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Thread: Lets Talk Free Choice

  1. #601
    Senior Member maxwel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela53510 View Post
    The other thing I have noticed with Arminian churches, is they have to twist the bible to make their doctrine work, so in the end, they really move away from the Bible in everything. Sometimes, that is becoming rigid and Pharisee-like, and sometimes the other way, in which the Bible is thrown out to accomodate culture.

    Good doctrine means we can keep relying on the Bible to guide and lead us, through the power of the Holy Spirit. Bad doctrine is the result of having to compromise, and that includes soteriology.

    If you want actual examples, I am loath to give them, because I know there are people here, strong Christians caught in those denominations. In Canada, the United church is my favourite example. They could call it the LBGTQ United Church of Canada!

    Seriously, can't we just be happy they even HAVE churches in Armenia?

    Some countries don't have any churches at all.

    Geesh.

  2. #602
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela53510 View Post
    The other thing I have noticed with Arminian churches, is they have to twist the bible to make their doctrine work, so in the end, they really move away from the Bible in everything. Sometimes, that is becoming rigid and Pharisee-like, and sometimes the other way, in which the Bible is thrown out to accomodate culture.

    Good doctrine means we can keep relying on the Bible to guide and lead us, through the power of the Holy Spirit. Bad doctrine is the result of having to compromise, and that includes soteriology.

    If you want actual examples, I am loath to give them, because I know there are people here, strong Christians caught in those denominations. In Canada, the United church is my favourite example. They could call it the LBGTQ United Church of Canada!
    People became tired over the same old shallow theology of anti-calvinist and non-calvinist churches. It seems the sheep wanted fed, they wanted truth, and they found both in the Doctrines of Grace and Biblical expository preaching churches.

    The churches that aren't solid in doctrine really became a place to hear an "uplifting encouraging message," and the infamous "how to" messages laden in psycho-babble. That is what they heard because the messages were made to draw a crowd and using carnal methods that appealed to the flesh and to covetous, selfish desires. Not many pastors are studious enough to bring it when they preach, and sorry to say too many of them ad lib. If they do try exposition it misses so much that frankly it's pathetic.

    Sorry if that seems a bit harsh (and really, I just don't care to be honest) but the theological ineptness in our churches needs addressed. It is sad. We have some on here that ridicule others for their biblical acumen and knowledge and castigate them over it as if they should be ashamed. Allegedly ignorance is spirituality. If that were true then we have a lot of people that are really, really spiritual.

    But Scripture has a lot to say about growing in knowledge, of how very important it is, that it is an imperative. Study is commended as well as defense of truth.
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    People are offended that God is God.

    Oh, my brethren! bold-hearted men are always called mean-spirited by cowards. - Charles Spurgeon

    I threw out the writings of Moses because he killed that Egyptian guy.

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    Right, it is a gift we receive IF we don't reject it. So it is not forced on us, I never said you said that, I asked for Scripture that states it, and it does not exist, because it is not forced on us against our will, if we do not want it.
    Yeah both Calvinist and reformed believe that People can reject God's grace.


    The difference is that Reformed folks believe if God elects someone, He will change their hearts and minds until they accept Him.

    I believe free willers do too but they focus on the believers "choose", while reformed folks focus on God's Will.

    I really don't know what the issues between the camps are besides different terminology and a lot of misunderstanding of the same terms used in a different manner.

    Does the reformed camp accept the Council of Trent?

    I noticed the term "Prevenient grace " was used in their documents too.

  4. #604
    Senior Member preacher4truth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    And, FTR, by the time a person has "chosen" God, they were already regenerate in the first place. Human will and decision don't clinch salvation; John 1:13; Romans 9:16; James 1:18, God does that; 1 Peter 1:3.
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    People are offended that God is God.

    Oh, my brethren! bold-hearted men are always called mean-spirited by cowards. - Charles Spurgeon

    I threw out the writings of Moses because he killed that Egyptian guy.

