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Thread: Lets Talk Free Choice

  1. #441
    Senior Member kaylagrl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by BeyondET View Post
    This is the dogma with the resurrection that's been around for centuries, many of scholars and priest etc. been teaching that there was only one ascend, this is not how scripture is written. the complete account is divided up into four gospels.

    Jesus appeared right outside the tomb to Mary the morning of the resurrection and said don't touch me (Jn 20:17) for He had not ascended to the father but go and till the disciples He is ascending to the Father and He did and returned many times.

    John 20:11-17
    11But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre, 12And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 13And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. 14And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 15Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Jesus is not going to say such a statement then change His mind and stay on earth and don't ascend to the father before he appears to His brethren.

    later on He descends from the Father to appear to the women again but this time He allows the women to touch His feet to hold Him.
    Matthew 28:8
    8 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
    9Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.

    there in Galilee He allows His deciples to touch him as well for they thought He was in spirit form.
    Luke 24:39
    39behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

    Jesus would not say what He said in (Jh 10:9) if He could not go in and out as well
    John 10:9
    I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture


    It's going to hard for people to see the correct account when it's spread out over four gospels but with logic and of choice it is there within the four gospels.


    ​Jesus ascended once and only once. smh I worry for the church when I see some of the things in this forum.Its not God barring the way,it is people. So discouraging.
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  2. #442
    Senior Member kaylagrl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    [QUOTE=notuptome;3100821]John 16:7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
    8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
    10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
    11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

    The jailer was confronted with his sin by the Holy Spirit of God. Isn't this what happened to you? How did you come to trust in the Lord for your salvation?

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger


    I know you disagree with me on certain things and I you,but you nailed this one brother.Thank you for sharing.This is what I have been trying to say and you brought the point out.
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  3. #443
    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    Quote "But ppl do make a choice to not serve God every day. They are in open rebellion to Him every day they live in their unregenerate state. In this state, they are God-haters. In this state, they are His enemies. In this state, they run from Him. In this state, they don't go looking for a door to gain entrance into so they can worship Him as He so richly deserves.


    Yes,before we are born again we are in rebellion,we are against God,we love darkness.Dont disagree at all. What we did agree on is who can respond to the message.



    John 3

    Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
    3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”
    4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
    5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]
    9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
    10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]
    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.


    Jesus says "you must be born again" Who can be born again? He says "whoever believes". Those who do not believe stay in darkness.The Holy Spirit draws,a person becomes born again when they heed the Holy Spirits call,the Holy Spirits job is to testify of Jesus to draw people to Him.You cant take a handful of verses and make a doctrine out of them,which is what Calvin did.
    Those who receive Him have ALREADY believed.

    He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

    Now, those who received Him, how did they receive Him? Not those who were born of natural descent[Jews], nor of human decision[shoots decisional regeneration outta the water], nor of a husband's will[we can't will ourselves saved], but those who were born of God. Those are the ones who receive Him. That's the context of John 1:12,13]
    Last edited by SovereignGrace; 1 Week Ago at 08:40 AM.
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  4. #444
    Senior Member notuptome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    Sissy, you are putting the effect before the cause. One is not born again after they do something, but before.
    Spiritual death is positional and not literal. Dead in that condemnation has been pronounced but by mercy there is hope because the sentence has not been carried to its fulfillment.

    Christ taught that evil men could do good deeds even though they did not count toward eternal righteousness.

    Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    Christ did something in that He died for us before we knew Him.

    Just how was it when you came to know Christ as your Savior?

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
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  5. #445
    Senior Member peacefulbeliever's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    Sissy, the natural birth is an example of the Spiritual birth. None exercised a will in their physical. None exercised their will in their Spiritual birth.
    But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood (flesh and blood), nor of the will (desire) of the flesh, nor of the will (desire) of man, . . . . that which is born of the flesh is flesh.

    but of God. . . . that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. That new birth, being born of the Spirit is created (born) within those that receive Christ and believe on his name.

