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Thread: Lets Talk Free Choice

  1. #461
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel82 View Post
    Was researching another topic and ran across this and thought I would share.

    From the council of Trent of 1547

    ~The Council of Trent - Session 6~
    His quickening! THAT is the difference between what would be called Reformed Theology later on and non-reformed later on. Reformed says "God quickened." Non-reformed says "we chose."

    Bingo! Thank you!
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    Lynn

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    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Look at these...# 6 from my previous post...

    destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

    This was our souls in an unregenerate state. That's why the birth by the Spirit happens first. We were destitute of force or power[will], inactive, inoperative.
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by preacher4truth View Post
    "Do you want to go to heaven when you die? Let me show you from the Bible that you can go to heaven when you die?" That is all manipulation. If God is working in them to be saved they'll know this, because they have been convicted, and they don't need to answer a check list of statements and make mental assent to it.
    And this is why calvinist churches are dead. And this is why its so dangerous to teach this to somebody, it discourages people from sharing the gospel, how could it not? You dont even see the fruit of your labor, those people were elected to be saved anyway, your input was not needed.

    And now I read this, the worst of all, "showing from the bible how to get to heaven = manipulation?" Jesus said let the _who_ come to me? hmm.

    God working in them to be saved, so you mean to tell me that the Holy Spirit of God is working in unclean unsaved vessels BEFORE they repent and believe the gospel? So it is again, the GOSPEL IN REVERSE. Its all in reverse guys WAKE UP.
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  4. #464
    BeyondET
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    Greek word for 'dead' in Ephesians 2:1 is 'Nekros'...


    1. properly
    2. one that has breathed his last, lifeless
    3. deceased, departed, one whose soul is in heaven or hell
    4. destitute of life, without life, inanimate
    5. metaph.

      1. spiritually dead
      2. destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
      3. inactive as respects doing right

    6. destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative
    I agree Jesus isn't dead He goes where He pleases

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    When Lazarus was in the tomb, anybody could have rolled the stone away and yell "Lazrus, come out!", and nothing would have happened. But when Jesus spoke those words, he came out.

    When we preach, we tell ppl to repent and believe the gospel.[Mark 1:15] But if God's not drawing, those words are hollow. Now, if we say that and He's at work, watch out.
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    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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    Senior Member notuptome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    Look at these...# 6 from my previous post...

    destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

    This was our souls in an unregenerate state. That's why the birth by the Spirit happens first. We were destitute of force or power[will], inactive, inoperative.
    Doesn't change the fact that it's positional as in future not present. Same with our salvation in that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. We are not yet glorified with Christ we do not have our glorified bodies.

    The soul/spirit of man cannot die in the same sense as the flesh of man.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Issachar92 View Post
    And this is why calvinist churches are dead. And this is why its so dangerous to teach this to somebody, it discourages people from sharing the gospel, how could it not? You dont even see the fruit of your labor, those people were elected to be saved anyway, your input was not needed.

    And now I read this, the worst of all, "showing from the bible how to get to heaven = manipulation?" Jesus said let the _who_ come to me? hmm.

    God working in them to be saved, so you mean to tell me that the Holy Spirit of God is working in unclean unsaved vessels BEFORE they repent and believe the gospel? So it is again, the GOSPEL IN REVERSE. Its all in reverse guys WAKE UP.
    Sir, a lot of churches are about dead. I have a monthly meeting at a Separate Baptist church that is free will and the most there when I'm there is about 15. My F-I-L's church has less than 10 every sunday, and they hold to free will. My Missionary Baptist church runs in the 20's and 30's every sunday. and they hold to free will. There's a FWB church in the town I work at that is getting ready to have their 3rd pastor in ~ 2 years. Another FW church split a year or so ago. I know of another 4-5 free will believing churches who closed their doors in the last couple years.

    Don't throw all the blame our way.
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    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    ​Jesus ascended once and only once. smh I worry for the church when I see some of the things in this forum.Its not God barring the way,it is people. So discouraging.
    Quote Originally Posted by BeyondET View Post
    I'm worry because things just what you said, you kick out John 20:17 like it doesn't exists, in your mind you think this happen at the end of the bible. Can you explain why Jesus said this in the morning of the resurrection. He said go and tell His deciples He is ascending, the blind have been leading the blind to many times in this world.

    John 20:17
    Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    did He change His mind and ascend after the forty days. Really open your eyes
    This is a dilemma. I have never really considered it before.

    If Jesus ascended, then descended to walk around for 40 days, that would mean He has already returned a second time.