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by preacher4truth View Post
    People became tired over the same old shallow theology of anti-calvinist and non-calvinist churches. It seems the sheep wanted fed, they wanted truth, and they found both in the Doctrines of Grace and Biblical expository preaching churches.

    The churches that aren't solid in doctrine really became a place to hear an "uplifting encouraging message," and the infamous "how to" messages laden in psycho-babble. That is what they heard because the messages were made to draw a crowd and using carnal methods that appealed to the flesh and to covetous, selfish desires. Not many pastors are studious enough to bring it when they preach, and sorry to say too many of them ad lib. If they do try exposition it misses so much that frankly it's pathetic.

    Sorry if that seems a bit harsh (and really, I just don't care to be honest) but the theological ineptness in our churches needs addressed. It is sad. We have some on here that ridicule others for their biblical acumen and knowledge and castigate them over it as if they should be ashamed. Allegedly ignorance is spirituality. If that were true then we have a lot of people that are really, really spiritual.

    But Scripture has a lot to say about growing in knowledge, of how very important it is, that it is an imperative. Study is commended as well as defense of truth.
    This is very true and teachers are held to a higher standard and should be able to teach on Biblical text.

    They should also be able to speak to people where they are at and help them move upwards towards where God wants them to be. Independent reading of the Bible and prayer should be encouraged in all Christians.

    I am not sure how people move through life without both.

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by preacher4truth View Post
    And, FTR, by the time a person has "chosen" God, they were already regenerate in the first place. Human will and decision don't clinch salvation; John 1:13; Romans 9:16; James 1:18, God does that; 1 Peter 1:3.
    Maybe so, but often it takes a while to show a person that they didn't chose God until long after God had already chosen them and placed people and worked upon their hearts to enable the ability for them to overcome this world and chose Him.
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    Senior Member Desertsrose's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Marano View Post
    Don't forget faith is a gift of God so that no one should boast.
    The faith that saved you according to your own words isn't yours, it was a gift of God. You can't say that God saved you because He saw that you had faith as opposed to somebody else who didn't, He gave you faith then saved you.

    God tells us to believe and have faith. It's not a work. We don't boast in our faith. We boast in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. I don't think I said that
    because I don't believe that the faith isn't mine.......even though I have nothing without God, He gave it to me, but it's mine alone.

    God doesn't believe for me. It's my faith. Just like when I finish the coarse and have run the race and go to be with my Maker, He will judge me according to my works, even though He enables me to do all that I do. Even though it's the Lord at work in me. He gets the glory, but it's still my works, just like it's my faith......He gave it to me and it's all mine. It's not yours, it's not my husbands or anyone elses, it's all mine. \o/ praise the Lord!!!

    I will be judged by my works when it's time to stand before God to give Him an account. He will not blame Himself and say gee I forgot to do that for you. No, I will give account for all He's enabled me to do ........hopefully I will run the race well like Paul, I don't want to be ashamed of what I didn't do, or what I did do that wasn't of Him. But I also know He will forgive me completely.
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    Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by maxwel View Post
    Seriously, can't we just be happy they even HAVE churches in Armenia?

    Some countries don't have any churches at all.

    Geesh.

    LOL...I love it!....Joy is a sign of the kingdom of God in us.
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  9. #609
    Senior Member pottersclay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    6​ The preparations of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the Lord. All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, But the Lord weighs the spirits. Commit your works to the Lord, And your thoughts will be established. The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. Everyone proud in heart is an abomination to the Lord; Though they join forces, none will go unpunished. In mercy and truth Atonement is provided for iniquity; And by the fear of the Lord one departs from evil.
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  10. #610
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    Actually Calvinists churches are thriving and growing at revival rates. Arminians are dying.

    Amazing what happens when the message gets out:
    God saves. Choice does not!
    I know that lots of Calvary Chapel people are going to the Reformed faith, even with all of their speaking out against it. If you teach verse by verse and tell people to read the Bible in context at some point the context is going to lead to the Doctrines nicknamed Calvinism/Reformed.
    John 6:63, 65 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life....65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

    I Corinthians 4:7 "For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?"

