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Thread: Lets Talk Free Choice

  1. #41
    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    I decided not to post in this thread, so I must have free choice.

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    In the Bible there are verses that take about choice,about the free will of man. Why would God say such things if the choice of election had already been made?

    Joshua says,
    And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

    If the choice has been made before we reach earth why say "choose"?


    Rev. says,

    Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

    Again it is shown that man has a choice,Jesus is knocking,He is calling.

    Deut.,

    I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,...

    Again,that word,choose. Choose life. How can we choose if the choice was made for us?


    Romans says,

    Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.


    Ezek. says,

    “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”


    Is. -“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

    2 Peter,

    The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

    These verses show me that man is able to make a choice for against good and evil. That man is told to repent,to turn,to come.All of which would not be necessary if we were already elected.


    I agree with you that there are verses in the Bible that talk about choice. I disagree with you that there are verses in the Bible that talk about free will.

    And as for "Why would God say such things if the choice of election had already been made?" Hasn't he already told us how he chooses to bring about his eternal kingdom? Is that somehow unfair because we already know how this ends?

    Did God not determine Trump would be President before he became President? Did he not choose Obama before he became President? Did that end our election?

    Did God not choose Abraham to be the Father of a nation God chose? Did God not know that meant his people would spend 400 years at the whim of Egyptians? Did that not mean God knew his nation would have to wipe out nations already living in that land? And although he decreed those people had to wipe out those nations, did God not know those people would not do what God told them to do?

    God's not strolling along to see what Man will do and then pick up the pieces. He preordained what would happen because he is sovereign. Even the Pharaoh was beginning to give in, but God would not have that because it went against what God would do. The Pharaoh had free will and willed evil. God trapped him in that will for God's divine purposes.

    And if you think that's not how God works it today, it's time to reread Romans 1, because he's still doing that. Man chooses evil. That is our default mode. Sometimes God has mercy on us anyway. Sometimes people are sealed into that evil even further than they ever planned. He hardens some. This is what he does with free will.

    It includes election. He's the one at the voting booth, not us. He's the only voter who gets his way each and every time. Just because everyone thinks they're the winners of the election doesn't mean God concurs with that decision. Hilary thought she won. God elected a different strategy. (And we do not know if that was for the good of America or the bad of America yet.)

    This is infinitely fair because God reigns sovereignly!!!
    Angela53510 and ForthAngel like this.
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    I decided not to post in this thread, so I must have free choice.
    Umm. Yeah.,about that NOT posting..
    kaylagrl likes this.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Depleted's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by pckts View Post
    This is a topic atheists love to ponder and the propaganda machine supporting them raises questions and casts doubts about.

    Why does the government and atheism support this kind of thinking? Is it because it is true, or because it is backed by the scientific community and the philosophers or champions of atheism propped up by the government?

    The Bible says we have free-will, and all the people who have an agenda and vested interest against The Bible say we do not have free will.

    Who is more likely to lie to you?
    I would think the person who could prove "the Bible says we have free will." lol

    (I have yet to meet that person though. And I suspect your response to me --if you even respond to me -- will include many things from the Bible about people choosing, but nothing about free will.)
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

  5. #45
    Senior Member FreeNChrist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice


    "But I did not want to do anything without first getting your consent, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will."
    Phil 14

    “How foolish can you be? After starting your new lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?”
    Gal 3:3



  6. #46
    Senior Member FreeNChrist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    "On Calvinism, both the statement that our final destination is already settled and the view that it still may be either Heaven or Hell, seem to me to imply the ultimate reality of Time, which I don't believe in. The controversy is one I can’t join on either side for I think that in the real (Timeless) world it is meaningless."


