Lets Talk Free Choice

SovereignGrace · May 17, 2017

Quote" God doesn't fit into men's finite concept of fairness. Many have never heard and have died lost. "

Romans 1-For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

And this is where the rubber meets the road for me with Calvinism. To say that people have been lost for eternity because they never heard the truth,never had the chance to know God is ridiculous. Consider this,Im born in the deepest darkest part of Africa and I have no access to a Bible,to the outer would and because of where Im born God allows me to die because no one can reach me with the truth?! What kind of cruel God is that! No, God can make Himself known,send an angel of light if necessary. Muslims are having visions of Jesus and coming to the truth.Paul himself was miraculously saved. No,the truth is there for us to find if we seek Him,according to the Bible. We are without excuse if we do not find Him.

Romans 1 shows man's condemnation apart from the Christ. Ppl know there is God via natural revelation, but that does not tell them that God came as a man and died upon the cross. Natural revelation saved nary a soul. There is no gospel in it, and it takes that to save ppl.

Meggido · May 17, 2017

Depleted said:

Wow, so you had the same experience we had from the other end of the spectrum. We were in a look-good church too. "Just don't do that anymore" mentality. And we were all kinds of embarrassed because no one bothered telling us how to do that. (Looking back, we realize it wasn't about bothering. They just couldn't get the actions to meet the words.)

In reformed, we constantly are taught, "You can't, but God can through you." And that's not a walk-on-water thing. That's a how-do-I-stay-saved thing.

Have you ever considered it wasn't the theology, but the people? I honestly didn't know reformed could be so bad until you and Rose told these stories. I think God guided us to a good church because we were weary from being whipped around so much for so long.

And, that really isn't to say non-reformed churches are evil. I honestly, honestly think God saves us even if everybody is wrong on this one. And considering Kayla and I just agreed completely on the obedience school/dog choosing post, I'm not all that convinced we're that far apart in the theology. I'm not even sure we are apart, other than a hiccup in time of who chose first. On the timeline, that one instance is just that -- an instant. We were choosing before and choosing after, but one brief moment God changed our choice to his choice. A hiccup -- possibly shorter than that.

I've known non-reformers who totally get that God works through us, too. So I know thinking we have to do it all by ourselves isn't part of the Arminian creed, (if either camp seriously had such creeds. lol) It really does seem like we both got the bad side at one point in time, but got out of it.

I don't think that points to the theology (either side) so much as it points to some people just like the shallow end of the pool. They don't want to commit, but they'd like the eternal-vacation plan, so they compromise.

Could it not be that, instead of theology?

Apart from him I cannot do anything! It is all his grace, his anointing, his leading, his teaching.
I can do nothing of myself. Anything I do is self-righteousness and is filthy rags.

But if the Spirit of him that raised Jesus from the dead, dwells in me!

Meggido · May 17, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

Nah, that is not true, because of what we see further down in Romans 1, that we are without excuse.

SovereignGrace · May 17, 2017

kaylagrl said:

Without God drawing, all would not want it.

SovereignGrace · May 17, 2017

Meggido said:

Exactly.None are without excuse.

Those dying never hearing the gospel, never knowing the Christ came in the flesh, are also without excuse. That's the context of Romans 1.

Marano · May 17, 2017

I believe man makes choices, likewise man has a will, the thing is neither our choices or our wills are free from sin apart from Christ.

Once we become a new creature then we have a new nature and our wills change so that we want to live for the glory of God.

kaylagrl · May 17, 2017

trofimus said:

Ok, I do not know where is the first sentence you mentioned, but nevermind.

"God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death"
- what do you think is unbiblical on this sentence? I think that all Christians hold the truth that some are adopted by God and will have the eternal life and some are not and will be judged to eternal death?

The difference is choice!!

Depleted · May 17, 2017

kaylagrl said:

More by Calvin,

“We call predestination God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)

“The very inequality of his grace proves that it is free.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 6)

“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

And this is what Barrack Obama believes.
[FONT=&quot]“...values are rooted in a basic optimism about life and a faith in free will.”[/FONT]

What do you think he means, Kayla?

Depleted · May 17, 2017

kaylagrl said:

Not true. The first one isn't even a complete sentence. The second one is.

Depleted · May 17, 2017

Meggido said:

And a Calvinist agrees with you 100%.

pottersclay · May 17, 2017

Boy depleted is all over this thread like white on rice. I had to pay 5.00 bucks to post this and still stand in line.

pottersclay · May 17, 2017

If all of us were created in the image of God wouldn't that make us all predestined?

