    what CS1 said and not because he is CS1

    plus

    It is not a salvation issue so it only effects Spiritual growth.
    if we are in error, it could not be more serious and vice versa

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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    What shall I say? A man is known by his friends and distinguished by his enemies.

    Those who claim to have demonstrated from scripture that tongues are for today have taken a very unsound interpretation and application of the scriptures for their support. The whole of scripture teaches that they have drawn an incorrect conclusion on the matter of tongues in the modern church.

    It is not a salvation issue so it only effects Spiritual growth.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    you see there you go with insults I thought we were having a good convo :/ .

    you see us as the enemy ? that is your right .
    it Don't mean a thing if you an't got the King

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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    I will address the notion of "the Apostolic age" and how, supposedly, certain gifts such as the gift of tongues ceased.

    DON'T GET IT TWISTED
    ------------------------

    The gift of tongues ceased (false): 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 King James Version (KJV)

    8
    Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
    11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
    12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

    First lets make something clear. This verse doesn't say that tongues have ceased, it says "they shall cease." Meaning they will cease at a certain time, but this verse does not say they "have ceased." So then, what is the criteria by which the gift ceases? When will the gift of tongues, along with knowledge and prophecy cease?

    Look at verse 10, it says "when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." What is "that which is perfect" in reference to? The Cessationist's perspective is that it refers to the Bible, the completed canon of scripture. There are some problems with this though, as we will see that to take such a perspective would contradict the Apostle Paul's words. It forces a dilemma.

    "What", might you ask, "is the dilemma?" Read verse 12. The rebuttal to the Cessatonist is the now and the then. Along with that the apostle Paul speaks of being "face to face." With what? Or better stated, with whom? "That which is perfect." You see, if that which is perfect is in reference to the Bible we have a problem.

    The Apostle Paul died in ad 62-64, which is hundreds of years before the completed canon of scripture (the Bible) came to be. How is it that Paul prophesied that he would be "face to face" with "that which is perfect" and how now he "sees through a glass darkly" but then "face to face" he would "know even as also I am known" if it refers to the Bible?

    Either the Apostle Paul gave a false prophecy or the Cessationist is wrong in how they interpret "that which is perfect" to refer to the Bible. Since the Apostle Paul was used by God and inspired by the Holy Spirit I lean towards Cessationists having it wrong and this is in reference, possibly, the 2nd Coming of Christ.

    Either way, verse 12 puts to bed the Cessationsist's argument that it refers to the completed New Testament as he didn't live to see it face to face.

    So what does this mean?:
    1 Corinthians 14:39 King James Version (KJV)

    39
    Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and
    forbid not to speak with tongues.

    This means that the gift of tongues hasn't ceased because "that which is perfect is come" hasn't yet happened, and therefore there still exists the three gifts defined in 1 Corinthians 13:8. Therefore, "forbid not to speak with tongues" as it is still a viable gift that the Holy Spirit distributes at His discretion for its manifestation unto the edification of self and others.

    The Apostolic Age ended therefore so did certain gifts (false):
    Ephesians 4:11-16King James Version (KJV)

    11
    And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
    15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
    16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

    These offices (and gifting) are still in operation today, because the body of Christ still needs edifying, perfecting, and the work of ministry still needs to be done. Not to mention that the gift of tongues wasn't something only the apostles did, but many of the disciples (at Pentecost) did it and even new converts spoke in tongues. Hence, even if there was an apostolic age to insinuate that at its end certain gifts that weren't only for the apostles ceased is just horrendous logic.

    Cessationism ends up quenching the Holy Spirit because it tries to dictate how the Lord works and limit Him with the manifestations He has given to profit all. God wants us edifying one another, and the gift of tongues is one such manifestation that does that through interpretation. Once again, forbid not to speak in tongues as the Lord saw it as an essential gift to bestow to the saints along with the other gifts.

    Last edited by BenFTW; 1 Week Ago at 08:57 PM.
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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    Quote Originally Posted by BenFTW View Post
    DONT GET IT TWISTED
    -------------------------

    I'd like to make a list of things the gift of tongues is and is not, so down below you will find verses defining the gift and also possibly addressing false notions of what it is.

    The gift of tongues' purpose: 1 Corinthians 14:1-5 King James Version (KJV)

    14
    Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

    2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
    3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
    4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
    5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

    You'll notice from the above verses that the gift of tongues has a purpose and that purpose is to edify the tongue speaker and also the Church. It is meant to edify oneself and to be used to minister to others through interpretation.