    "All that Calvinist question — Free-Will and Predestination, is to my mind undiscussable, insoluble. Of course (say us) if a man repents God will accept him. Ah yes, (say they) but the fact of his repenting shows that God has already moved him to do so. This at any rate leaves us with the fact that in any concrete case the question never arrives as a practical one. But I suspect it is really a meaningless question. The difference between Freedom and Necessity is fairly clear on the bodily level: we know the difference between making our teeth chatter on purpose and just finding them chattering with cold. It begins to be less clear when we talk of human love (leaving out the erotic kind). ‘Do I like him because I choose or because I must?’ — there are cases where this has an answer, but others where it seems to me to mean nothing. When we carry it up to relations between God and Man, has the distinction perhaps become nonsensical? After all, when we are most free, it is only with a freedom God has given us: and when our will is most influenced by Grace, it is still our will. And if what our will does is not ‘voluntary’, and if ‘voluntary’ does not mean ‘free’, what are we talking about? I’d leave it all alone."


    - C S Lewis
    Grandpa and peacefulbeliever like this.

    “How foolish can you be? After starting your new lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?”
    Gal 3:3



  7. #47
    Senior Member phil36's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Hi Kaylagrl,

    Another good topic you have started. I like listening to Ravi, he has some very good things to say especially on philosophical thought.

    So the title of the topic is free will. It would be interesting for you to let us know exactly what that means? I would say our nature dictates our wills and in that sense is free to choose. Let's look at it another way if our nature does not dictate our will then we can choose to do Holy things, pleasing to God without being regenerate. However, we know that this is not true as no one is righteous unless in Christ and our works while unregenerate are as filthy rags.

    The dead man will only do dead works. His will is free yet it will not do anything that is not in our nature to do, contrary to a dear old aunt saying that it was not in her nephew's nature to commit that crime...I can't understand it, she would exclaim. Anyone who knows the bible will be able to say...Yes, it is in his nature to do so. In other words, the free choices we make are always determined by our nature..who we are. We are either in darkness or light.

    When we refer to free will we refer to the moral will, no one is morally pleasing to God...and can never be unless God renews their heart. Darkness will never choose light, because of its nature, God renews the heart and mind so that you can see the light with new eyes. You see we are not robots, but the bible describes us as slaves, we are either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ..there is no middle position.

    There is no such thing as human autonomous free will!
    Last edited by phil36; May 16th, 2017 at 06:57 PM.
    Angela53510 and ForthAngel like this.
    Soli Deo Gloria

    "After all, there is a Protestantism still worth contending for, there is a Calvinism still worth proclaiming, and a gospel well worth dying for" - C H Spurgeon



    • "What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..." - Matthew Henry

  8. #48
    Senior Member FreeNChrist's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    My favorite Ravi quote.....

    "To give truth to one who does not love truth is to only give them more ammunition for misunderstanding."

    “How foolish can you be? After starting your new lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?”
    Gal 3:3



  9. #49
    Senior Member NoNameMcgee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    i believe in free will and divine intervention

    i can choose sin
    free will

    i can overcome and resist temptation
    Holy spirit


    i think what dictates this is a new heart for those who seek God, put their faith in Jesus and recieve the Holy spirit which makes your heart new?

    and i also think were all called to seek him through our lives

    and our free will can harden our hearts
    close our eyes
    shut our ears to this call

    maybe i butchered that, too much feelin's
    not enough scripture


    kinda just talking off the top here
    please dont let my opinion cause a stumbling block or divison here

    (._.')

  10. #50
    Senior Member Roughsoul1991's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by preacher4truth View Post
    Wonder why Jesus said "No one can come to me unless it has been granted by the Father" instead of "No one may come to Me unless it has been granted by the Father?"

    Because no one has the ability, that's why. "No one can" = incapable. Most of us grew up and found out that there is a difference between "can" and "may."

    Scripture attests time and again we don't have the ability, and it isn't via choice. And, of course that would mean God isn't fair, so, gotta find a proof text to neutralize all of that.
    Well first Gods draws all people and second people come to Jesus by hearing the Word.
    Sometimes we must not be afraid to ask why and question everything we Know!

    http://www.onenewsnow.com/
    http://christianchat.com/testimonies...nto-storm.html Led into the Storm
    http://christianchat.com/testimonies...testimony.html
    My revelation Story.

