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Thread: Lets Talk Free Choice

  1. #581
    Senior Member ForthAngel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    I have not even registered any philosophical ideas, they have only some very primitive feelings about it, but they are unable to even define the term properly...
    Which is why I hope the thread keeps going. The one philosophical idea that I keep seeing is based on emotional responses as you said. "It would be unloving of God to..." and then they attach their straw man against reformed theology "make us all robots".
    Angela53510 and trofimus like this.
    Look now to our adversaries (I mean the priesthood, at whose beck and pleasure others
    ply their enmity against us), and consider with me for a little by what zeal they are actuated.
    The true religion which is delivered in the Scriptures, and which all ought to hold, they
    readily permit both themselves and others to be ignorant of, to neglect and despise;

  2. #582
    Senior Member preacher4truth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    What about this verse for those who love to use the "robot" argument:

    How about this one:

    "He makes me to lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters." - Psalm 23:2



    ...and this one:


    "And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." - Ezekiel 36:27



    ...and this one:


    "...for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." - Philippians 2:13



    What a crying shame for our "personal freedom" right?

    Nope.

    Thanks be to Him that He works in us to this end or we'd frankly be lost.
    Last edited by preacher4truth; 1 Week Ago at 03:33 PM.
    People are offended that God is God.

    Oh, my brethren! bold-hearted men are always called mean-spirited by cowards. - Charles Spurgeon

    I threw out the writings of Moses because he killed that Egyptian guy.

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by ForthAngel View Post
    Which is why I hope the thread keeps going. The one philosophical idea that I keep seeing is based on emotional responses as you said. "It would be unloving of God to..." and then they attach their straw man against reformed theology "make us all robots".

    ...and "we have free will so we can come to God out of genuine love for Him."
    Angela53510 and ForthAngel like this.
    People are offended that God is God.

    Oh, my brethren! bold-hearted men are always called mean-spirited by cowards. - Charles Spurgeon

    I threw out the writings of Moses because he killed that Egyptian guy.

  4. #584
    Senior Member PennEd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by PennEd View Post
    I remember when I was 16 or so, shortly after my father died, wrestling with this question, although it wasn't really a question. It was just thoughts I wrote down, which I NEVER did, or do, in a composition book. I lost it maybe 35 years ago.

    How can God give free will to a created being? Yet if He didn't, how can a being without freewill give TRUE love?
    I remember at the time writing He must have given man free will or we would have been glorified robots that gave programmed love. Which isn't really love. Or, is it?
    Well, if God didn't give freewill, then why would Adam and Eve EVER sin, and NOT do God's will always. But I distinctly remember writing that because of man's freewill, God has PAIN! Or sorrow.
    Think about that. We can cause pain and grief to our Creator!
    So we HAVE to have freewill to choose Jesus! You all know the Scriptures dealing with choosing Him.

    BUT....

    How can
    Alright. That's the freewill side. Now the predestination side. There are a multitude of verses dealing with God's Sovereignty relative to Election or Predestination. The ones I have been thinking about recently Ephesians
    2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

    So you can see we WERE clearly dead. Jesus affirms this by saying "let the dead bury their dead". We have been saved by Grace through faith, AND EVEN THE FAITH is NOT from us, but a gift from God.

    I can just stop there, but of course there are a whole host of other passages that clearly state that God chose us.

    So what to think? We clearly may choose Jesus. But it's just as clear, maybe clearer, that God chose us.

    I just don't think we need to even be concerned with this answer. THERE IS NO WAY WE CAN DEFINITIVELY ANSWER IT ANYWAY! God will explain it to us when He comes for us.

    I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, but when that discussion breaks down to hurting each other, what have we gained?

    We believe in the One True King!! Let's love each other and spread the Gospel in that love.


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  5. #585
    Senior Member notuptome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by PennEd View Post
    Alright. That's the freewill side. Now the predestination side. There are a multitude of verses dealing with God's Sovereignty relative to Election or Predestination. The ones I have been thinking about recently Ephesians
    2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

    So you can see we WERE clearly dead. Jesus affirms this by saying "let the dead bury their dead". We have been saved by Grace through faith, AND EVEN THE FAITH is NOT from us, but a gift from God.