    The gift of tongues has multifaceted uses: 1 Corinthians 14:12-17 King James Version (KJV)

    12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
    13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
    14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
    15 What is it then? I willpray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
    16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
    17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

    You'll see above that the gift of tongues can be used to both pray and even sing. Tongues can be used to worship the Lord, but they can also be used to bless others while interpreting. So, in fact, one can pray in tongues, sing in tongues, and even minister to others in tongues (through interpretation).

    Please also note that the tongue speaker is encouraged to pray that they may interpret (meaning there is no separate interpreter, the tongue speaker himself/herself can interpret their own tongues granted interpretation is given by the Lord).

    The gift of tongues is only a language understood by man (false):
    1 Corinthians 14:2 King James Version (KJV)

    2
    For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

    Often you'll hear that the gift of tongues is only of human languages or of known languages (considering people believe it was an evangelistic tool used to speak to foreigners in their dialect). However we see clearly in the scripture above that the speaker of an unknown tongue is not speaking "unto men but unto God" and "no man understandeth him."

    Why? "In the spirit he speaketh mysteries", which means no one understands him unless what? Unless the tongues are supernaturally interpreted. I say supernaturally because the interpretation too, just as the gift of tongues, is a gift of the Spirit. So what we understand here is that the gift of tongues while it can be a known language (such as at Pentecost), it also serves a purpose other than what was accomplished at Pentecost (a sign). It as shown previously can be used for personal prayer, a message to the Church (in a gathering), and even worship/singing, none of which have to do with evangelism (for the most part).

    We should also consider that if we compare the gift of tongues at Pentecost to the gift of tongues spoken of in 1 Corinthians 14, you'll notice a difference between the two. One requires an interpreter and the other did not. At Pentecost the people heard the disciples speaking in their own language, no interpreter needed. At Corinth they were encouraged to use the gift of interpretation in tandem with the gift of tongues so that others may be edified. What reason would there be to interpret if you are already speaking in the language of the people supernaturally? It seems to me the language being spoken wasn't the people's language and people were "speaking mysteries in the Spirit" and they needed to be interpreted for the edification of the body of Christ.

    The gift of tongues is volitional (done at will): 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 King James Version (KJV)

    27
    If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

    28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

    What we see here is that the tongue speaker is encouraged and told to keep silent in the church and let him speak to himself and to God (if no interpreter is present to present to the church a message that edifies). In other words, "bridle your tongue" right? What does this imply? It informs us that the gift of tongues is not something that overtakes you, but is something you can do calmly and collected. It is volitional, and as you step out and start speaking then the Lord gives the utterance.

    Heres something to ponder. Why were the Corinthians being instructed in this manner? Were they out of order? Do you suppose that there needed to be guidelines because the opposite of order would occur? People speaking in tongues without interpretation? So, this being the case, it inform us that the gift is something we control, it is volitional (done at will). Do it wisely and in order.

    Do not Forbid Speaking in Tongues:
    1 Corinthians 14:39 King James Version (KJV)
    39
    Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

    Thats rather straightforward. Tongues are still for today and you shouldn't have a bias against them so long as they are done in order and in a church setting for the edification of the body of Christ.

    REALLLLY excellent post here Ben, one of the best ive ever read or heard on the gift of tongues...Kudos and God bless buddy
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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    I say if a Christian does not want tongues, then so be it. Just one thing, the gifts of the Spirit were given to the church, and the place where some claim God removed the gifts is a clear perversion of scripture. The gifts of the Spirit will cease when we do not need them anymore, that is when we are in Heaven with the Lord. I have know strong Christians who never spoke in tongues and messed up Christians who did speak in tongues, so I am not for or against tongues, just for truth.
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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    My point is not in denying the gifts, but placing them in conjunction with the Word being the life bearing property. Paul deals with the dangers of the gift of speaking with tongues, and the superiority of the gift of forthtelling the truth in such a way that all can understand it. We can best follow Paul's line of thought by analyzing the section. He begins by declaring that tongues are addressed to God and not to men, for men cannot understand them. If a man exercises this gift of tongues he may be enriching his own spiritual experience, but... he is certainly not enriching the souls of the congregation because to them it is unintelligible; on the other hand, the gift of forth-telling the truth produces something which everyone can understand and which profits every man's soul.