    But does the Bible actually use the term: "SECOND coming?" I have always 'assumed' it did, but it is worth looking up. I know it says He will return, but does it specifically say that will be the SECOND coming?
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    Doesn't change the fact that it's positional as in future not present. Same with our salvation in that we are sealed unto the day of redemption. We are not yet glorified with Christ we do not have our glorified bodies.

    The soul/spirit of man cannot die in the same sense as the flesh of man.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    And nekros means dead. We are unable to hear, see and love in that state.
    I have given God countless reasons not to love me. None of them has been strong enough to change Him.
    Paul Washer

    Instead of telling them God has a wonderful plan for their life - tell them who God is.
    Paul Washer

    God saved you for Himself; God saved you by Himself; God saved you from Himself
    .
    Paul Washer

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    Quote "But ppl do make a choice to not serve God every day. They are in open rebellion to Him every day they live in their unregenerate state. In this state, they are God-haters. In this state, they are His enemies. In this state, they run from Him. In this state, they don't go looking for a door to gain entrance into so they can worship Him as He so richly deserves.


    Yes,before we are born again we are in rebellion,we are against God,we love darkness.Dont disagree at all. What we did agree on is who can respond to the message.



    John 3

    Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
    3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”
    4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
    5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]
    9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
    10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]
    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.


    Jesus says "you must be born again" Who can be born again? He says "whoever believes". Those who do not believe stay in darkness.The Holy Spirit draws,a person becomes born again when they heed the Holy Spirits call,the Holy Spirits job is to testify of Jesus to draw people to Him.You cant take a handful of verses and make a doctrine out of them,which is what Calvin did.
    Speaking of taking out verses, for you to say that is what Calvin did is for you to deny verse 21 -- a verse you underlined! (And, btw, what a mediocre translation you picked. lol)

    Here's a link to all the translations of verse 21. Tell me that is just God watching to see what "whoever" will do after reading them.

    Because it's not just God watching, it's "wroughting" in God, it's "carrying out" in God, it's "having done" in God, It's "accomplishing" in God, it comes from God, it is always, always, always "in God!"

    (And warning: The next time you blame Calvin for our beliefs I am going to scare you.)

    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Senior Member notuptome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    Yeah? Its by His sovereign mercy He saved me. I was not seeking Him, but He sought me and brought me to Himself.

    And that's a non-answer?
    Now that's a start.

    What changed? Why did you go from not seeking to believing? Why did you respond to the Spirit's call?

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    Spiritual death is positional and not literal. Dead in that condemnation has been pronounced but by mercy there is hope because the sentence has not been carried to its fulfillment.
    You were deal in trespasses and sins. It sounds literal to me. It declares the state and condition in which I was, not just a potential condition which might not happen. It is already fulfilled,

    Christ taught that evil men could do good deeds even though they did not count toward eternal righteousness.
    So?

    Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    Christ did something in that He died for us before we knew Him.
    Because we were both dead to God and dead in trespasses and sins.

    We have to be reborn, regenerated, made alive in Christ,.

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    And nekros means dead. We are unable to hear, see and love in that state.
    And yet Christ is the Light that has come into the world and lighteth every man.

    Your understanding of nekros does not seem to work with the gospel.

    I agree that we are dead and deserving of eternal condemnation. We cannot save ourselves as we have nothing to offer. The sentence is not yet executed. Gods mercy has provided for us unworthy sinners a space to repent.

    John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
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    Senior Member kaylagrl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    And the bible avers that NONE seek Him.


    Yet many died never knowing Jesus existed. How can they call upon Him in whom they have not heard? Answer is they can't.



    This is hyper-Calvinist theology.



    This is mysticism and anti-Sola Scriptura. The word of God is the only thing to make one wise concerning salvation.



    This is mysticism, anti-Sola Scriptura and anti-missionial. If all they need is this, there's no need to send missionaries.



    Did the Spirit knock you off your ride? Did Jesus speak verbally to you? Of course not. You are using Paul's experience and conflating it with others. His was a rare occurrence and not to be as a way others have been saved.


    Exactly.


    Apparently not.




    Hebrews 1:1.


    Ppl go to hell because they're sinners.


    I am not saying it, Paul did. Romans 10:14-17.


    [/SIZE][SIZE=3]
    Hyper-dispensationial error. The true Jews have been circumcised in their hearts by the Spirit.[Romans 2:28,29] Both naturally born Jews and Gentiles have to have this circumcision.





    Yet NONE seek Him, NONE understand. Those who seek Him have ALREADY been born of the Spirit.[John 1:13, Romans 9:16, John 3:3, 3:5 & 3:8]



    Quote "And the bible avers that NONE seek Him."

