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Thread: can some people give me their....

  1. #1
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    Default can some people give me their....

    definitions

    i dont know much about branches or denominations

    whats protestant
    whats evangelical
    whats charasmatic


    i just recently learned a bit about "calvinists"
    i understand catholics
    and baptists
    a bit about mormans
    and jehova witnesses

    but have no clue about the first 3 i listed

    if anyone proclaims any of these titles

    can you tell me why?

    or what they mean?

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    Senior Member Ugly's Avatar
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    Default Re: can some people give me their....

    Protestant is basically non-Catholic. I believe also non-orthodox.
    Charismatics, such as Pentecostals, are the tongue talking, dancing in the isles, 'drunk in the spirit' types. I came out of this mess of beliefs years ago.

    Calvanists and Armenians are just opposing theological views. Something man made that people argue over, like was criticized in the bible for people doing it back then.

    I claim protestant, as that reflects my overall views and rejection of catholic and orthodox teachings. Beyond that i have no label other than Christian. As stated i was once Pentecostal but found that belief system very much based on emotion and feelings. Heavy in guilt and easily misguided as things other than the bible are often lauded as 'new moves of God', no matter the bibles take. Typically you are constantly chasing the feeling of the 'Holy Spirit' and speaking in tongues in a manner the bibles clearly speaks against. Also many fall into traps such as Word of Faith/prosperity gospel teachings. These are disguised new age teachings.

    I'm sure others can give more specifics, but that's a general overview.
    Give me a new voice
    Give me a heart for repentance and make it stay
    Cause I've idolized my words
    It's all my fault
    But it's comfortable
    ~Poured Out, Rival Choir~

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    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: can some people give me their....

    A protestant protests the bogus authority Rome imposes through the heretical institution of Roman Catholicism, which falsely positioned itself as the only valid expression of God's church in the world for centuries. An evangelist is simply a messenger carrying the good news of God's eternal Word into the world


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    Default Re: can some people give me their....

    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    definitions

    i dont know much about branches or denominations

    whats protestant
    whats evangelical
    whats charasmatic


    i just recently learned a bit about "calvinists"
    i understand catholics
    and baptists
    a bit about mormans
    and jehova witnesses

    but have no clue about the first 3 i listed

    if anyone proclaims any of these titles

    can you tell me why?

    or what they mean?
    Protestants i remember from art History, its a denomination that was produced during the time of the reformation and catholic protestant wars. from what i remember certain christians took issue with catholic practices, and reformed thier beliefs and practices that were different from catholicism. such as the imagery, and sacred objects, confession style.

    not a wealth of knowledge in me regarding denominations but i do remember studying the catholic protestant wars in college. hope this is helpful in some measure to you. God bless
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    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: can some people give me their....

    The protest from Martin Luther originally took the form of 95 theses which concerned blatant abuses of the Roman Catholic church, such as the selling of indulgences.

    The 95 Theses http://www.luther.de/en/95thesen.html

    Out of love for the truth and from desire to elucidate it, the Reverend Father Martin Luther, Master of Arts and Sacred Theology, and ordinary lecturer therein at Wittenberg, intends to defend the following statements and to dispute on them in that place. Therefore he asks that those who cannot be present and dispute with him orally shall do so in their absence by letter. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, Amen.

    When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, ``Repent'' (Mt 4:17), he willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.

    This word cannot be understood as referring to the sacrament of penance, that is, confession and satisfaction, as administered by the clergy.

    Yet it does not mean solely inner repentance; such inner repentance is worthless unless it produces various outward mortification of the flesh.

    The penalty of sin remains as long as the hatred of self (that is, true inner repentance), namely till our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

    The pope neither desires nor is able to remit any penalties except those imposed by his own authority or that of the canons.

    The pope cannot remit any guilt, except by declaring and showing that it has been remitted by God; or, to be sure, by remitting guilt in cases reserved to his judgment. If his right to grant remission in these cases were disregarded, the guilt would certainly remain unforgiven.