    Born in the Spirit & word, granted by the Father. EE-TEOW




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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    I have not even registered any philosophical ideas, they have only some very primitive feelings about it, but they are unable to even define the term properly...
    Free will: the ability to choose right and wrong

    God's moral code determines what is right and wrong and by God's Prevenient grace all are given this code and taught what God expects. However human nature is basically selfish and concerned with personal desires of the flesh more than the things of God. Therefore they will most often chose evil unless by additional means of grace God calls them and changes the desires of their heart and teaches them the wisdom of following God's laws and will. Removing the thorns and rocks and chasing away the birds to prepare the heart soil for the Gospel seed.

    Then people feel a godly sorrow unto repentance and are able to "choose" God and confess from the heart faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior.

  12. #612
    Senior Member preacher4truth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_B View Post
    I know that lots of Calvary Chapel people are going to the Reformed faith, even with all of their speaking out against it. If you teach verse by verse and tell people to read the Bible in context at some point the context is going to lead to the Doctrines nicknamed Calvinism/Reformed.
    We have a Calvary Chapel family at the end of the cul de sac. I've tried to get him to listen to James White by mentioning his name, yet he isn't aware we are "calvinists." or even who White is.

    I heard and excerpt somewhere with Chuck Smith minimizing theology and doctrine. Then he quoted a few verses and commented on them, and, unknowingly, well, he just contradicted his former statement, LOL!!
    People are offended that God is God.

    Oh, my brethren! bold-hearted men are always called mean-spirited by cowards. - Charles Spurgeon

    I threw out the writings of Moses because he killed that Egyptian guy.

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    And joy can only apply to a saint.Happy among people of the world at times,but joy among the saints.

    Jesus said,I give you joy that no person takes away,for no matter how the world treats the saints,or their problems,that joy is always there,and they cannot lose it,for joy is not controlled by human emotion,but controlled by God.

    Happiness is controlled by people,so they can lose it temporarily at times,but joy is controlled by God,so they can never lose it for it cannot be turned off by people,as happiness can at times.

    That is why the Bible says the joy of the LORD is our strength,for it keeps us living for God,and loving people,and keeps our chin up,when adversity strikes from the world,and we have problems.

    Peace that passes all understanding,joy that no person takes away,comfort from the Spirit that we cannot lose,all controlled by God,which is why a person in the truth led by the Spirit,does not get down in the dumps like the world,despite problems,does not get a distraught,and confused mind,for their benefit to keep them upbeat is all controlled by God,and not them,so they cannot lose any of those attributes,for it is not a human emotion.

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    It always bugs me when people make words like theology, religion and doctrine like dirty words that shouldn't be mentioned.

    Folks have to be able to learn to discern from bad theology and false religions and doctrines and know that God provides true versions of each that Satan imitates and twists to lead people away from God instead of towards Him.

    I have observed two methods.

    1. A personable likeable cult leader with bad DOCTRINE and a false gospel.

    2. An abrasive, rude, hypocritical Pharisee with perfect doctrine.

    People accept the first and His false doctrines,or. Reject the second and His true doctrines.

    Either way, Satan wins another soul kept enslaved to lies and decpetions.
    Last edited by Ariel82; May 19th, 2017 at 06:40 PM.

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    Senior Member pottersclay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    I find it personally quit intimidating to put labels on what brand of Christianity I follow.
    I'm not educated in the field of theology, or any of that stuff (as you can tell). Lol.

    Knowing the lords thoughts and ways are higher than all of ours combined settles most matters for me. Trust is my main principle in faith. Trust in him and his word. To finish the work he has started in me as well as in all.
    Putting labels on our beliefs imo puts God in a box rather than defines what type of Christianity I hold to be true.