    I can just stop there, but of course there are a whole host of other passages that clearly state that God chose us.

    So what to think? We clearly may choose Jesus. But it's just as clear, maybe clearer, that God chose us.

    I just don't think we need to even be concerned with this answer. THERE IS NO WAY WE CAN DEFINITIVELY ANSWER IT ANYWAY! God will explain it to us when He comes for us.

    I'm not saying it shouldn't be discussed, but when that discussion breaks down to hurting each other, what have we gained?

    We believe in the One True King!! Let's love each other and spread the Gospel in that love.


    I have never considered that passage to be teaching predestination of the fashion that Calvinism teaches. Our predestination is because we are in Christ. We are not predestined to be in Christ. Correlation is not causation.

    What caused you to consider that it was important that you be quickened? Why did it become necessary for you to be born again? Who told you that you were dead?

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass
    use it to examine yourself not others.

  6. #586
    Senior Member Stephen63's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    Wow, a lady I respected and considered a sister in the Lord put me on ignore. What a sad day. Perhaps I need to step out of CC. If our beliefs are so important that we would write off a brother/sister in the Lord that says something to me. We're no different than Islam,kill even your own family if they disagree.What a shameful thing happening at CC. Shameful. How can the lost be saved when we're so hateful to our own family in the Lord? Sad day.
    KG I put her on ignore about two months ago cuz she would jump back & forth first agreeing, then arguing. I did some others, too.

    After that, life got much more simpler.

  7. #587
    Senior Member PennEd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by notuptome View Post
    I have never considered that passage to be teaching predestination of the fashion that Calvinism teaches. Our predestination is because we are in Christ. We are not predestined to be in Christ. Correlation is not causation.

    What caused you to consider that it was important that you be quickened? Why did it become necessary for you to be born again? Who told you that you were dead?

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    I am not arguing the Calvinist teaching. Elements of my post may coincide with some, but I reject being filed in an Arminian or Calvinist box. I am addressing freewill vs. Election/Predestination.

    In answer to your questions I will simply say I was asked to go to my brother's Church, coming from a catholic school and background, I did't want anything to do with Church. But for SOME reason, I went to his Church, where I heard the True Gospel, saw the Holy Spirit Present in that Church, and shortly thereafter confessed my need for a Savior, and asked Jesus to save me as that Lord and Savior.

    Did I go because I mentally agreed with the Bible and I chose to go? Did God draw me there and give me the faith to believe and accept His Son?

    YES...... to both.
    Depleted and notmyown like this.

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    Senior Member Johnny_B's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Ravi is wrong, God does as He wills and we do not chose to love Him because of any will of ours, we chose to love Him because He first loved us. I John 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

    It has nothing to do with our will and everything to do with God's will, Ravi let his doctrine over ride what the Bible says about why we love God and
    misrepresented what foreknowledge and election is about, by saying that it is a robotic response if God is responsible for us loving Him. It is the natural response of someone that is set free of slavery. As mentioned will and chose are two different things. Ravi is a good speaker, but he never quotes that bible in ny of the videos that I've seen with him.
    Angela53510 likes this.
    John 6:63, 65 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life....65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

    I Corinthians 4:7 "For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?"

    Born in the Spirit & word, granted by the Father. EE-TEOW




  9. #589
    Senior Member PennEd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Ha!! Checked out my wife's facebook after leaving here and this was one of the 1st things I saw! There's enough here so everyone can laugh......er get offended!

    Doing theology is hard. But we here at The Babylon Bee want to make it easier than the first world in Super Mario Bros 3! In this article, we’ll briefly explain key differences between Calvinism and Arminianism, so you’ll be smart enough to blast people on your Facebook feed the next time the discussion comes up.
    DEFINITIONS


    Calvinism: Theological framework that centers around God’s sovereign choice in salvation. The points of Calvinism include total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints, and being a condescending jerk.
    Arminianism: Theology that focuses on man’s free will to choose or reject God. The five points are kinda-sorta depravity, election but not really, errybody gets some atonement, grace that looks pretty cool but you can say no if you want to, and better hang onto that salvation pretty tightly.
    ORIGINS