    God remits guilt to no one unless at the same time he humbles him in all things and makes him submissive to the vicar, the priest.

    The penitential canons are imposed only on the living, and, according to the canons themselves, nothing should be imposed on the dying.

    Therefore the Holy Spirit through the pope is kind to us insofar as the pope in his decrees always makes exception of the article of death and of necessity.

    Those priests act ignorantly and wickedly who, in the case of the dying, reserve canonical penalties for purgatory.

    Those tares of changing the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory were evidently sown while the bishops slept (Mt 13:25).

    In former times canonical penalties were imposed, not after, but before absolution, as tests of true contrition.

    The dying are freed by death from all penalties, are already dead as far as the canon laws are concerned, and have a right to be released from them.

    Imperfect piety or love on the part of the dying person necessarily brings with it great fear; and the smaller the love, the greater the fear.

    This fear or horror is sufficient in itself, to say nothing of other things, to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror of despair.

    Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ the same as despair, fear, and assurance of salvation.

    It seems as though for the souls in purgatory fear should necessarily decrease and love increase.

    Furthermore, it does not seem proved, either by reason or by Scripture, that souls in purgatory are outside the state of merit, that is, unable to grow in love.

    Nor does it seem proved that souls in purgatory, at least not all of them, are certain and assured of their own salvation, even if we ourselves may be entirely certain of it.

    Therefore the pope, when he uses the words ``plenary remission of all penalties,'' does not actually mean ``all penalties,'' but only those imposed by himself.

    Thus those indulgence preachers are in error who say that a man is absolved from every penalty and saved by papal indulgences.

    As a matter of fact, the pope remits to souls in purgatory no penalty which, according to canon law, they should have paid in this life.

    If remission of all penalties whatsoever could be granted to anyone at all, certainly it would be granted only to the most perfect, that is, to very few.

    For this reason most people are necessarily deceived by that indiscriminate and high-sounding promise of release from penalty.

    That power which the pope has in general over purgatory corresponds to the power which any bishop or curate has in a particular way in his own diocese and parish.

    The pope does very well when he grants remission to souls in purgatory, not by the power of the keys, which he does not have, but by way of intercession for them.

    They preach only human doctrines who say that as soon as the money clinks into the money chest, the soul flies out of purgatory.

    It is certain that when money clinks in the money chest, greed and avarice can be increased; but when the church intercedes, the result is in the hands of God alone.

    Who knows whether all souls in purgatory wish to be redeemed, since we have exceptions in St. Severinus and St. Paschal, as related in a legend.

    No one is sure of the integrity of his own contrition, much less of having received plenary remission.

    The man who actually buys indulgences is as rare as he who is really penitent; indeed, he is exceedingly rare.

    Those who believe that they can be certain of their salvation because they have indulgence letters will be eternally damned, together with their teachers.

    Men must especially be on guard against those who say that the pope's pardons are that inestimable gift of God by which man is reconciled to him.

    For the graces of indulgences are concerned only with the penalties of sacramental satisfaction established by man.

    They who teach that contrition is not necessary on the part of those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to buy confessional privileges preach unchristian doctrine.

    Any truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without indulgence letters.

    Any true Christian, whether living or dead, participates in all the blessings of Christ and the church; and this is granted him by God, even without indulgence letters.

    Nevertheless, papal remission and blessing are by no means to be disregarded, for they are, as I have said (Thesis 6), the proclamation of the divine remission.

    It is very difficult, even for the most learned theologians, at one and the same time to commend to the people the bounty of indulgences and the need of true contrition.

    A Christian who is truly contrite seeks and loves to pay penalties for his sins; the bounty of indulgences, however, relaxes penalties and causes men to hate them -- at least it furnishes occasion for hating them.

    Papal indulgences must be preached with caution, lest people erroneously think that they are preferable to other good works of love.

    Christians are to be taught that the pope does not intend that the buying of indulgences should in any way be compared with works of mercy.

    Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the needy does a better deed than he who buys indulgences.

    Because love grows by works of love, man thereby becomes better. Man does not, however, become better by means of indulgences but is merely freed from penalties.

    Christians are to be taught that he who sees a needy man and passes him by, yet gives his money for indulgences, does not buy papal indulgences but God's wrath.

    Christians are to be taught that, unless they have more than they need, they must reserve enough for their family needs and by no means squander it on indulgences.

    Christians are to be taught that they buying of indulgences is a matter of free choice, not commanded.

    Christians are to be taught that the pope, in granting indulgences, needs and thus desires their devout prayer more than their money.

    Christians are to be taught that papal indulgences are useful only if they do not put their trust in them, but very harmful if they lose their fear of God because of them.

    Christians are to be taught that if the pope knew the exactions of the indulgence preachers, he would rather that the basilica of St. Peter were burned to ashes than built up with the skin, flesh, and bones of his sheep.

    Christians are to be taught that the pope would and should wish to give of his own money, even though he had to sell the basilica of St. Peter, to many of those from whom certain hawkers of indulgences cajole money.

    It is vain to trust in salvation by indulgence letters, even though the indulgence commissary, or even the pope, were to offer his soul as security.

    They are the enemies of Christ and the pope who forbid altogether the preaching of the Word of God in some churches in order that indulgences may be preached in others.

    Injury is done to the Word of God when, in the same sermon, an equal or larger amount of time is devoted to indulgences than to the Word.

    It is certainly the pope's sentiment that if indulgences, which are a very insignificant thing, are celebrated with one bell, one procession, and one ceremony, then the gospel, which is the very greatest thing, should be preached with a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.

    The true treasures of the church, out of which the pope distributes indulgences, are not sufficiently discussed or known among the people of Christ.

    That indulgences are not temporal treasures is certainly clear, for many indulgence sellers do not distribute them freely but only gather them.

    Nor are they the merits of Christ and the saints, for, even without the pope, the latter always work grace for the inner man, and the cross, death, and hell for the outer man.

    St. Lawrence said that the poor of the church were the treasures of the church, but he spoke according to the usage of the word in his own time.

    Without want of consideration we say that the keys of the church, given by the merits of Christ, are that treasure.

    For it is clear that the pope's power is of itself sufficient for the remission of penalties and cases reserved by himself.

    The true treasure of the church is the most holy gospel of the glory and grace of God.

    But this treasure is naturally most odious, for it makes the first to be last (Mt. 20:16).

    On the other hand, the treasure of indulgences is naturally most acceptable, for it makes the last to be first.

    Therefore the treasures of the gospel are nets with which one formerly fished for men of wealth.

    The treasures of indulgences are nets with which one now fishes for the wealth of men.

    The indulgences which the demagogues acclaim as the greatest graces are actually understood to be such only insofar as they promote gain.

    They are nevertheless in truth the most insignificant graces when compared with the grace of God and the piety of the cross.

    Bishops and curates are bound to admit the commissaries of papal indulgences with all reverence.

    But they are much more bound to strain their eyes and ears lest these men preach their own dreams instead of what the pope has commissioned.

    Let him who speaks against the truth concerning papal indulgences be anathema and accursed.

    But let him who guards against the lust and license of the indulgence preachers be blessed.

    Just as the pope justly thunders against those who by any means whatever contrive harm to the sale of indulgences.

    Much more does he intend to thunder against those who use indulgences as a pretext to contrive harm to holy love and truth.

    To consider papal indulgences so great that they could absolve a man even if he had done the impossible and had violated the mother of God is madness.

    We say on the contrary that papal indulgences cannot remove the very least of venial sins as far as guilt is concerned.

    To say that even St. Peter if he were now pope, could not grant greater graces is blasphemy against St. Peter and the pope.