    Right,in the flesh we dont seek Him.But we can,He tells us we can. I have proven that with Scripture.


    Quote "Yet many died never knowing Jesus existed. How can they call upon Him in whom they have not heard? Answer is they can't.

    Peter -
    "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

    If this is a true statement then all have the opportunity to come to Him. No one will die lost in sin because they did not get to hear the Gospel.That would make God unjust,which He is not.He says all creation points to Him.We will not die in sin without a chance to know God.


    Quote "
    This is mysticism and anti-Sola Scriptura. The word of God is the only thing to make one wise concerning salvation."

    No! It is not mysticism and I do not believe in that! God can and has used dreams within the Bible,not outside. It is not true that people will die in sin because they did not have a Bible in hand or heard the Gospel by mouth. Again that would make God cruel and unjust. How could I be blamed for not accepting God if I lived in the darkest part of the world and never physically heard the Gospel or held a Bible!? No,that is false.



    Quote "
    This is mysticism, anti-Sola Scriptura and anti-missionial. If all they need is this, there's no need to send missionaries."


    They had visions of Jesus and the missionary came to tell them more about the truth. And no,its not anti-anything. You cant say people are pre-elected on the one hand and man has nothing to do with salvation, and then turn around and say they'll die in sin if man doesn't preach the Gospel and intervene. If people are pre-elected they dont need to hear the Gospel,they're already on their way.


    Quote "Did the Spirit knock you off your ride? Did Jesus speak verbally to you? Of course not. You are using Paul's experience and conflating it with others. His was a rare occurrence and not to be as a way others have been saved."

    But He could speak to me verbally. Rare doesn't mean never.God will make Himself known to the sinner even if He has to knock us off our ride!


    Hebrews says God spoke though the prophets I dont see your point. And again you're talking out both sides of your mouth.If people go to hell for being sinners they dont go because they have not heard.Its one or the other,not both. God has made Himself known and we can be saved. And true Jews are Jews,not the church. Read Romans 11.










  15. #475
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by valiant View Post
    You were deal in trespasses and sins. It sounds literal to me. It declares the state and condition in which I was, not just a potential condition which might not happen. It is already fulfilled,
    Were that the case you would be in torments along with the rich man in Luke 16:24
    So?
    Really?
    Because we were both dead to God and dead in trespasses and sins.

    We have to be reborn, regenerated, made alive in Christ,.
    Yes but why did you respond?

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post

    Quote "
    Those who are under the power of sin are those who do not understand, do not seek Him. "

    But they can!!! They can seek Him and be born again.That is the work of the Holy Spirit!
    We are not denying "they can." We have never said they can't. We are declaring "they won't without God quickening/regenerating/bringing new life to them." Dumber still? You agree with that!

    And by now, since this has been said at least 100 times, I believe it is something you simply refuse to acknowledge as your "proof" that "Calvin" is wrong. (Bless the dear man's heart, he wasn't even here talking. lol) You aren't talking to Calvin, you're talking to us and telling us we're wrong on stuff we never said. No one can be wrong for things they've never said, so either you have gone full defense despite proof to the contrary, or you are putting words in our mouth. Either way, that's on you, not anyone else.

    I really feel like this is something like a teen asking her mother if she can go to the dance, the mother says yes, and then the teen keeps blasting her mother for all the reasons she should be able to go without ever noticing her mother already agreed she could go. I'm beginning to wonder if I should lay out your dress for you, or ground you from the dance just on pure obstinance.

    One thing for sure -- 100 pages later, and you're still not hearing!
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    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post

    He believed!! They said "believe"!! They didn't say "oh wait,this may not work,you may or may not be elected.So you can believe but you may be one of those poor fools that was made for destruction and may go to hell anyway" They said "believe" he did and was saved. So simple a child can understand.
    Since we have told you over and over again this scenario is just not so, but you still play this game, I've had it!

    You can either apologize for lying about what we are saying, or you hit ignore land too. I'm really tired of being lied about. You have misrepresented reformed theology from the beginning. I took that as naivety. You're no longer naive. So either stop lying about what it is, or it is over between you and me!

