Lets Talk Free Choice

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,425
3,474
113


So this begs the question,did God determine Hitler would come to power? As in,was that Gods will?
God Allowed Hitler to come to power.. God allowed WW2 to happen.. Nothing happens under the sun without God allowing it to happen.. But that does not mean that it was Gods will...

God Allowing places the blame on Hitler and his followers for the things they did..

Making the things Hitler and his followers did Gods will makes God responsable for the evil that Hitler did..
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,425
3,474
113
This is kind of a weird discussion. Because we can't know for certain either way.

But, the underlying concept here that is not being discussed is the thought that mankind is basically good. Those that believe in free will believe that people can make good choices out of their own innate goodness.

The Lord Jesus says there is only One that is Good and that is God.

So your free will, without the influence of God, can only choose what is not good, or evil continually.

In order to have chosen that Good Thing you must have been influenced by the One that is Good, God.

Of course God influences us through His Holy Spirit ... But we still in the end make the choice..We still have the choice to resist the leading of the Holy Spirit..

Read it::

Acts 7: KJV
51"¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

If calvinist dogma is correct this verse in the Book of Acts is uninspired because it clearly shows that people resist the Holy Spirit...


In order to have chosen that Good


Who is Choosing Good now ????

The calvinist dogma states we have no free will.. So your statement makes no seance. If God is making the choice for us because He is the only one with free will then we are not the ones making any choice. No one can choose Good according to calvinism.


This is a sort of puzzle that some who have been Saved by the Power of God look into. I didn't start out thinking that I had no power to do good. Quite the opposite. Before I came to Christ I thought I was a pretty good person.

If you were saved by the Power of God and not your own power, then whose will has been done?
If you were given a gift that you could not perform yourself, whose will has been done?
It is Gods will that all come to repentance and none are lost.. Gods will is that no one is damned.. Here another verse that calvinism declares uninspired..

2 Peter 3: KJV
9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."


Ohhh Noooo Peter!!!!! :mad: according to the gospel according to calvin you are a blasphemer... get ye behind me Peter you are an offense to calvinism.. :D


If God is producing good fruit in your life that you can't do yourself, whose will is being done?
Good fruit is not really about free will.. If i cannot afford to give a big donation to a charity and God causes me to get an unexpected bonus or inheritance windfall so that i can now give a big donation.. yeah it is primarily Gods will that i was able to do that good work.. Also Gods teachings and the moving of His Holy Spirit in my conscience has me desiring to give charity to help others.. But i was not forced against my free will.. I still had to desire or agree to doing the good deed..


Are you choosing to do good or are you choosing to stop choosing, to ask for Gods Will to be done and not your own?
Again according to calvinism we have no free will ability to choose anything .. So why ask us if we are choosing to do one thing to do one thing or another??? Of calvinism is correct we don't have the free will to choose...
 
Last edited:

vic1980

Senior Member
Apr 25, 2013
1,653
199
63
44
"we cannot paint everyone with the same brush" is one of his statements in the video.

The Bible is the one brush that paints everyone & designates whether we be christian or sinner, & how to become & remain a christian.

If we can't paint everyone with this same brush, then what do we use?

"They" have but one answer.....ecumenicism/universal salvation.

You're on the right track there, vic.
:)
Very sadden , that others will still follow this guy teachings , as if they were Holy Spirit filled :(
 

vic1980

Senior Member
Apr 25, 2013
1,653
199
63
44
True. Time to wake up. That's the Nicene Creed, not the RCC creed. Wake up! That's what the whole church believes. And then take the time to learn what catholic means when he says that.

.
The church Jesus Christ our Lord built , was not founded in 325 by the First Council of Nicaea.

Shalom
 

vic1980

Senior Member
Apr 25, 2013
1,653
199
63
44
Wrong thread.So far all his posts are about Catholics that I have seen. And this is not that thread.
Oh my how far from the truth this post is indeed , out of all thee post i've done in the past five years on this site, perhaps 6 or 7 of them are of the Roman Catholic Church.

continue on now back to topic : Lets Talk Free Choice
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
Exactly :D If the dogma of cavinisim was correct you would just look up at the board and instantly the choice would come into your mind.. No need to think no need at all.. lol
Nonsense. You do not understand at all.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
​The difference is choice!!
There is nothing unbiblical on this sentence... so I do not know what to say next... We have a choice,but we need the special mercy of God to be born again. Without this mercy our choices will lead us to hell.

So when we are left to our "free" choices, we will be adjudged to the eternal death for them. And it will be our guilt.
 
Last edited:

vic1980

Senior Member
Apr 25, 2013
1,653
199
63
44
Did thee twelve disciples of Jesus have a choice , or was it God will , that they would carry out His plan ?

:rolleyes:

Shalom
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
Did thee twelve disciples of Jesus have a choice , or was it God will , that they would carry out His plan ?

:rolleyes:

Shalom

Both. By the grace of God they made the right choice :)
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
God Allowed Hitler to come to power.. God allowed WW2 to happen.. Nothing happens under the sun without God allowing it to happen.. But that does not mean that it was Gods will...