    We say on the contrary that even the present pope, or any pope whatsoever, has greater graces at his disposal, that is, the gospel, spiritual powers, gifts of healing, etc., as it is written. (1 Co 12[:28])

    To say that the cross emblazoned with the papal coat of arms, and set up by the indulgence preachers is equal in worth to the cross of Christ is blasphemy.

    The bishops, curates, and theologians who permit such talk to be spread among the people will have to answer for this.

    This unbridled preaching of indulgences makes it difficult even for learned men to rescue the reverence which is due the pope from slander or from the shrewd questions of the laity.

    Such as: ``Why does not the pope empty purgatory for the sake of holy love and the dire need of the souls that are there if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a church?'' The former reason would be most just; the latter is most trivial.

    Again, ``Why are funeral and anniversary masses for the dead continued and why does he not return or permit the withdrawal of the endowments founded for them, since it is wrong to pray for the redeemed?''

    Again, ``What is this new piety of God and the pope that for a consideration of money they permit a man who is impious and their enemy to buy out of purgatory the pious soul of a friend of God and do not rather, beca use of the need of that pious and beloved soul, free it for pure love's sake?''

    Again, ``Why are the penitential canons, long since abrogated and dead in actual fact and through disuse, now satisfied by the granting of indulgences as though they were still alive and in force?''

    Again, ``Why does not the pope, whose wealth is today greater than the wealth of the richest Crassus, build this one basilica of St. Peter with his own money rather than with the money of poor believers?''

    Again, ``What does the pope remit or grant to those who by perfect contrition already have a right to full remission and blessings?''

    Again, ``What greater blessing could come to the church than if the pope were to bestow these remissions and blessings on every believer a hundred times a day, as he now does but once?''

    "Since the pope seeks the salvation of souls rather than money by his indulgences, why does he suspend the indulgences and pardons previously granted when they have equal efficacy?''

    To repress these very sharp arguments of the laity by force alone, and not to resolve them by giving reasons, is to expose the church and the pope to the ridicule of their enemies and to make Christians unhappy.

    If, therefore, indulgences were preached according to the spirit and intention of the pope, all these doubts would be readily resolved. Indeed, they would not exist.

    Away, then, with all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, ``Peace, peace,'' and there is no peace! (Jer 6:14)

    Blessed be all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, ``Cross, cross,'' and there is no cross!

    Christians should be exhorted to be diligent in following Christ, their Head, through penalties, death and hell.

    And thus be confident of entering into heaven through many tribulations rather than through the false security of peace (Acts 14:22).
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    Member 3putter's Avatar
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    Default Re: can some people give me their....

    I have thought about Denominations often also. I did not think Protestant was a Denomination. I thought it was a Movement. The Evangelical one was the one that caused me to start thinking about these things when it became popular to use to define Christians several years ago. I still do not understand why there is a difference between Evangelicals and Christians though.

    I agree with the person who said they have no label other than Christian. I hope someone can explain the need for all of these different labels also.
    Matthew 4:17) From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

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    Default Re: can some people give me their....

    well thank you guys for that

    i just hear the terms get tossed around alot


    what do you call someone who just believes the Bible is literal

    like every word is entirely true

    if hyperbole is being used its obvious
    but still true


    like if your eye causes you to sin
    pluck it out since its better to go to heaven with one eye
    than hell with two

    now Jesus aint sayin to pluck out your eye.... unless that truely is what it would take

    in which case its still true

    id rather missing an eye than burning in hellfire
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    Default Re: can some people give me their....

    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    well thank you guys for that

    i just hear the terms get tossed around alot


    what do you call someone who just believes the Bible is literal

    like every word is entirely true

    if hyperbole is being used its obvious
    but still true


    like if your eye causes you to sin
    pluck it out since its better to go to heaven with one eye
    than hell with two

    now Jesus aint sayin to pluck out your eye.... unless that truely is what it would take

    in which case its still true

    id rather missing an eye than burning in hellfire
    too long winded


    what do you call someone who believes every word in the Holy Bible and it is the preserved inspired Word of God
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    Default Re: can some people give me their....

    always feel offended when someone calls me any title

    other than christian
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    Senior Member Ugly's Avatar
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    Default Re: can some people give me their....