    Of course that let's you keep lying about it, but considering how often it has been proven not true, I'll gladly accept no one is buying the lie anyway except the ones who like the lie.
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    Lynn

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    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post

    He believed!! They said "believe"!! They didn't say "oh wait,this may not work,you may or may not be elected.So you can believe but you may be one of those poor fools that was made for destruction and may go to hell anyway" They said "believe" he did and was saved. So simple a child can understand.
    Yeah, but he already just happened to be one of the special people..... though he didn't know it then, and never did know it, and never would know it for certain, until after he died. How crazy of the Bible to tell us we already have the certainty and assurance of being saved. LOL
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by BeyondET View Post
    I'm worry because things just what you said, you kick out John 20:17 like it doesn't exists, in your mind you think this happen at the end of the bible. Can you explain why Jesus said this in the morning of the resurrection. He said go and tell His deciples He is ascending, the blind have been leading the blind to many times in this world.

    John 20:17
    Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    did He change His mind and ascend after the forty days. Really open your eyes




    Quote "Lot's of disdain being displayed above toward God's electing grace...really, really sad. It is also a straw man argument intended to be inflammatory toward those of us who believe what Scripture teaches concerning election.


    You know I really get tired of people playing the victim when their belief is questioned. This is a discussion forum,we discuss.If you cant take people questioning Calvinism you're in the wrong place. Im Pentecostal,no one gets more flack than us. So please spare us the victim card.Asking questions is not being inflammatory. Im trying to dig to the truth of what you are saying and providing verses where I think you're wrong. Im not out to get anyone,Im out to share the truth and I call it as I see it.Has nothing to do with disdain.So stop it.


    Quote "Now, as for children, don't be so certain and presumptuous, use wise caution. I say this from experience of seeing children doing this without even understanding anything about the Gospel. Over-zealous parents are the primary cause, or VBS, where they have gotten the child to raise their hand "if they want to go to heaven" then they get dunked. Maybe that's your gospel method, but it isn't the Bible's Gospel nor method of salvation. What must the child understand? That they want to go to heaven? That they want to do it because their friend got baptized, so they too want to get dunked? That if they give all the right answers to a check list, they're declared saved? (That's making mental assent to facts).

    No,talk about strawmen! That is not what I was saying at all.I said the Gospel is simple enough for a child to understand.Jesus came,He died for our sin,we can be saved.Simple.I said nothing about VBS,kids getting dunked or anything of the kind. I believe Sunday school is important for kids and VBS many parents have been brought to church to hear the truth because of these ministries.

    Quote "If you ask a child why he or she wants to be saved, ask them if they know what Jesus is saving them from, without putting words in their mouth like "Do you realize you're a sinner?" and/or "Do you want to go to heaven when you die? Let me show you from the Bible that you can go to heaven when you die?" That is all manipulation. If God is working in them to be saved they'll know this, because they have been convicted, and they don't need to answer a check list of statements and make mental assent to it.

    You're way off the reservation. Have no idea what you're going on about. I said the Gospel is simple to understand and you're off on a tangent. But again,I think the Gospel is for all,as Gods Word said. It seems by what you're saying we have to drag half the kids out of the room because they're not supposed to be convicted about heaven. Telling kids about the Gospel is a good thing to do and it is a ministry.


    Quote"Many are using the false invention of Finney in dealing with people and are clueless to it; (his anxious seat invention, where deciding for heaven is the same thing as making a career choice, and many false converts were added to local congregations). People use "the chair illustration" "Being saved is just like sitting in this chair, you sit in it because you know by faith it will support you. It's the same with Jesus." This is conflating common trust with the supernatural gift of faith. It is spiritual chicanery, manipulation, craftiness in the negative sense, and what Scripture calls underhanded ways of presenting the Gospel; 2 Corinthians 4:2.

    This is why there are so many false conversions. Obviously God did a work in the heart of the jailer which is why he believed. We believe only by the power of God that raised Christ from the dead; Ephesians 1:19. "



    I have no problem with people coming to an altar.I was in traveling ministry 20yrs had a lot of altar calls in that time.If you're going to tell me all that came to the altar were false conversions I;ll tell you that nonsense. Now,I do not believe that simply going to the altar saves you and you're good for life.We never gave those kinds of calls. But the altar is where many have been drawn by the Holy Spirit,convicted of sin and accepted Him. Some dont grow,some walk away like the parable of the sower.That doesn't make altar calls wrong.The jailer believed and was saved,simple enough for a child to understand.

  20. #480
    Senior Member kaylagrl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by BeyondET View Post
    I'm worry because things just what you said, you kick out John 20:17 like it doesn't exists, in your mind you think this happen at the end of the bible. Can you explain why Jesus said this in the morning of the resurrection. He said go and tell His deciples He is ascending, the blind have been leading the blind to many times in this world.

    John 20:17
    Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    did He change His mind and ascend after the forty days. Really open your eyes


    ​Jesus ascended once! And Hes coming back. He went up one time!

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