Lets Talk Free Choice

SovereignGrace · May 20, 2017

I guess Im where the old man is in this story.

In view of the doctrine of Calvinism, imagine the following conversation taking place.It was early Monday morning in a small rural area. Several men had gathered at the old country store drinking coffee and playing checkers, sitting around the wood stove. The young Calvinist preacher, who recently got his Doctor of Divinity degree, had just moved to his first local work. He, wanting to fit in, joined the group at the old store for coffee and conversation. Upon his arrival he tells many of the men he missed them at services yesterday. Some begin to make excuses why they did not come.The young preacher rebukes them and tells them they all should attend services each Sunday.

There is one older man, however, who begins to ask the preacher some questions. The old man asked, “Do you believe and teach the doctrine of Calvinism?” “Yes,” the preacher said, “I do.” The old man asked, “Irresistible grace is a part of that doctrine, is it not?” The young preacher said, “Yes, man is wholly depraved and cannot do anything to save himself; therefore, God must send His Spirit directly into the heart of the lost to cause them to believe; they can neither invite nor reject God’s grace. That’s from page _____ chapter _____ of our creed book,” said the preacher.The old man said, “According to your doctrine, preacher, I can’t do anything to save myself. I must wait for God’s grace to act upon me, and when it does, I cannot resist it.” “That’s right,” said the young preacher, “But you should show your gratitude to God by coming to services.”The old man then said, “Preacher, don’t you believe and teach the doctrine of limited atonement?” The preacher nodded and cited another long passage from his creed book. Then the old man said, “The Bible teaches that Christ died for all men in I John 2:2, Hebrews 2:9, and I Timothy 2:3-4.” “Well, yes,” said the young preacher, “that is what it says but that’s not what it means!”The old man said, “How do you know, young man, that I am not one of the elect?” “Well,” said the preacher, “I know a lot about election; our creed book says. . .” and he quoted yet another long passage. The old man said, “What if I am one of the elect?” The preacher said, “God bless you, you would be saved.”

“So, preacher, you believe and teach if a man is one of the elect he is saved, and if he is not he is lost, and the number is so fixed that it cannot be changed?” “That’s right,” said the preacher, “according to our creed book page____ and chapter ___.” “Now preacher, suppose I am one of the non-elect. What then?” “You would be lost,” said the preacher. “There would be nothing,” said the old man, “nothing I could do to be saved, even if I wanted to be saved?” “No,” said the preacher, “if you are not of the elect there is nothing I or anyone else could do to get you saved.” “And don’t you teach, preacher, that if I am of the elect I could do nothing to be lost?” “That’s right,” said the preacher. “We take the position that a Christian’s sins do not condemn him.”The old man said, “Let me see now, preacher, if I understand you. You believe in hereditary depravity.” “That is right,” said the preacher. “Every baby is born with sin inherited from his parents.”The old man said, “So you believe in unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, total hereditary depravity, and perseverance of the saints?” “That’s right,” said the preacher. “There are five main points of Calvinism and they are easy to remember if you just think of the word TULIP.”“Well,” said the old man, “I have learned a lot from our talk today.” “Good,” said the young preacher. “I thought you would because I have studied from our creed books for many years in school.”

The old man then said, “Let’s see now preacher. If I understand your doctrine of Calvinism, I am depraved, born a sinner, with a sinful nature and cannot help but sin. Next, I am either saved or lost from the foundation of the world, and there is nothing anyone can do to change the state of the lost or saved. Also, if I am of the elect Christ died for me, and if not, then He did not die for me. Then as a depraved sinner, I must wait for the irresistible grace of God to come upon me, and when it does, I can fight all I want but God will save me. And finally, if I ever get salvation I cannot lose it if I tried. Is that about it, preacher?” “Well, yes,” said the preacher. “I guess that is how a layman might say it!”The old man then said, “In view of your doctrine, preacher, I suggest that next Sunday you go fishing with me and stop wasting your time and mine preaching. If your doctrine is true, man is passive in salvation. He can do nothing. It is all up to God, and surely, preacher, God will do the right thing.”

This is nothing but ad hominem. We don't quote creed pages, but use God's word.

SovereignGrace · May 20, 2017

peacefulbeliever said:

Nope, that's not how its laid out in the scriptures.

He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Sissy, those who receive Him have been born of God. Those who were first, born of God, received Him. You are saying ppl receive Him and then are born of God and that's backwards.

Bingo! Seeing that not everybody who has ever lived has had faith[2 Thess. 3:2], we can see that faith is a gift of God.[John 1:29, Romans 12:3, Hebrews 12:2] That is why it never profited them who had no faith.