And if all of us were led astray from our created purpose wouldn't the choice be to accept and fulfill our purpose rather than to believe or not.?

Adam walked with God in he cool of the day. Joshua and old Israel saw the hand of the Lord that was undeniably.

We are the ones who have not seen yet believe by the word that was spoken.

Just throwing things out there.

Angela53510 · May 17, 2017

Depleted said:

Interestingly enough, This is not quite true. In fact, Eph. 1:1-14 is ALL one sentence. And then Eph. 1:14-23 is another long sentence, in Greek. Now, we can't take clause after clause, after clause in English. So translators have had to break up the thought, and put in a bunch of periods at some places, following by a capital. Now, I know someone is going to say, "But the Greek manuscripts don't have punctuation, " and they would be right, they don't! But, what happens here is there is a principle clause in here, somewhere, and the rest of the passage is subordinate clauses. They simply cannot stand alone. So all those relative pronouns, subordinate conjunctions and other ways of making a sentence dependent on a principle clause is written right into the text. Hence, no need for punctuation for the Greeks. As for us - well, we certainly need those periods!

I have never heard anyone actually expound on this topic of why there are such LONG sentences in Ephesians 1. But, as Lynn says here, very important things come out of not isolating verses individually. I have a bunch of Ephesian commentaries. Later, I will take a look, and see what they say about this, if anything.

I do know one thing, we translated this chapter in Greek. Our prof, who seems to be moving towards being a Wesleyan, is firm that predestination is what this chapter is all about. How about this? In context:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." Eph. 1:3-14

So, I left off the salutation or greeting. But this part is pretty obvious that it is talking about God chose us before the foundation of the earth, having predestined us for adoption, also obtaining an inheritance, having been predestined to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

It doesn't get much clearer than this! I just see predestined, and all the blessings that entails. I do NOT see any options for some kind of random choice by someone who has not been called by God. Nor do I see anything about the possibilty of resisting God. Or for that matter, losing your salvation, including this myth that once chosen by God, you can just walk away from it. This passage makes it clear, that we were sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance.

And praise God for that!

Desertsrose · May 17, 2017

Hi Angela,

I love those verses!

I added some comments in blue to make it easier for me.

Angela53510 said:

Interestingly enough, This is not quite true. In fact, Eph. 1:1-14 is ALL one sentence. And then Eph. 1:14-23 is another long sentence, in Greek. Now, we can't take clause after clause, after clause in English. So translators have had to break up the thought, and put in a bunch of periods at some places, following by a capital. Now, I know someone is going to say, "But the Greek manuscripts don't have punctuation, " and they would be right, they don't! But, what happens here is there is a principle clause in here, somewhere, and the rest of the passage is subordinate clauses. They simply cannot stand alone. So all those relative pronouns, subordinate conjunctions and other ways of making a sentence dependent on a principle clause is written right into the text. Hence, no need for punctuation for the Greeks. As for us - well, we certainly need those periods!

I have never heard anyone actually expound on this topic of why there are such LONG sentences in Ephesians 1. But, as Lynn says here, very important things come out of not isolating verses individually. I have a bunch of Ephesian commentaries. Later, I will take a look, and see what they say about this, if anything.

I do know one thing, we translated this chapter in Greek. Our prof, who seems to be moving towards being a Wesleyan, is firm that predestination is what this chapter is all about. How about this? In context:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

So here we have Paul speaking to the Ephesian brothers and sisters in the Lord. He's letting them know that God worked outside of time and from the very beginning when He planned out the redemption for mankind, He chose us, those who are born again, (the whosoever wills) to be holy and blameless before Him before He even laid the foundation of the world. It's 'too wonderful' to even imagine that God had us in mind that far back before time began. \o/

In love5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Here Paul is saying that it was God's love and God's will that he predestined to adopt us as sons through Jesus Christ. The plan of salvation definitely wasn't a minor thought.

6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Continuing on, Paul lets the Ephesians know what a great inheritance they have again through God's preplanning.

12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." Eph. 1:3-14

So, I left off the salutation or greeting. But this part is pretty obvious that it is talking about God chose us before the foundation of the earth, having predestined us for adoption, also obtaining an inheritance, having been predestined to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

Amen, Angela. We take the full counsel of His will and that means all of scripture. In other scriptures, God talks about how we are saved, by grace through faith.