God Allowing places the blame on Hitler and his followers for the things they did..

Making the things Hitler and his followers did Gods will makes God responsable for the evil that Hitler did..


But there is a big difference between God allowing something and causing it. Does He cause evil? There is Gods perfect will and His permissive will.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
Oh my how far from the truth this post is indeed , out of all thee post i've done in the past five years on this site, perhaps 6 or 7 of them are of the Roman Catholic Church.

continue on now back to topic : Lets Talk Free Choice

I dont care how often,please stay on topic.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
But there is a big difference between God allowing something and causing it. Does He cause evil? There is Gods perfect will and His permissive will.
I agree.

For what it is worth - here is an interesting comment about biblical interpretation from Young's Analytical Concordance about Hebrew verbs written in the 1800's.

Young's Analytical Concordance : under "Hints and helps for Bible Interpretations" - section 70 (b)

- Active verbs frequently express a permission - not in a causative sense.
 
D

Depleted

Guest



Interestingly enough, This is not quite true. In fact, Eph. 1:1-14 is ALL one sentence. And then Eph. 1:14-23 is another long sentence, in Greek. Now, we can't take clause after clause, after clause in English. So translators have had to break up the thought, and put in a bunch of periods at some places, following by a capital. Now, I know someone is going to say, "But the Greek manuscripts don't have punctuation, " and they would be right, they don't! But, what happens here is there is a principle clause in here, somewhere, and the rest of the passage is subordinate clauses. They simply cannot stand alone. So all those relative pronouns, subordinate conjunctions and other ways of making a sentence dependent on a principle clause is written right into the text. Hence, no need for punctuation for the Greeks. As for us - well, we certainly need those periods!

I have never heard anyone actually expound on this topic of why there are such LONG sentences in Ephesians 1. But, as Lynn says here, very important things come out of not isolating verses individually. I have a bunch of Ephesian commentaries. Later, I will take a look, and see what they say about this, if anything.

I do know one thing, we translated this chapter in Greek. Our prof, who seems to be moving towards being a Wesleyan, is firm that predestination is what this chapter is all about. How about this? In context:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." Eph. 1:3-14

So, I left off the salutation or greeting. But this part is pretty obvious that it is talking about God chose us before the foundation of the earth, having predestined us for adoption, also obtaining an inheritance, having been predestined to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

It doesn't get much clearer than this! I just see predestined, and all the blessings that entails. I do NOT see any options for some kind of random choice by someone who has not been called by God. Nor do I see anything about the possibilty of resisting God. Or for that matter, losing your salvation, including this myth that once chosen by God, you can just walk away from it. This passage makes it clear, that we were sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance.


And praise God for that!
But? But, but, but, don't we choose who will adopt us? And don't we get to be unadopted whenever we choose? AND, if we aren't adopted is that because someone stepped on our leash?
 
D

Depleted

Guest
Exactly :D If the dogma of cavinisim was correct you would just look up at the board and instantly the choice would come into your mind.. No need to think no need at all.. lol
Cool! Then please tell, what did you think out before you chose salvation? What were the pros and cons?

(As many times as I've asked this, the question has been completely ignored. Will my streak continue?)
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
But there is a big difference between God allowing something and causing it. Does He cause evil? There is Gods perfect will and His permissive will.

There is that verse in Isaiah 45:7 that can make it appear that God does cause evil. But how does this occur?

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

This short 6 minute video gives a great view of this passage and just how does God create evil.

This view does not violate the nature and character of God as revealed in the Lord Jesus Christ when He said that no one knows the Father but He has come to reveal Him and His true nature. Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of the Father. Heb. 1:2

We do have choices in the things we believe.



[video=youtube;oHt-0CUbb7c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHt-0CUbb7c[/video]
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
We have Institutes somewhere upstairs in our study. We also have 7 bookcases of books, and not all of our books are actually in the bookcases. So, sorry. I really am not going to look up Calvin's Institutes to tell you what Calvin meant by that even if I could figure out what Calvin meant by that in context.

Why? Should I be posting a snippet of Wesley to ask you what he meant by that?

Personally, I don't even get C.S. Lewis, and he was neither Calvinist nor Arminian. lol




Quote "I really am not going to look up Calvin's Institutes to tell you what Calvin meant by that even if I could figure out what Calvin meant by that in context."