    Calvinism: Originally discovered in a remote California forest by a pipe-smoking lumberjack, Calvinism was first codified in book form by John Piper in his 1986 classic Desiring God. Piper was said to have yelled “Eureka!” and hugged his Jonathan Edwards plush doll in joy upon discovering the beauty of the doctrines of grace.
    Arminianism: Grew out of the backwoods of Appalachia in the 1950s, where the Holy Ghost is active, preachers wear suits, church signs are hand-painted, and snakes are handled.
    FAMOUS ADHERENTS

    Calvinism: Anyone named John, that really annoying guy on your Facebook feed, the Apostle Paul.
    Arminianism: Jacobus Arminius, John Wesley, Billy Graham, Satan.
    PROMINENT WORKS

    Calvinism: That long-winded Facebook rant your Calvinist friend goes on almost every week, Final Destination 3, the Book of Romans.
    Arminianism: Back to the Future, The Matrix, Chick tracts.
    HOW TO SPOT A FOLLOWER

    Calvinism: Look for long, flowing beards, flannel T-shirts, and empty bottles of craft brew strewn around their location. The Calvinist can also be identified by that smug sense of superiority he carries about his person.
    Arminianism: Look for an expression of concern on their face as they desperately try not to lose their salvation today. Calvary Chapel summer camp T-shirts, acoustic guitars, and Rainbow sandals are also key indicators.
    So there you have it! We hope this helped you make an informed decision on which of these theological systems to choose—or is it “which of these theological systems chose you?”

  10. #590
    Senior Member preacher4truth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen63 View Post
    KG I put her on ignore about two months ago cuz she would jump back & forth first agreeing, then arguing. I did some others, too.

    After that, life got much more simpler.
    Can you see this? All who can see this give it a like so I know.
    Angela53510 and pottersclay like this.
    People are offended that God is God.

    Oh, my brethren! bold-hearted men are always called mean-spirited by cowards. - Charles Spurgeon

    I threw out the writings of Moses because he killed that Egyptian guy.

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    Senior Member preacher4truth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    Im with you totally. I keep throwing out the Holy Spirits drawing and keep getting ignored.Once again you've arrived at the heart of the matter.
    It appears it is the Father who does the drawing; John 6:44, and the Son; John 12:32. The Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment; John 16:8. Of course He also helps with our understanding of spiritual matters; 1 Corinthians 2. Seems they each have complementing but differing roles. Maybe there is a passage that shows the Spirit draws, but none come to mind.
    Angela53510 and ForthAngel like this.
    People are offended that God is God.

    Oh, my brethren! bold-hearted men are always called mean-spirited by cowards. - Charles Spurgeon

    I threw out the writings of Moses because he killed that Egyptian guy.

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    Senior Member preacher4truth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    I don't believe that if a person puts another on ignore that it means they are written off as a brother or sister. That's assuming too much. If one of our children gets annoying, we may put them to their room but it doesn't mean they've been written off as children, but it sure makes things serene when you can't hear them for a bit.

    Same thing here, when some here lie, and do other things to annoy and inflame, as seems their objective and practice, there is an ignore feature. But then again I'm not naìve to think that just because monikers are on a Christian forum that they are representing truly converted individuals. But, the amount of lying on this forum is what gets me.
    People are offended that God is God.

    Oh, my brethren! bold-hearted men are always called mean-spirited by cowards. - Charles Spurgeon

    I threw out the writings of Moses because he killed that Egyptian guy.

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    Senior Member Angela53510's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    Actually Calvinists churches are thriving and growing at revival rates. Arminians are dying.

    Amazing what happens when the message gets out:
    God saves. Choice does not!

    The other thing I have noticed with Arminian churches, is they have to twist the bible to make their doctrine work, so in the end, they really move away from the Bible in everything. Sometimes, that is becoming rigid and Pharisee-like, and sometimes the other way, in which the Bible is thrown out to accomodate culture.

    Good doctrine means we can keep relying on the Bible to guide and lead us, through the power of the Holy Spirit. Bad doctrine is the result of having to compromise, and that includes soteriology.