God says : As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

It doesn't get much clearer than this! I just see predestined, and all the blessings that entails. I do NOT see any options for some kind of random choice by someone who has not been called by God. Nor do I see anything about the possibilty of resisting God. Or for that matter, losing your salvation, including this myth that once chosen by God, you can just walk away from it. This passage makes it clear, that we were sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance.

Okay so what is predestined?
~ He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ.
~ He predestined our inheritance.

The us that's adopted and have an inheritance are those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and are saved by grace through faith. Again, the whosoever wills.

And we were chosen (those who respond to the gospel) to be holy and blameless before Him before the foundation of the world was laid. He's talking to those who have received the truth, those who have confessed that Jesus is Lord, those who through the hearing of Paul's gospel said yes.

And praise God for that!

Amen, praise God for that!!! What an awesome God we serve.... Who loved us even when we don't deserve His love!!!

Desertsrose · May 17, 2017

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “ But the righteous man shall live by faith.” Romans 1:16, 17

Adstar · May 18, 2017

pckts said:

Exactly

If the dogma of cavinisim was correct you would just look up at the board and instantly the choice would come into your mind.. No need to think no need at all.. lol

Adstar · May 18, 2017

trofimus said:

When it comes to the moral truths of the Message of God. The moral conviction of the truth and Love that is the Message of God.. Did the Holy Spirit work upon me? Yes i believe He certainly did. Could have i resisted the conviction? Sure if i loved evil more then i loved the truth..

How many people in this world have resisted their consciences and went out to do what they know is wrong? ... Yeah that's right Everyone at one time or another especially when they where kids.. So too can people resist and flee the conviction of the His Holy Spirit.. You see it every day..

Adstar · May 18, 2017

vic1980 said:

[video=youtube_share;-lEYdmJEAFM]http://youtu.be/-lEYdmJEAFM[/video]

Ravi Zacharias Is Roman Catholicism a cult?

Perhaps you many understand clearly now magenta

It is sufficiently clear to me that Ravi is an ecumenist, after the mold of Billy Graham, as he dare not speak the plain truth when it comes to the roman catholic church.Even when he says people stay in a group (for e.g. the roman catholics) to change it from within, which may be so, he is afraid to point out the fact that such an arrangement is unbiblical.

The bible clearly says that after the second admonition, the heretic is to be rejected. The bible further reveals in the Book of Revelation that God Himself personally wants all His people to come out of the spiritual harlot which is the roman catholic church. In addition the bible clearly teaches that the believer has no part with an infidel ( and as such also a heretic) and is to be separated from them.Please don't tell me that Ravi, being a well known international apologist for the gospel, may not know these verses.

If it is so, he has no business being a preacher and apologist for the gospel as he is misleading others to think they can do whatever they like (such as staying in the roman catholic church to change it from within) when the bible teaches otherwise.And if he knows these verses and this very specific teaching of the bible to the believer to have no part with the infidel and the heretic, and he doesn't want to share this teaching, then he has absolutely no business being a preacher of God's word

There is no political correctness in the word of God, only divine truth, and if Ravi thinks he has to be politically correct like Billy Graham, then he is in the wrong business. Jesus and His Apostles spoke God's truth as it is and so did the Old Testament prophets of God at risk of losing their own lives.

If a supposed preacher of God's word (such as Ravi Zacharias, Billy Graham, Franklin Graham and others) is afraid to tell the heretics (e.g. the roman catholics) that they are heretics traveling on the broad road to eternal damnation, how can they be saved? Their blood is surely on the hands of such false preachers.

Shalom

A few years ago i started to watch Ravi Zacharias video's on utube and he did make a lot of sound points. But then i watched a video hi did where he praised the roman catholic church and i emediatly stopped the video and have never watched a video from him again... So to be fair you are right on this point.. But this thread is not about Ravi Zacharias is it.. It is about Free will..

Adstar · May 18, 2017

Depleted said:

None of the scriptures above show that free will choice does not exist..

People still choose.. That choice is influenced by the information they receive, The conviction in their heart, and their desires.. Most people who come to believe Jesus go through a lot of struggles with the competing factors if free will did not exist then the decision to accept or reject the Word of God would take no real time and would be of no internal mental struggle at all.. I can tell you from personal experience coming to the point of accepting the Love of the truth took time. The belief that there is no free will is to me borders on the delusional insanity..

SovereignGrace · May 18, 2017

kaylagrl said:

Precisely. God's sovereign choice.

Lets Talk Free Choice

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