    Paul goes on to use certain illustrations and analogies. He is going to come to them; but if he came speaking with tongues what use would that be? They would have no idea what he was talking about. Take the case of a musical instrument. If it obeys the normal laws of harmony, it can produce a melody; but, if it does not, it produces simply a chaos of sound. Take the case of a trumpet. If it plays the correct call, it can summon men to advance, to retreat, to sleep, to wake. But if it produces simply a medley of meaningless sound, no man can know what to do. There are in this world many kinds of speech; but if two men meet each other who do not understand each other's language, the speech of each sounds like gibberish to the other and makes no sense.

    Paul does not deny that the gift of tongues exists. Nor can anyone say that with him it is a case of bitterness toward them, for he possesses the gift more than anyone else does; but he insists that any gift to be of value must benefit the whole congregation, and therefore, if the gift of tongues is used, it is useless unless it is interpreted. Whether a man is speaking or praying or singing, he must do it not only with his spirit, but with his mind. He must know what is going on and others must be able to understand it. And so Paul reaches the blunt conclusion that in a Christian congregation it is better to speak a few intelligible sentences than to pour out a flood of unintelligible sounds.

    Out of this difficult section emerge certain valuable truths.

    1 Corinthians 14:3: succinctly lays down the aim of all preaching. It is threefold:

    (1) It must aim to build up; to increase a man's knowledge of Christian truth and his ability to live the Christian life.

    (2) It must aim to encourage. In every group of people there are those who are depressed and discouraged. Dreams will not come true; effort seems to have achieved so little; self-examination serves to show nothing but failures and inadequacies. Within the Christian fellowship, a man should find something to cheer his heart and nerve his arm. It was said of a certain preacher that he preached the gospel as if he were announcing a deep depression off Iceland. A service may begin by humbling a man through showing him his sin, but it is a failure unless it ends by pointing him to the grace of God that can enable him to conquer it.

    (3) It must aim to comfort. "Never morning wore to evening but some heart did break." There are what Virgil called, "the tears of things." In any company of people there will always be some whom life has hurt; and within the Christian fellowship they must be able to find beauty for their ashes, the oil of joy for mourning and the garment of praise for the spirit of their heaviness.


    1 Corinthians 14:5: gives us the things which for Paul were the background and the substance of all preaching.

    (1) It comes from a direct revelation from God. No man can speak to others unless God has first spoken to him. It was said of a great preacher that ever and again he paused as if listening for a voice. We never give to men or to scholars truth which we have produced, or even discovered; we transmit truth which has been given to us.

    (2) It may bring some special knowledge. No man can possibly be an expert in everything, but every man has special knowledge of something. It has been said that any man can write an interesting book if he will simply set down completely honestly all that has happened to him. The experiences of life give something special to each one of us, and the most effective preaching is simply witness to what we have found to be true.

    (3) It consists of forthtelling the truth. In the early Church the first preaching given to any fellowship was a simple proclamation of the facts of the Christian story. Certain things are beyond argument. "Tell me of your certainties," said Goethe, "I have doubts enough of my own." However we may finish, it is well to begin with the facts of Christ.

    (4) It goes on to teaching; There comes a time when a man has to ask, "What is the meaning of these facts?" Simply because we are thinking creatures, religion implies theology. And it may well be that the faith of many people collapses and the loyalty of many people grows cold because they have not thought things out and thought them through.

    From the whole passage two broad principles regarding Christian worship emerge:

    (1) Worship must never be selfish. All that is done in it must be done for the sake of all. No man in worship, whether he leads it or shares in it, has any right to direct it according to his own personal preferences. He must seek the good of the whole worshipping fellowship. The great test of any part of worship is, "Will this help everyone?" It is not, "Will this display my special gifts?" It is, "Will this bring all here nearer to each other and nearer to God?"

    (2) Worship must be intelligible. The great things are essentially the simple things; the noblest language is essentially the simplest language. In the end only what satisfies my mind can comfort my heart, and only what my mind can grasp can bring strength to my life.

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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    Quote Originally Posted by BenFTW View Post
    I will address the notion of "the Apostolic age" and how, supposedly, certain gifts such as the gift of tongues ceased.

    DON'T GET IT TWISTED
    ------------------------

    The gift of tongues ceased (false): 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 King James Version (KJV)

    8
    Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
    11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
    12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

    First lets make something clear. This verse doesn't say that tongues have ceased, it says "they shall cease." Meaning they will cease at a certain time, but this verse does not say they "have ceased." So then, what is the criteria by which the gift ceases? When will the gift of tongues, along with knowledge and prophecy cease?