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    Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin. Psalm 51:2
    Heaviness in the heart of man maketh it stoop: but a good word maketh it glad. Pro. 12:25
    Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. Ps. 19:14
    The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations. Ps. 33:11
    We learn to walk spiritually the same way we learn to walk physically-by walking.

  6. #446
    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    Spiritual death is positional and not literal. Dead in that condemnation has been pronounced but by mercy there is hope because the sentence has not been carried to its fulfillment.

    Christ taught that evil men could do good deeds even though they did not count toward eternal righteousness.

    Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    Christ did something in that He died for us before we knew Him.

    Just how was it when you came to know Christ as your Savior?

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    Nekros. Ephesians 2:1.
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  7. #447
    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by peacefulbeliever View Post
    But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood (flesh and blood), nor of the will (desire) of the flesh, nor of the will (desire) of man, . . . . that which is born of the flesh is flesh.

    but of God. . . . that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. That new birth, being born of the Spirit is created (born) within those that receive Christ and believe on his name.

    And NONE exerted their wills to be saved PRIOR to this birth by God's Spirit. That's what I am saying.
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  8. #448
    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    Spiritual death is positional and not literal. Dead in that condemnation has been pronounced but by mercy there is hope because the sentence has not been carried to its fulfillment.

    Christ taught that evil men could do good deeds even though they did not count toward eternal righteousness.

    Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    Christ did something in that He died for us before we knew Him.

    Just how was it when you came to know Christ as your Savior?

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    By His sovereign mercy.
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  9. #449
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Adstar View Post
    Lets look and review one of the 5 pillars of calvinism called TULIP shall we:


    "I" in "TULIP" stands for "Irresistible Grace."



    "In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is he dependant upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended."


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So here we have the doctrine of Irresistible grace which proclaims that if the Holy Spirit acts upon us then we have no ability to resist His leading..

    So if this doctrine is correct then the verse i quoted in Acts 7 must be uninspired and calvinists must seek to remove this verse from the Bible..

    Acts 7: KJV
    51"¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."



    Remember The Holy Spirit is irresistible in calvanisim.. If people only hear the """outward general call to salvation""" then the Holy Spirit is not involved in that call.. So when a person who God has created to burn in hell ( according to calvinism ) hears the call he is only hearing the """outward general call to salvation""" only and the Holy Spirit is taking no part in that event.. According to calvinism when the Holy Spirit becomes involved then His leading is irresistible..

    Therefore either Acts 7 verse 51 is correct or calvinism is correct... You can be assured i will place my Faith in the Bible not in the thoughts of a man john calvin..
    You are totally wrong about the teaching of Calvinism.

    It is true that it teaches irresistible grace but it also teaches that those affected will gladly respond to that grace, for God will work it in them..

    Furthermore it teaches that others are resisting the Holy Spirit because He works on them but His word to their hearts is not heeded.

    YOU say, 'If people only hear the """outward general call to salvation""" then the Holy Spirit is not involved in that call'. The Calvinist does not necessarily say that (I say necessarily because some might). He says that the Holy Spirit is resisted, rejected and grieved.

    I cannot answer for John Calvin himself, but this is the teaching of the majority of 'Calvinists' and is in accordance with Scripture.

  10. #450
    Senior Member Issachar92's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Its the gospel in reverse, you are born again, then you believe.

    You get the Holy Spirit before you believe? Then after you got the Spirit (born again) then you believe?

    Wew.
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  11. #451
    Senior Member preacher4truth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post

    He believed!! They said "believe"!! They didn't say "oh wait,this may not work,you may or may not be elected.So you can believe but you may be one of those poor fools that was made for destruction and may go to hell anyway" They said "believe" he did and was saved. So simple a child can understand.
    Lot's of disdain being displayed above toward God's electing grace...really, really sad. It is also a straw man argument intended to be inflammatory toward those of us who believe what Scripture teaches concerning election.