  16. #616
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    I do get prevenient grace. It's God lets men decide of their own free will that they want to be saved. No matter how you slice it, it's "we choose."

    And in that "we choose" comes "What if we want to unchoose?" And if you don't think that's a problem, you haven't been listening to the Arminian side. That's come up more than once by that side.

    Never heard of prevenient grace before the last thread. Now I see it as a fancy way of saying, "God lets go of his sovereignty to let man choose him."

    Now you're adding man's faith too.
    Calvinism was really difficult for me to understand. It took me months to get what they're saying. So if you don't get Arminianism it's understandable.

    We believe the same thing.......we're saved by Grace through Faith. It's how God that truth is applied where we differ. We still believe in God's Sovereignty. He sets the plan of salvation, we had nothing to do with it. The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were the ones that made the blueprint. When the two sides read the blueprints, there is something wrong with our eyesight, perception, whatever because we don't see things alike.

    We get to act on our faith as we're saved by grace through faith and you don't. I guess your faith comes afterwards because you have to be born again first. While I believe the gospel by faith and am born again. You believe that man is so depraved that he can't respond to God. I believe that man can respond to God even though he's depraved.

    And yes, God said by grace through faith. So yeah, it's my faith, not yours. God gives each one of us faith to believe, but it's our very own. That's how your faith is accounted as righteousness for you and not for me.

    So at the end of the day, do I love God and believe I'm saved by grace through faith? Do you? Yes, I believe we do, but God knows for sure. Is this something that should separate us? I believe that we can be saved in spite of what our doctrinal accuracies or errors are. It's truly how we live out our life that determines if we truly have faith. If the Holy Spirit is within us we will produce the fruits of the Spirit and we will walk in obedience. We cannot, but do the works of God and produce the fruit of righteousness.

    Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Labels are like name tags. Some people wear them and some get them placed on them.

    Personally I like to know what name folks slap on me.

  18. #618
    Senior Member maxwel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by pottersclay View Post
    I find it personally quit intimidating to put labels on what brand of Christianity I follow.
    I'm not educated in the field of theology, or any of that stuff (as you can tell). Lol.

    Knowing the lords thoughts and ways are higher than all of ours combined settles most matters for me. Trust is my main principle in faith. Trust in him and his word. To finish the work he has started in me as well as in all.
    Putting labels on our beliefs imo puts God in a box rather than defines what type of Christianity I hold to be true.
    Putting a label on your own beliefs doesn't affect God in any way whatsoever.
    It just makes it easier for OTHERS to understand your general beliefs.

    But either way, it's not really a big deal.

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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by preacher4truth View Post
    We have a Calvary Chapel family at the end of the cul de sac. I've tried to get him to listen to James White by mentioning his name, yet he isn't aware we are "calvinists." or even who White is.

    I heard and excerpt somewhere with Chuck Smith minimizing theology and doctrine. Then he quoted a few verses and commented on them, and, unknowingly, well, he just contradicted his former statement, LOL!!
    They always stubble over the election Scripture, my old Calvary pastor taught that we are died in sin and god has to bring us to life because dead people can do nothing, the he added but that doesn't mean you don't have been predestine or elect.
    Laish and preacher4truth like this.
    John 6:63, 65 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life....65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

    I Corinthians 4:7 "For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?"

    Born in the Spirit & word, granted by the Father. EE-TEOW




  20. #620
    Senior Member preacher4truth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lets Talk Free Choice

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_B View Post
    They always stubble over the election Scripture, my old Calvary pastor taught that we are died in sin and god has to bring us to life because dead people can do nothing, the he added but that doesn't mean you don't have been predestine or elect.
    Yeah, well, he had to overlook a lot of Scripture to add that denial. Why not just embrace all of Scripture instead?
    People are offended that God is God.

    Oh, my brethren! bold-hearted men are always called mean-spirited by cowards. - Charles Spurgeon

    I threw out the writings of Moses because he killed that Egyptian guy.

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