    Look at verse 10, it says "when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." What is "that which is perfect" in reference to? The Cessationist's perspective is that it refers to the Bible, the completed canon of scripture. There are some problems with this though, as we will see that to take such a perspective would contradict the Apostle Paul's words. It forces a dilemma.

    "What", might you ask, "is the dilemma?" Read verse 12. The rebuttal to the Cessatonist is the now and the then. Along with that the apostle Paul speaks of being "face to face." With what? Or better stated, with whom? "That which is perfect." You see, if that which is perfect is in reference to the Bible we have a problem.

    The Apostle Paul died in ad 62-64, which is hundreds of years before the completed canon of scripture (the Bible) came to be. How is it that Paul prophesied that he would be "face to face" with "that which is perfect" and how now he "sees through a glass darkly" but then "face to face" he would "know even as also I am known" if it refers to the Bible?

    Either the Apostle Paul gave a false prophecy or the Cessationist is wrong in how they interpret "that which is perfect" to refer to the Bible. Since the Apostle Paul was used by God and inspired by the Holy Spirit I lean towards Cessationists having it wrong and this is in reference, possibly, the 2nd Coming of Christ.

    Either way, verse 12 puts to bed the Cessationsist's argument that it refers to the completed New Testament as he didn't live to see it face to face.

    So what does this mean?:
    1 Corinthians 14:39 King James Version (KJV)

    39
    Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and
    forbid not to speak with tongues.

    This means that the gift of tongues hasn't ceased because "that which is perfect is come" hasn't yet happened, and therefore there still exists the three gifts defined in 1 Corinthians 13:8. Therefore, "forbid not to speak with tongues" as it is still a viable gift that the Holy Spirit distributes at His discretion for its manifestation unto the edification of self and others.

    The Apostolic Age ended therefore so did certain gifts (false):
    Ephesians 4:11-16King James Version (KJV)

    11
    And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

    12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
    15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
    16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

    These offices (and gifting) are still in operation today, because the body of Christ still needs edifying, perfecting, and the work of ministry still needs to be done. Not to mention that the gift of tongues wasn't something only the apostles did, but many of the disciples (at Pentecost) did it and even new converts spoke in tongues. Hence, even if there was an apostolic age to insinuate that at its end certain gifts that weren't only for the apostles ceased is just horrendous logic.

    Cessationism ends up quenching the Holy Spirit because it tries to dictate how the Lord works and limit Him with the manifestations He has given to profit all. God wants us edifying one another, and the gift of tongues is one such manifestation that does that through interpretation. Once again, forbid not to speak in tongues as the Lord saw it as an essential gift to bestow to the saints along with the other gifts.

    What me wonders let me say in 3 Points:
    1. before the Pentecostal movement starts in 1900, speaking in tongues was no matter among christians. It wasn't taught in the churches.
    2. When the pentecostal movement startest speaking in tongues was taught as a proof to be baptized with the Holy Spirit. But it was not taught as a normal given gift like the other gifts which the bible mentioned. Which someone received when he became Christian.
    3. You have to take scripture out of context and purpose to proof that the 2nd baptising with the Holy Spirit and as sign for that speaking in tongues is biblical today.
    The conclusions for me because of this 3 points is, that I cant trust such a theology. And that speaking in tongues is not for us today.

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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    Quote Originally Posted by followjesus View Post
    REALLLLY excellent post here Ben, one of the best ive ever read or heard on the gift of tongues...Kudos and God bless buddy
    Hey thanks man. Glad to be of service.

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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    14 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
    2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
    3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
    4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
    5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

    You'll notice from the above verses that the gift of tongues has a purpose and that purpose is to edify the tongue speaker and also the Church. It is meant to edify oneself and to be used to minister to others through interpretation.



    I have to disagree a bit on this – in this section of his letter, Paul’s main concern is clarity, understanding and intelligibility during a public worship service such that everyone (i.e. the ‘church’) there can benefit; not just the person speaking. If I show up at a public worship and start praying aloud in Welsh and no one at that particular worship service speaks it, only God is going to understand it and the only person it’s benefitting is me. To everyone else there, I’m speaking ‘mysteries’.

    The person speaking is simply speaking in his own native language which no one at the worship service understands or speaks. In that sense he is speaking only to God since no one there speaks his language – to them he is speaking “mysteries”. Nowhere in the passage does remotely it suggest the speaker does not understand what he himself is saying.