    If you want actual examples, I am loath to give them, because I know there are people here, strong Christians caught in those denominations. In Canada, the United church is my favourite example. They could call it the LBGTQ United Church of Canada!
    ForthAngel and preacher4truth like this.
    "And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me." 2 Cor. 12:9 NASB

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by ForthAngel View Post
    I never said it was. That Meggido guy seems to think it is though. I know your intent and have no hard feelings toward you as usual.
    Oh, come on now! Stop blaming the wrong person. I'm the one that said I don't participate in Calvinists-bashing threads, but this thread's purpose became just that. (Or something like that.) Not Meggido. Not Kayla. Not you. I said it.

    And Kayla is still telling everyone that Calvinists are saying there is no choice, (which is a lie), so it very much is not what the original intent of this thread was supposed to be. When all anyone does is start a thread to pick a group, lie about them, wait for everyone to join in too, and then pat each other on the back for joining in the lie to attack that group, that's bashing!
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by kaylagrl View Post
    Wow, a lady I respected and considered a sister in the Lord put me on ignore. What a sad day. Perhaps I need to step out of CC. If our beliefs are so important that we would write off a brother/sister in the Lord that says something to me. We're no different than Islam,kill even your own family if they disagree.What a shameful thing happening at CC. Shameful. How can the lost be saved when we're so hateful to our own family in the Lord? Sad day.
    And yet you continue! I did not ignore you for your beliefs. I ignored you for constantly lying about Reformed beliefs. And you're right. How can you be so hateful to your own family?
    Lynn

    Still woman, but no lady.

    And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

  16. #596
    Senior Member ForthAngel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    Oh, come on now! Stop blaming the wrong person. I'm the one that said I don't participate in Calvinists-bashing threads, but this thread's purpose became just that. (Or something like that.) Not Meggido. Not Kayla. Not you. I said it.

    And Kayla is still telling everyone that Calvinists are saying there is no choice, (which is a lie), so it very much is not what the original intent of this thread was supposed to be. When all anyone does is start a thread to pick a group, lie about them, wait for everyone to join in too, and then pat each other on the back for joining in the lie to attack that group, that's bashing!
    My bad Meggido. Thought she was referring to you since she quoted you. I was a little confused at the question anyway.
    Depleted likes this.
    Look now to our adversaries (I mean the priesthood, at whose beck and pleasure others
    ply their enmity against us), and consider with me for a little by what zeal they are actuated.
    The true religion which is delivered in the Scriptures, and which all ought to hold, they
    readily permit both themselves and others to be ignorant of, to neglect and despise;

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    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Marano View Post
    I didn't say faith is forced on us against our will, I said faith is a gift of God, and that it's not inherent of ourselves, as many say faith is man's contribution to salvation, without it God can't save men, well scripture says faith comes from God, so any faith we have is God given and not our own.
    Right, it is a gift we receive IF we don't reject it. So it is not forced on us, I never said you said that, I asked for Scripture that states it, and it does not exist, because it is not forced on us against our will, if we do not want it.


    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Lol PennEd, how you managed to offend both sides in one post is outstanding.
    PennEd and notmyown like this.

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    I have not even registered any philosophical ideas, they have only some very primitive feelings about it, but they are unable to even define the term properly...
    I am curious to know what you mean by primitive feelings? It has been said that no Scripture is given to support the idea that we have a choice, is that correct? But I wonder, too, why Jesus would exhort us to repent and believe if we had no choice in the matter. Faith is certainly a gift we receive IF we do not reject it, for it is not forced on us against our will, and from then on, how do we participate in the building of our faith? I can hardly think anyone really believes we just sit back and God does all the work of relieving us of our own ways of thinking... although, honestly, some people do talk that way, like there is some sin-all-you-want-and-get-out-of-jail-free card that others employ, while they tout the sinless perfection line.


    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Marano View Post
    Then you're not disagreeing with me you're disagreeing with scripture.

    Ephesians 2:8New King James Version (NKJV)

    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
    Brother his premise is wrong, he thinks God forces one to place faith in Him, when the natural response is loving God back, no forced love. A choice of gratitude for being set free.
    Angela53510 and notmyown like this.
    John 6:63, 65 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life....65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

    I Corinthians 4:7 "For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?"

    Born in the Spirit & word, granted by the Father. EE-TEOW




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