    Quote Originally Posted by 3putter View Post
    I have thought about Denominations often also. I did not think Protestant was a Denomination. I thought it was a Movement.
    Catholics and Orthodox may see Protestants as a denomination. Just as some Christians may see Catholics as a denomination.


    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    what do you call someone who just believes the Bible is literal

    like every word is entirely true

    if hyperbole is being used its obvious
    but still true
    Having some serious deja vu.
    Anyways, that's essentially what i believe. Hence my refusal of any of these titles. But the problem is most people will make the same claim, even those using these titles.
    But i just tell people i'm a Christian, whether or not i fall under any of these terms i do not know, nor do i care. I do my best to have a clear, reasonable and balanced understanding of God and the bible. The end. I only actively speak against things i see as being specifically not Christian, or genuinely dangerous beliefs. But the OSAS, pre-mid-post trib and all the other arguments, i believe what i believe, i let others believe what they want. Makes things more peaceful when you don't feel a need to force everyone into your version of Christianity.
    Give me a new voice
    Give me a heart for repentance and make it stay
    Cause I've idolized my words
    It's all my fault
    But it's comfortable
    ~Poured Out, Rival Choir~

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    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: can some people give me their....

    Some people are religious but lost. Jesus said we must be born again.

    People can call themselves Christian, when maybe all they do is go to church
    and listen to a sermon once a week. They may not even be saved, just warming
    a seat and thinking they are good enough to warrant entry into "heaven" by
    their works, which are as filthy rags, for it is faith that pleases God, and He
    desires those who worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, and that means through
    accepting the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ, Who poured out His life's blood
    on the cross due to His great love for us, in order to pay the wages of sin, which
    is death. Jesus is Truth, and the only way to the Father. He is the light and life
    of men. Have you had a personal encounter with the Living Word of God?

    An evangelist is a messenger, same root as angels, who are messengers of God.
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    Member 3putter's Avatar
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    Default Re: can some people give me their....

    Oh, ok. If Protestant is a Denomination, then what is the proper name for the different groups of people that are normally called Denominations? Baptist, Methodist, Church of Christ and such? Are they sub-Denominations? Or are they not all Protestant?
    Matthew 4:17) From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

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    Default Re: can some people give me their....

    No idea on any of them. Hard to see in today's world the historical underpinnings of any of the Protestant sects. The only thing I could say with any kind of certainty is Protestants are in opposition to the Roman Catholic Church, and by some sort of extension the Eastern Orthodox Church, although Orthodox broke away from Rome earlier than did what became Protestantism.

    Eh...labels. Silly things.
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    Default Re: can some people give me their....

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    Some people are religious but lost. Jesus said we must be born again.

    People can call themselves Christian, when maybe all they do is go to church
    and listen to a sermon once a week. They may not even be saved, just warming
    a seat and thinking they are good enough to warrant entry into "heaven" by
    their works, which are as filthy rags, for it is faith that pleases God, and He
    desires those who worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, and that means through
    accepting the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ, Who poured out His life's blood
    on the cross due to His great love for us, in order to pay the wages of sin, which
    is death. Jesus is Truth, and the only way to the Father. He is the light and life
    of men. Have you had a personal encounter with the Living Word of God?

    An evangelist is a messenger, same root as angels, who are messengers of God.
    So...with the seat warmers, would it be accurate to say there is a denomination called "Churchianity"?
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    Default Re: can some people give me their....

    Quote Originally Posted by 3putter View Post
    Oh, ok. If Protestant is a Denomination, then what is the proper name for the different groups of people that are normally called Denominations? Baptist, Methodist, Church of Christ and such? Are they sub-Denominations? Or are they not all Protestant?
    Did someone say that Protestant is a denomination? It is a means of distinguishing oneself from the heretical institution known as the Roman Catholic church, which, many people assume, and Catholics actually believed, because it was taught, that they were the only "real" Christians. Catholicism teaches a boat load of heresies that are quite disturbing to many who accept the Truth through Jesus Christ our Lord, Who is the cornerstone of our faith, and the church... not some man Jesus referred to as Satan (Peter).