    The gift of tongues has multifaceted uses: 1 Corinthians 14:12-17 King James Version (KJV)

    12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

    13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
    14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
    15 What is it then? I willpray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
    16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
    17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

    You'll see above that the gift of tongues can be used to both pray and even sing. Tongues can be used to worship the Lord, but they can also be used to bless others while interpreting. So, in fact, one can pray in tongues, sing in tongues, and even minister to others in tongues (through interpretation).

    Please also note that the tongue speaker is encouraged to pray that they may interpret (meaning there is no separate interpreter, the tongue speaker himself/herself can interpret their own tongues granted interpretation is given by the Lord).




    Not sure why it’s notable that one can sing as well as speak – any language that it spoken can be sung.

    Verses 13 & 14 – To paraphrase this a bit, “If a person speaks in a foreign language (as his first language), let him pray that he can adequately translate what he’s saying into the language of Corinth (Greek)”.

    It seems somewhat odd at first, but when you take into consideration the intricacies of translating (even something that appears easy and straightforward at first glance), it’s really no wonder that Paul admonishes the person to pray for guidance that he may translate it (adequately and correctly) into Greek. Translating prayer from one language to another is particularly difficult due to the many nuances expressed in the original language that may or may not be able to be expressed ion the target language.

    Wiith respect to verse 14, I am going to quote from an article (A New Look At Tongues Part II) by Robert Zerhusen who explains it much better than I can:

    “1 Corinthians 14:14 is probably the main text used to argue that the language speaker did not understand his language. Paul says that if he should speak in a language (without translation), "my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful [akarpos]." Lenski takes akarpos as passive: "my nous or understanding" is inactive and thus akarpos--"barren," "unfruitful," producing no distinct thoughts".

    Paul could however have been using akarpos in the active sense:

    A decision upon its meaning centers in akarpos ("unfruitful") whether the adjective is passive in sense, meaning the speaker himself receives no benefit, or active in sense, meaning his nous (understanding) provides no benefit to others...The view that assigns akarpos a meaning of "produces nothing, contributes nothing to the process"... is not convincing, because akarpos does not mean "inactive." It is a word for results and does not apply to the process through which the results are obtained. The present discussion does not center on the activity or nonactivity of the tongues speaker's mind, but rather on potential benefit derived by listeners.

    The whole context of 1 Corinthians 14 is the effect upon the hearers of untranslated languages.
    Paul’s concern is the edification of the group. Therefore, 14:14 should be taken as "My spirit prays but my mind does not produce fruit [in others]." This says nothing about whether or not the speaker understood his own utterance.”

    Obviously if one is simply speaking his/her own native language, all o the uses described above are equally as valid. There’s nothing here that does not suggest real language.


    The gift of tongues is only a language understood by man (false): 1 Corinthians 14:2 King James Version (KJV)

    2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue
    speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.



    See my comments under the first quote – again, there is nothing here that cannot be easily explained with
    reference to real language(s).

    There is no difference between “tongues” spoken at Pentecost and the “tongues” referred to in Paul’s letter.


    The gift of tongues is volitional (done at will): 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 King James Version (KJV)

    27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

    28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.


    Yes – real language(s) spoken at will by the speaker(s) – nothing odd here.

    Again, Paul is calling for clarity, understanding, and intelligibility at a public worship – to accomplish this, he sets a few ground rules down. This is why the Corinthians were being instructed in this manner; one can imagine that things must have gotten somewhat chaotic to precipitate (presumably) a letter to Paul describing the situation and asking for his advice on how to deal with what must have been an all too common occurrence in a multi-lingual city such as Corinth. If you live in a multi ethnic community where there are many other languages spoken besides English, go to your local supermarket on a Thursday to Friday afternoon or evening and you’ll get the basic idea of the situation - chaos J


    Do not Forbid Speaking in Tongues: 1 Corinthians 14:39 King James Version (KJV)
    39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and
    forbid not to speak with tongues.

    Thats rather straightforward. Tongues are still for today and you shouldn't have a bias against them so long as they are done in order and in a church setting for the edification of the body of Christ.



    Yes, it is straightforward – as you have it but more “you shouldn't have a bias against people speaking their native languages just because you don’t understand it, so long as it’s done in order and in a church setting for the edification of the body of Christ (i.e. what’s being said should really be translated (“interpreted”) into the language of Corinth – Greek).