Roughsoul1991 · May 20, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

[h=1]2 Thessalonians 3:2New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]2 And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith.

This by no means supports unconditional election or in the context related to salvation. Paul, Silas, and Timothy was under great persecution and asked for prayers. So this verse is only implying these people have denied grace and remained in rebellion. [/FONT]
[h=1]John 1:29New International Version (NIV)[/h][h=3]John Testifies About Jesus[/h][FONT=&quot]29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world![/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Very true, I do not see how this relates to the debate?[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Romans 12:3-8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you. 4 For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your[a]faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead,[b] do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.
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[FONT=&quot]This scripture always gets taken out of context. In context Romans 12:3 is speaking on the various ways and capacities to serve as Christians. Not salvation.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[h=1]Hebrews 12New International Version (NIV)[/h][FONT=&quot]12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In context again we see how we perfect our faith. 1. resist sin 2. run with perseverance 3. Fixing our eyes 4. Remember Christ's sacrifice so we wont grow weary and lose heart.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Staying focused on Jesus will perfect our faith. [/FONT]

SovereignGrace · May 20, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

However, not everyone has faith, as it is a gift of God.

My bad...it was supposed to be John 6:29.

Yet, faith is a gift of God. None are saved w/o faith, as we are justified by faith. If everybody has faith, everybody is saved.

God is the Pioneer and Perfecter(Author and Finisher in KJV, but I prefer the NIV, NASB, ESV, CSB over the KJV myself) of our faith. If He authors is, He creates it.

Roughsoul1991 · May 20, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

John 6:29 supports free will saying the only work we must do is to have faith.

God created everything. Including what he allows us to use within our free will. Saving Faith is not a gift only given to some and not others. Faith is what we use in our free will to believe something unseen and to trust his Words.

The only way a person isnt saved is by willingly denying grace, not because they are chosen to go to hell.

Roughsoul1991 · May 20, 2017

Mark 13:22New International Version (NIV)

22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Maybe the elect isnt what yall are trying to make them out to be if even the elect can be deceived.

preacher4truth · May 20, 2017

SovereignGrace said:

They'll believe myths and stories as long as they support their straw men.

SovereignGrace · May 20, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

Uhhhhh, this is the work of God....not the work of man, that you believe upon the One He sent.

Also, if ppl have faith, they are saved.

We are justified by faith. It does not say we are justified by faith after we exercised it, either. That's adding to the text to support your pretext.

preacher4truth · May 20, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

The passage does nothing of the sort. It plainly says that it is the work of God. Ephesians 1:19 also supports this.

By a continuance of adding to the Word, and not seeing what it plainly says, which is contrary to the above, we arrive at false conclusions. One has to get past presuppositions to see clearly what the Scripture is really saying.

The work of faith there is a work of God, not man. That is as plain as day, it is from God, not man; John 1:13; Romans 9:16; 1 Peter 1:3 &c.

Now, one could do a lot of contorting if one desires to make it say what they want it to say, but that is up to the person. I for one will allow the Scripture to dictate to me what it is saying, not tradition, not erroneous presuppositions.

Man outside of Christ isn't free; John 8:35. The above is adding erroneous presuppositions to ones "theology" which then becomes a mere ideology not based upon Scripture.

Scripture is contrary to this. Over and again you've been shown your error, and remain on the same path against Scripture. Ephesians 1:19; Romans 12:3; Romans 10:17; Philippians 1:29; Acts 3:16 &c.

Back to erroneous presuppositions above...

Not really, all are already lost prior to hearing or even knowing God or the Gospel. No one goes to hell for rejecting Christ, they were already on their way there prior to this event.

Election isn't to hell ever in Scripture.

SovereignGrace · May 20, 2017

Roughsoul1991 said:

If, Brother, if.

It's like ppl using Hebrews 6:4-6 to say ppl can lose their salvation. But go down a little further...

Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation.[Hebrews 6:9]

I like the way John MacArthur put it.
"If you could lose your salvation, you would."

Grandpa · May 20, 2017

Adstar said:

Lets look and review one of the 5 pillars of calvinism called TULIP shall we:

"I" in "TULIP" stands for "Irresistible Grace."

"In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is he dependant upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended."

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So here we have the doctrine of Irresistible grace which proclaims that if the Holy Spirit acts upon us then we have no ability to resist His leading..

So if this doctrine is correct then the verse i quoted in Acts 7 must be uninspired and calvinists must seek to remove this verse from the Bible..