    Now, as for children, don't be so certain and presumptuous, use wise caution. I say this from experience of seeing children doing this without even understanding anything about the Gospel. Over-zealous parents are the primary cause, or VBS, where they have gotten the child to raise their hand "if they want to go to heaven" then they get dunked. Maybe that's your gospel method, but it isn't the Bible's Gospel nor method of salvation.

    What must the child understand? That they want to go to heaven? That they want to do it because their friend got baptized, so they too want to get dunked? That if they give all the right answers to a check list, they're declared saved? (That's making mental assent to facts).

    If you ask a child why he or she wants to be saved, ask them if they know what Jesus is saving them from, without putting words in their mouth like "Do you realize you're a sinner?" and/or "Do you want to go to heaven when you die? Let me show you from the Bible that you can go to heaven when you die?" That is all manipulation. If God is working in them to be saved they'll know this, because they have been convicted, and they don't need to answer a check list of statements and make mental assent to it.

    Many are using the false invention of Finney in dealing with people and are clueless to it; (his anxious seat invention, where deciding for heaven is the same thing as making a career choice, and many false converts were added to local congregations). People use "the chair illustration" "Being saved is just like sitting in this chair, you sit in it because you know by faith it will support you. It's the same with Jesus." This is conflating common trust with the supernatural gift of faith. It is spiritual chicanery, manipulation, craftiness in the negative sense, and what Scripture calls underhanded ways of presenting the Gospel; 2 Corinthians 4:2.

    This is why there are so many false conversions. Obviously God did a work in the heart of the jailer which is why he believed. We believe only by the power of God that raised Christ from the dead; Ephesians 1:19.

    Acts 16:31

    And they said, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ,.... Not with a bare historical faith, as only to believe that he was the Son of God, and the Messiah, and that he was come in the flesh, and had suffered, and died, and rose again, and was now in heaven at the right hand of God, and would come again to judge both quick and dead, for there may be such a faith and no salvation; but so as to look unto him alone for life and salvation, to rely upon him, and trust in him; to commit himself, and the care of his immortal soul unto him, and to expect peace, pardon, righteousness, and eternal life from him; the answer is much the same our Lord returned to the Jews, when they asked, though not with the same affection and sincerity as this man, what they must do to work the works of God, Joh_6:28.

    And thou shalt be saved; from sin, and all its miserable effects and consequences; from the curses of the law, from the power of Satan, from the evil of the world, from the wrath of God, hell and damnation: this is to be understood of a spiritual and eternal salvation; for it is said, after that the jailer was inquiring about it, being terrified in his conscience with a sense of sin and wrath; and between believing in Christ, and being saved with an everlasting salvation, there is a strict and inseparable connection, Mar_16:16 though not faith, but Christ is the cause and author of salvation; faith spies salvation in Christ, goes to him for it, receives it from him, and believes unto it:

    and thy house; or family, provided they believe in Christ also, as they did, Act_16:34 or otherwise there can be no salvation, for he that believeth not shall be damned.
    -- John Gill
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  12. #452
    Senior Member BeyondET's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    ​Jesus ascended once and only once. smh I worry for the church when I see some of the things in this forum.Its not God barring the way,it is people. So discouraging.
    I'm worry because things just what you said, you kick out John 20:17 like it doesn't exists, in your mind you think this happen at the end of the bible. Can you explain why Jesus said this in the morning of the resurrection. He said go and tell His deciples He is ascending, the blind have been leading the blind to many times in this world.

    John 20:17
    Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    did He change His mind and ascend after the forty days. Really open your eyes

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    ​Jesus ascended once and only once. smh I worry for the church when I see some of the things in this forum.Its not God barring the way,it is people. So discouraging.
    Ppl are the only ones barring themselves. Look at it through the lens of Ezekiel 37. He comes upon a valley full of very dry bones. Left to themselves, they had no hope of ever living again. God tells Ezekiel to prophesy and the earth quakes and bone comes to its bone and then sinew and then flesh. Yet, they lack one thing, breath, which is symbolic of the Spirit. He then prophesies again and the wind blows upon them and they stand on their feet, a great army.