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    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: can some people give me their....

    Quote Originally Posted by Yahweh_is_gracious View Post
    So...with the seat warmers, would it be accurate to say there is a denomination called "Churchianity"?
    I hear that word a lot, actually... but only God knows the heart


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    Default Re: can some people give me their....

    They said Protestant could be considered a Denomination by Catholics and others I think. I just thought that there was Protestant and Catholic, and that Denominations were divisions of teachings in the Protestant Movement. I do not know anything about Orthodox Christians, I thought Orthodox referred to the Jewish religion.
    Matthew 4:17) From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

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    Default Re: can some people give me their....

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    The protest from Martin Luther originally took the form of 95 theses which concerned blatant abuses of the Roman Catholic church, such as the selling of indulgences.

    The 95 Theses http://www.luther.de/en/95thesen.html

    Out of love for the truth and from desire to elucidate it, the Reverend Father Martin Luther, Master of Arts and Sacred Theology, and ordinary lecturer therein at Wittenberg, intends to defend the following statements and to dispute on them in that place. Therefore he asks that those who cannot be present and dispute with him orally shall do so in their absence by letter. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, Amen.

    When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, ``Repent'' (Mt 4:17), he willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.

    This word cannot be understood as referring to the sacrament of penance, that is, confession and satisfaction, as administered by the clergy.

    Yet it does not mean solely inner repentance; such inner repentance is worthless unless it produces various outward mortification of the flesh.

    The penalty of sin remains as long as the hatred of self (that is, true inner repentance), namely till our entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

    The pope neither desires nor is able to remit any penalties except those imposed by his own authority or that of the canons.

    The pope cannot remit any guilt, except by declaring and showing that it has been remitted by God; or, to be sure, by remitting guilt in cases reserved to his judgment. If his right to grant remission in these cases were disregarded, the guilt would certainly remain unforgiven.

    God remits guilt to no one unless at the same time he humbles him in all things and makes him submissive to the vicar, the priest.

    The penitential canons are imposed only on the living, and, according to the canons themselves, nothing should be imposed on the dying.

    Therefore the Holy Spirit through the pope is kind to us insofar as the pope in his decrees always makes exception of the article of death and of necessity.

    Those priests act ignorantly and wickedly who, in the case of the dying, reserve canonical penalties for purgatory.

    Those tares of changing the canonical penalty to the penalty of purgatory were evidently sown while the bishops slept (Mt 13:25).

    In former times canonical penalties were imposed, not after, but before absolution, as tests of true contrition.

    The dying are freed by death from all penalties, are already dead as far as the canon laws are concerned, and have a right to be released from them.

    Imperfect piety or love on the part of the dying person necessarily brings with it great fear; and the smaller the love, the greater the fear.

    This fear or horror is sufficient in itself, to say nothing of other things, to constitute the penalty of purgatory, since it is very near to the horror of despair.

    Hell, purgatory, and heaven seem to differ the same as despair, fear, and assurance of salvation.

    It seems as though for the souls in purgatory fear should necessarily decrease and love increase.

    Furthermore, it does not seem proved, either by reason or by Scripture, that souls in purgatory are outside the state of merit, that is, unable to grow in love.

    Nor does it seem proved that souls in purgatory, at least not all of them, are certain and assured of their own salvation, even if we ourselves may be entirely certain of it.

    Therefore the pope, when he uses the words ``plenary remission of all penalties,'' does not actually mean ``all penalties,'' but only those imposed by himself.

    Thus those indulgence preachers are in error who say that a man is absolved from every penalty and saved by papal indulgences.

    As a matter of fact, the pope remits to souls in purgatory no penalty which, according to canon law, they should have paid in this life.