  11. #51
    Senior Member preacher4truth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    i believe in free will and divine intervention

    i can choose sin
    free will

    i can overcome and resist temptation
    Holy spirit


    i think what dictates this is a new heart for those who seek God, put their faith in Jesus and recieve the Holy spirit which makes your heart new?

    and i also think were all called to seek him through our lives

    and our free will can harden our hearts
    close our eyes
    shut our ears to this call

    maybe i butchered that, too much feelin's
    not enough scripture


    kinda just talking off the top here
    please dont let my opinion cause a stumbling block or divison here

    (._.')
    Well, you're talking about ones will post-conversion. I believe people are talking about pre-conversion will, in which no one is free in their wills by any means; John 8:35. And no man is saved via human decision; John 1:13; Romans 9:16; 1 Peter 1:1ff.
    People are offended that God is God.

    Oh, my brethren! bold-hearted men are always called mean-spirited by cowards. - Charles Spurgeon

    I threw out the writings of Moses because he killed that Egyptian guy.

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    Senior Member Roughsoul1991's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    John 6:45New International Version (NIV)

    45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[a] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

    John 12:32New International Version (NIV)

    32 And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
    Desertsrose likes this.
    Sometimes we must not be afraid to ask why and question everything we Know!

    http://www.onenewsnow.com/
    http://christianchat.com/testimonies...nto-storm.html Led into the Storm
    http://christianchat.com/testimonies...testimony.html
    My revelation Story.

  13. #53
    Senior Member preacher4truth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Roughsoul1991 View Post
    Well first Gods draws all people
    No, sorry. Matthew 11:25-30. God doesn't fit into men's finite concept of fairness. Many have never heard and have died lost.

    and second people come to Jesus by hearing the Word.
    Actually, faith comes by hearing. I'm fairly certain that if you are like many, you believe faith is innate, contrary to Romans 10:17 and other Scriptures.

    Why would they need the Word when God already brought every single person who has ever lived to Himself already? (my question is rhetorical, it doesn't need answered, I am not asking you for information) The drawing implies that salvation will occur. It isn't referring to an opportunity to cast the deciding vote.
    People are offended that God is God.

    Oh, my brethren! bold-hearted men are always called mean-spirited by cowards. - Charles Spurgeon

    I threw out the writings of Moses because he killed that Egyptian guy.

  14. #54
    Senior Member Desertsrose's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    I would think the person who could prove "the Bible says we have free will." lol(I have yet to meet that person though. And I suspect your response to me --if you even respond to me -- will include many things from the Bible about people choosing, but nothing about free will.)
    Hi Lynn,How can a person have free choice without God giving them free will? To choose means I will one thing to happen or not.
    Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

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    Senior Member NoNameMcgee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by preacher4truth View Post
    Well, you're talking about ones will post-conversion. I believe people are talking about pre-conversion will, in which no one is free in their wills by any means; John 8:35. And no man is saved via human decision; John 1:13; Romans 9:16; 1 Peter 1:1ff.
    my bad only read the title

    wouldnt disagree with that for a second

  16. #56
    Senior Member NoNameMcgee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    wish i remembered that day better though

    i remember crying like a child for the first time in who knows how long

    and telling every family member i could get ahold of

    no one seemed as effected as i was in that moment


    (that God is real and Jesus is truth)
    Last edited by NoNameMcgee; May 16th, 2017 at 08:04 PM.

  17. #57
    Senior Member Desertsrose's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by phil36 View Post
    Hi Kaylagrl,

    Another good topic you have started. I like listening to Ravi, he has some very good things to say especially on philosophical thought.

    So the title of the topic is free will. It would be interesting for you to let us know exactly what that means? I would say our nature dictates our wills and in that sense is free to choose. Let's look at it another way if our nature does not dictate our will then we can choose to do Holy things, pleasing to God without being regenerate. However, we know that this is not true as no one is righteous unless in Christ and our works while unregenerate are as filthy rags.

    The dead man will only do dead works. His will is free yet it will not do anything that is not in our nature to do, contrary to a dear old aunt saying that it was not in her nephew's nature to commit that crime...I can't understand it, she would exclaim. Anyone who knows the bible will be able to say...Yes, it is in his nature to do so. In other words, the free choices we make are always determined by our nature..who we are. We are either in darkness or light.