Acts 7: KJV
51"¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Remember The Holy Spirit is irresistible in calvanisim.. If people only hear the """outward general call to salvation""" then the Holy Spirit is not involved in that call.. So when a person who God has created to burn in hell ( according to calvinism ) hears the call he is only hearing the """outward general call to salvation""" only and the Holy Spirit is taking no part in that event.. According to calvinism when the Holy Spirit becomes involved then His leading is irresistible..

Therefore either Acts 7 verse 51 is correct or calvinism is correct... You can be assured i will place my Faith in the Bible not in the thoughts of a man john calvin..

Irresistible Grace.

If it were irresistible by everyone then everyone would be saved and that would be called UNIVERSALISM.

Like I said earlier, calvinism is not universalism.

Irresistible Grace, in the calvinistic sense, means the elect cannot resist.

Which was already explained and highlighted in your own post.

Adstar · May 20, 2017

valiant said:

So now a calvinist is stating that these people can and do resist the Holy Spirt and therefore the leading of The Holy Spirit is resistible. ( Which has been my belief for many years).. Therefore the calvinistic doctrine of irresponsible grace is False. Because as you say these people who have resisted the Holy Spirit. Oh and by the way if you do not believe in the doctrine of the irresistible nature of the Holy Spirit then you are not a true calvinist. Or are you going to claim that you can be a 4 pillar calvinist?

preacher4truth · May 20, 2017

preacher4truth said:

Got really, really quiet around here on this one. ^^^

Wonder why? The Scriptures above are plain, and no one as far as I can tell has even attempted to contort them. Yet.

People genuinely want to have a "free will?" Seriously?

Not my will, but your will be done... Luke 22:42, and, that is what is happening in the above passages. It is how it happens as well.

Grandpa · May 20, 2017

Its quite emotionally charged to think that God elects some and not others.

But where is our sense of 'wrong doing' on Gods part when we read that God chose Jacob over Esau?
Or Abel over Cain?
Or Israel over the Amorites?
Or Noah over the rest of the planet?

Does God not have the right to choose? Or do you think He chooses based on merit?

Its not 'fair' if God doesn't choose us based on merit.

1 Corinthians 1:26-29
[FONT=&quot]26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.[/FONT]

graceNpeace · May 20, 2017

Just to say, the definition of irresistible grace as defined by Calvinists themselves is that when it is applied to an individual it is irresistible, it was never meant to mean that no one can resist this grace.
The point is that in Calvinist doctrine irresistible grace is never applied to everyone - only God's elect.

Just saying...

Adstar · May 20, 2017

sevenseas said:

Wowww that looks so decadent... Do not tempt me foul seductress.. LOL

Grandpa · May 20, 2017

graceNpeace said:

Roger that.

Those that are saved cannot fathom how someone would not choose the way of Salvation.

John 6:67-69
[FONT=&quot]67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.[/FONT]

Adstar · May 20, 2017

kaylagrl said:

Nothing wrong with starting this thread.. You have simply allowed them to show the ugly side of calvinism.. What it does to the people that hold it as truth.. They get real nasty very quicky if you do not conform to their doctrine..

notmyown · May 20, 2017

Grandpa said:

do you think people (Americans

) get "fair" confused with God being just?

anyhoo.... yesterday was our son's birthday and his college graduation. you might remember what he went through with the brain bleed when he was 19, which set him back quite a bit, so he graduated on his 29th b'day.

but he graduated!
now i'm going to go get things ready for tomorrow's "combination celebration" as one of our daughters has dubbed it. lol

thank God for His mercy, and that we don't get His justice.

preacher4truth · May 20, 2017

Grandpa said:

That right there.

And bro, the passage you quoted is all about election. Paul shows over and again being chosen/elect.

This is why I say election is the milk of the Word, and why so many today are malnourished spiritually speaking because they had not received that necessary milk as babes in Christ.

Now, to prove my point that election is milk, consider this from the same epistle:

But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, - 1 Corinthians 3:1-2

Up to this point Paul has limited their spiritual diet to milk, not meat, thus 1 Corinthians 1:25-31 falls under this distinction.

A cursory examination of the word "infants" (nēpios) may will do the trick to get the point across to some who fall under the category. Perhaps it will offend, but, even the Corinthians could take the heat from Paul. Very few today can handle it, they are too busy looking for something to be offended over, they are "infants" as well.

Allow me to finish the context out from what Grandpa shared with us:

And because of him* you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord." - 1 Corinthians 1:30-31

(*hint: the "because of him" phrase? It is tied to the fact He did the electing)

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