    I’m digressing a bit here, but part of the issue for me is the insistence on using 16th century English and its misinterpretation into modern English – ‘tongue(s)’ is/was just an older term for ‘language’ – nothing more mysterious than that. We still occasionally use the term today to clearly refer to real languages. We speak of a person’s “mother tongue”, a “native tongue” of a particular country or region, etc. Clearly the reference is to real language. Furthermore, when Paul refers to “kinds of tongues” he uses the word “genos” which with respect to languages denotes different language families (‘genos’ - same root as “genealogy”); he’s not differentiating real languages from non-languages/heavenly languages, etc. Rather he is differentiating real languages from one another (Greek vs. Hebrew vs. Latin vs. Aramaic, vs. Babylonian, etc.)

    The term ‘interpretation’ equates to ‘translation’ – the difference between the two terms is a bit subtle; in a nutshell, both mean to render language ‘X’ into language ‘Y’; interpretation however typically refers to something spoken whilst translation typically refers to something written.

    We speak of someone needing an interpreter to discuss, say their medical concerns to a doctor, but if that same person has a document in his native language, a translator is called; not an interpreter. To “interpret a tongue” is simply to “translate a language”, nothing more.

    There are a few types of “tongues”; I classify them quite differently however: ‘tongues’ as described in the Bible, and the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic practice/understanding of ‘tongues’. The later also includes those practiced by many non-Christians in their various cultural traditions. Contrary to how many view it, Biblical tongues are in no way mutually inclusive with the latter; they are two totally different phenomenon.

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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    Quote Originally Posted by CS1 View Post
    you are taking Acts and going backwards if your point is correct then why Did The Holy Spirit Lead Paul to write the letters to Corinthians?
    after the day of Pentecost what happen as the Book of Acts tells the gentiles received just as the Jews did Acts 10:45

    And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Acts 11:1
    And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

    Acts 13:46

    Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but


    gal 3:`14

    That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


    Correct the promise to Abraham and the prophecy through Joel is that Gods Christ would save peoples as a seed to Abraham in all the nations not just Israel. Do not lose sight of the cultural tension between Jews and Gentiles at the time of the apostles. Jews were taught that Gentiles were lower than dogs and no self respecting Jew wanted anything to do with them. The Jews were shocked that Jehovah God would save Gentiles.

    The letter to the Corinthians was a letter of correction not a letter of commendation. We know that what ever was going on was out of order and causing problems. We do not have any information on who was doing exactly what but it is evident that there was enough error to go around. We do see disorder in the Lords communion 1 Cor chapter 11 and some living in open sin 1 Cor chapter 5 so there was a great tension in that church.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass
    use it to examine yourself not others.

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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    Quote Originally Posted by sevenseas View Post
    dear notuptome

    what CS1 said and not because he is CS1

    plus



    if we are in error, it could not be more serious and vice versa
    If you have a correct soteriology the peripheral stuff is of far less consequence.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass
    use it to examine yourself not others.

  18. #78
    Senior Member BenFTW's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    Quote Originally Posted by samuel23 View Post
    I say if a Christian does not want tongues, then so be it. Just one thing, the gifts of the Spirit were given to the church, and the place where some claim God removed the gifts is a clear perversion of scripture. The gifts of the Spirit will cease when we do not need them anymore, that is when we are in Heaven with the Lord. I have know strong Christians who never spoke in tongues and messed up Christians who did speak in tongues, so I am not for or against tongues, just for truth.
    I agree that Cessationism is wrong, on all counts.

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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    Quote Originally Posted by Kavik View Post
    -snip-

    The person speaking is simply speaking in his own native language which no one at the worship service understands or speaks. In that sense he is speaking only to God since no one there speaks his language – to them he is speaking “mysteries”. Nowhere in the passage does remotely it suggest the speaker does not understand what he himself is saying.

    -snip-
    1 Corinthians 14:13-15 King James Version (KJV)

    13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
    14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
    15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

    I would venture to say that speaks for itself, but lets just delve a little bit deeper. The context here is interpretation in order to come to an understanding of what is being said. Thats the point of interpretation. So, after verse 13 in verse 14 it plainly says, the Apostle Paul speaking personally, that "if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful", meaning he, himself, doesn't even understand what he is saying. Unless, as the context reveals, he interprets what he is saying. Which is reason to "pray that he may interpret."



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    Default Re: The Gift of Tongues: Don't Get It TWISTED

    Quote Originally Posted by BenFTW View Post
    I agree that Cessationism is wrong, on all counts.
    So the christians before 1900 were wrong! Except of some cults and sects, all denominations were Cessationists. With upcoming of the pentecostal movement this changes in the last 117 years. And the pentecostal movement binds the speaking in tongues with a second baptism with the Holy Spirit. A theology which was not taught in the NT.

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