5. The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny; but it is greatly caviled at, especially by those who make prescience its cause. We, indeed, ascribe both prescience and predestination to God; but we say, that it is absurd to make the latter subordinate to the former (see chap. 22 sec. 1). When we attribute prescience to God, we mean that all things always were, and ever continue, under his eye; that to his knowledge there is no past or future, but all things are present, and indeed so present, that it is not merely the idea of them that is before him (as those objects are which we retain in our memory), but that he truly sees and contemplates them as actually under his immediate inspection. This prescience extends to the whole circuit of the world, and to all creatures. By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. This God has testified, not only in the case of single individuals; he has also given a specimen of it in the whole posterity of Abraham, to make it plain that the future condition of each nation lives entirely at his disposal: "When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. For the Lord's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance," (Deut. 32:8, 9). The separation is before the eyes of all; in the person of Abraham, as in a withered stock, one people is specially chosen, while the others are rejected; but the cause does not appear, except that Moses, to deprive posterity of any handle for glorying, tells them that their superiority was owing entirely to the free love of God. The cause which he assigns for their deliverance is, "Because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them," (Deut. 4:37); or more explicitly in another chapter, "The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because you were more in number than any people: for ye were the fewest of all people: but because the Lord loved you," (Deut. 7:7, 8). He repeatedly makes the same intimations, "Behold, the heaven, and the heaven of heavens is the Lord's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. Only the Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them," (Deut. 10:14, 15). Again, in another passage, holiness is enjoined upon them, because they have been chosen to be a peculiar people; while in another, love is declared to be the cause of their protection (Deut. 23:5). This, too, believers with one voice proclaim, "He shall choose our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob, whom he loved," (Ps. 47:4). The endowments with which God had adorned them, they all ascribe to gratuitous love, not only because they knew that they had not obtained them by any merit, but that not even was the holy patriarch endued with a virtue that could procure such distinguished honor for himself and his posterity. And the more completely to crush all pride, he upbraids them with having merited nothing of the kind, seeing they were a rebellious and stiff-necked people (Deut. 9:6). Often, also, do the prophets remind the Jews of this election by way of disparagement and opprobrium, because they had shamefully revolted from it. Be this as it may, let those who would ascribe the election of God to human worth or merit come forward. When they see that one nation is preferred to all others, when they hear that it was no feeling of respect that induced God to show more favor to a small and ignoble body, nay, even to the wicked and rebellious, will they plead against him for having chosen to give such a manifestation of mercy? But neither will their obstreperous words hinder his work, nor will their invectives, like stones thrown against heaven, strike or hurt his righteousness; nay, rather they will fall back on their own heads. To this principle of a free covenant, moreover, the Israelites are recalled whenever thanks are to be returned to God, or their hopes of the future to be animated. "The Lord he is God," says the Psalmist; "it is he that has made us, and not we ourselves: we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture," (Ps. 100:3; 95:7). The negation which is added, "not we ourselves," is not superfluous, to teach us that God is not only the author of all the good qualities in which men excel, but that they originate in himself, there being nothing in them worthy of so much honor. In the following words also they are enjoined to rest satisfied with the mere good pleasure of God: "O ye seed of Abraham, his servant; ye children of Jacob, his chosen," (Ps. 105:6). And after an enumeration of the continual mercies of God as fruits of election, the conclusion is, that he acted thus kindly because he remembered his covenant. With this doctrine accords the song of the whole Church, "They got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them; but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favor unto them," (Ps. 44:3). It is to be observed, that when the land is mentioned, it is a visible symbol of the secret election in which adoption is comprehended. To like gratitude David elsewhere exhorts the people, "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, and the people whom he has chosen for his own inheritance," (Ps. 33:12). Samuel thus animates their hopes, "The Lord will not forsake his people for his great name's sake: because it has pleased the Lord to make you his people," (1 Sam. 12:22). And when David's faith is assailed, how does he arm himself for the battle? "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causes to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts," (Ps. 65:4). But as the hidden election of God was confirmed both by a first and second election, and by other intermediate mercies, Isaiah thus applies the terms "The Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel," (Isa. 14:1). Referring to a future period, the gathering together of the dispersion, who seemed to have been abandoned, he says, that it will be a sign of a firm and stable election, notwithstanding of the apparent abandonment. When it is elsewhere said, "I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away," (Isa. 41:9), the continual course of his great liberality is ascribed to paternal kindness. This is stated more explicitly in Zechariah by the angel, the Lord "shall choose Jerusalem again," as if the severity of his chastisements had amounted to reprobation, or the captivity had been an interruption of election, which, however, remains inviolable, though the signs of it do not always appear.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
None of the scriptures above show that free will choice does not exist..

People still choose.. That choice is influenced by the information they receive, The conviction in their heart, and their desires.. Most people who come to believe Jesus go through a lot of struggles with the competing factors if free will did not exist then the decision to accept or reject the Word of God would take no real time and would be of no internal mental struggle at all.. I can tell you from personal experience coming to the point of accepting the Love of the truth took time. The belief that there is no free will is to me borders on the delusional insanity..
And if you weren't so busy proving your point, you would have noticed I disagree with you on if there was will or choice. And if you had bothered reading anything I've written, (including what I wrote that the above is your response), you would at least know what I believe about free will and choice. And if you can tell me your pro and con list on how you, personally, made the most important decision in your life at the time of that decision, I might actually believe anything else you say. I personally don't think I'll have to revisit anything you say, because you're busy proving you saved yourself. You're also busy proving that yours is the only voice of reason, when clearly you haven't bothered listening to any voice but your own.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
The church Jesus Christ our Lord built , was not founded in 325 by the First Council of Nicaea.

Shalom
Well, from what I've seen of you on this site lately, clearly it was founded on February 14, 2005. The day YouTube came online. lol