    Now, what will did they exercise for all this to take place to them? None. That's how God works. If Ezekiel had taken this upon himself without God's intervening, nothing would have happened to them.

    When we preach, the lost we preach to, spiritual wise, they are in the same boat as those dry bones. However, when God moves through our gospel preaching, these dead sinners come to life and believe.
    Last edited by SovereignGrace; 1 Week Ago at 08:56 AM.
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    Senior Member notuptome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    Nekros. Ephesians 2:1.
    Spiritually dead but not physically dead. It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment. Until you die physically you have hope in hearing the gospel.

    Tell me did you have a John 16 experience?

    John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
    10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
    11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
    12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
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    Senior Member peacefulbeliever's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by peacefulbeliever View Post
    But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood (flesh and blood), nor of the will (desire) of the flesh, nor of the will (desire) of man, . . . . that which is born of the flesh is flesh.

    but of God. . . . that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. That new birth, being born of the Spirit is created (born) within those that receive Christ and believe on his name.
    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    And NONE exerted their wills to be saved PRIOR to this birth by God's Spirit. That's what I am saying.
    No one exerted their wills prior to this birth by God's Spirit??? People are only given the power to become sons of God by receiving Christ and believing in him.

    will: 1) the mental power to decide and control what you do (by your decision) 2) a desire; a chosen decision; 3) determination to do something . . . . so when I heard the gospel the word of truth and it was mixed with belief - faith came. I had to hear, i.e. receive what I was hearing; I had to decide if I believed what I heard was true; i.e. Jesus Christ was the Son of God, he died for the remission of my sins and was raised to give eternal life to those that believe in him . . . faith came and I was born again of God. Just what that verse says "to those who received him and believed in his name".
    Last edited by peacefulbeliever; 1 Week Ago at 08:59 AM.
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    Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin. Psalm 51:2
    Heaviness in the heart of man maketh it stoop: but a good word maketh it glad. Pro. 12:25
    Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. Ps. 19:14
    The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations. Ps. 33:11
    We learn to walk spiritually the same way we learn to walk physically-by walking.

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    Senior Member notuptome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    By His sovereign mercy.
    Non-answer.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    Spiritually dead but not physically dead. It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment. Until you die physically you have hope in hearing the gospel.

    Tell me did you have a John 16 experience?

    John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
    10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
    11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
    12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    Spiritual death is nekros.

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    Non-answer.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    Yeah? Its by His sovereign mercy He saved me. I was not seeking Him, but He sought me and brought me to Himself.

    And that's a non-answer?

    Brother preacher4truth(on the left and apparently my hero, too!!!) and me, his trusty sidekick.

  19. #459
    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by peacefulbeliever View Post
    No one exerted their wills prior to this birth by God's Spirit??? People are only given the power to become sons of God by receiving Christ and believing in him.

    will: 1) the mental power to decide and control what you do (by your decision) 2) a desire; a chosen decision; 3) determination to do something . . . . so when I heard the gospel the word of truth and it was mixed with belief - faith came. I had to hear, i.e. receive what I was hearing; I had to decide if I believed what I heard was true; i.e. Jesus Christ was the Son of God, he died for the remission of my sins and was raised to give eternal life to those that believe in him . . . faith came and I was born again of God. Just what that verse says "to those who received him and believed in his name".
    Those who receive Him have been born of God.[John 1:13] Those who love Him have been born of Him.[1 John 4:] I'm seeing a pattern here.
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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    Spiritually dead but not physically dead. It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment. Until you die physically you have hope in hearing the gospel.

    Tell me did you have a John 16 experience?

    John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
    10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
    11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
    12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    Greek word for 'dead' in Ephesians 2:1 is 'Nekros'...


    1. properly
    2. one that has breathed his last, lifeless
    3. deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
    4. destitute of life, without life, inanimate
    5. metaph.

      1. spiritually dead
      2. destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
      3. inactive as respects doing right

    6. destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative
    BeyondET likes this.

    Brother preacher4truth(on the left and apparently my hero, too!!!) and me, his trusty sidekick.

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