    When we refer to free will we refer to the moral will, no one is morally pleasing to God...and can never be unless God renews their heart. Darkness will never choose light, because of its nature, God renews the heart and mind so that you can see the light with new eyes. You see we are not robots, but the bible describes us as slaves, we are either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ..there is no middle position.

    There is no such thing as human autonomous free will!

    Hi Phil,

    Romans 1:18-25

    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

    For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

    For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

    Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever.
    Amen.


    ~
    Mankind knows the truth and suppress it with their unrighteous deeds. God has made Himself evident to all and He constantly shows us in the old and the new that their free will to choose life or not.

    In their knowledge of God they by their own free will chose not to acknowledge Him as God, they neither gave Him thanks nor Honored Him as God. Instead they became futile in their thinking and began to worship creatures that God made instead of God Himself.

    So mankind knows truth, they know God and yet they of their own free will, they choose to exchange the truth for a lie and live their lives without Him, finding other ways to worship. If they don't worship and serve God, the only other alternative is to worship creation.

    So in the final analysis, they are without excuse and they willingly choose to come under God's wrath.
    kaylagrl likes this.
    Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

  18. #58
    Senior Member Roughsoul1991's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by preacher4truth View Post
    No, sorry. Matthew 11:25-30. God doesn't fit into men's finite concept of fairness. Many have never heard and have died lost.



    Actually, faith comes by hearing. I'm fairly certain that if you are like many, you believe faith is innate, contrary to Romans 10:17 and other Scriptures.

    Why would they need the Word when God already brought every single person who has ever lived to Himself already? (my question is rhetorical, it doesn't need answered, I am not asking you for information) The drawing implies that salvation will occur. It isn't referring to an opportunity to cast the deciding vote.
    Im just commanded to preach truth no matter if its hard to swallow. Romans 9:16 is just another verse you twist to fit your beliefs.

    Its speaking of salvation. Meaning no one could of saved themselves without the mercy of God to send his one and only son to die so that everyone may have the chance to be saved.

    Obviously not everyone will be saved. Why? Because they denied the grace that God wants to give everyone.

    It's simple stop corrupting truth and open your eyes.
    Sometimes we must not be afraid to ask why and question everything we Know!

    http://www.onenewsnow.com/
    http://christianchat.com/testimonies...nto-storm.html Led into the Storm
    http://christianchat.com/testimonies...testimony.html
    My revelation Story.

  19. #59
    Senior Member Roughsoul1991's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Desertsrose View Post

    Hi Phil,

    Romans 1:18-25

    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

    For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

    For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

    Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever.
    Amen.


    ~
    Mankind knows the truth and suppress it with their unrighteous deeds. God has made Himself evident to all and He constantly shows us in the old and the new that their free will to choose life or not.

    In their knowledge of God they by their own free will chose not to acknowledge Him as God, they neither gave Him thanks nor Honored Him as God. Instead they became futile in their thinking and began to worship creatures that God made instead of God Himself.

    So mankind knows truth, they know God and yet they of their own free will, they choose to exchange the truth for a lie and live their lives without Him, finding other ways to worship. If they don't worship and serve God, the only other alternative is to worship creation.

    So in the final analysis, they are without excuse and they willingly choose to come under God's wrath.
    Amen exactly great post
    Desertsrose likes this.
    Sometimes we must not be afraid to ask why and question everything we Know!

    http://www.onenewsnow.com/
    http://christianchat.com/testimonies...nto-storm.html Led into the Storm
    http://christianchat.com/testimonies...testimony.html
    My revelation Story.

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    Senior Member preacher4truth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    wish i remembered that day better though

    i remember crying like a child for the first time in who knows how long

    and telling every family member i could get ahold of

    no one seemed as effected as i was in that moment


    (that God is real and Jesus is truth)
    Don't fret it, perhaps they will be saved. Remember; “A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household.” Matthew 6:4.
    People are offended that God is God.

    Oh, my brethren! bold-hearted men are always called mean-spirited by cowards. - Charles Spurgeon

    I threw out the writings of Moses because he killed that Egyptian guy.

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