    If remission of all penalties whatsoever could be granted to anyone at all, certainly it would be granted only to the most perfect, that is, to very few.

    For this reason most people are necessarily deceived by that indiscriminate and high-sounding promise of release from penalty.

    That power which the pope has in general over purgatory corresponds to the power which any bishop or curate has in a particular way in his own diocese and parish.

    The pope does very well when he grants remission to souls in purgatory, not by the power of the keys, which he does not have, but by way of intercession for them.

    They preach only human doctrines who say that as soon as the money clinks into the money chest, the soul flies out of purgatory.

    It is certain that when money clinks in the money chest, greed and avarice can be increased; but when the church intercedes, the result is in the hands of God alone.

    Who knows whether all souls in purgatory wish to be redeemed, since we have exceptions in St. Severinus and St. Paschal, as related in a legend.

    No one is sure of the integrity of his own contrition, much less of having received plenary remission.

    The man who actually buys indulgences is as rare as he who is really penitent; indeed, he is exceedingly rare.

    Those who believe that they can be certain of their salvation because they have indulgence letters will be eternally damned, together with their teachers.

    Men must especially be on guard against those who say that the pope's pardons are that inestimable gift of God by which man is reconciled to him.

    For the graces of indulgences are concerned only with the penalties of sacramental satisfaction established by man.

    They who teach that contrition is not necessary on the part of those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to buy confessional privileges preach unchristian doctrine.

    Any truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without indulgence letters.

    Any true Christian, whether living or dead, participates in all the blessings of Christ and the church; and this is granted him by God, even without indulgence letters.

    Nevertheless, papal remission and blessing are by no means to be disregarded, for they are, as I have said (Thesis 6), the proclamation of the divine remission.

    It is very difficult, even for the most learned theologians, at one and the same time to commend to the people the bounty of indulgences and the need of true contrition.

    A Christian who is truly contrite seeks and loves to pay penalties for his sins; the bounty of indulgences, however, relaxes penalties and causes men to hate them -- at least it furnishes occasion for hating them.

    Papal indulgences must be preached with caution, lest people erroneously think that they are preferable to other good works of love.

    Christians are to be taught that the pope does not intend that the buying of indulgences should in any way be compared with works of mercy.

    Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the needy does a better deed than he who buys indulgences.

    Because love grows by works of love, man thereby becomes better. Man does not, however, become better by means of indulgences but is merely freed from penalties.

    Christians are to be taught that he who sees a needy man and passes him by, yet gives his money for indulgences, does not buy papal indulgences but God's wrath.

    Christians are to be taught that, unless they have more than they need, they must reserve enough for their family needs and by no means squander it on indulgences.

    Christians are to be taught that they buying of indulgences is a matter of free choice, not commanded.

    Christians are to be taught that the pope, in granting indulgences, needs and thus desires their devout prayer more than their money.

    Christians are to be taught that papal indulgences are useful only if they do not put their trust in them, but very harmful if they lose their fear of God because of them.

    Christians are to be taught that if the pope knew the exactions of the indulgence preachers, he would rather that the basilica of St. Peter were burned to ashes than built up with the skin, flesh, and bones of his sheep.

    Christians are to be taught that the pope would and should wish to give of his own money, even though he had to sell the basilica of St. Peter, to many of those from whom certain hawkers of indulgences cajole money.

    It is vain to trust in salvation by indulgence letters, even though the indulgence commissary, or even the pope, were to offer his soul as security.

    They are the enemies of Christ and the pope who forbid altogether the preaching of the Word of God in some churches in order that indulgences may be preached in others.

    Injury is done to the Word of God when, in the same sermon, an equal or larger amount of time is devoted to indulgences than to the Word.

    It is certainly the pope's sentiment that if indulgences, which are a very insignificant thing, are celebrated with one bell, one procession, and one ceremony, then the gospel, which is the very greatest thing, should be preached with a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.

    The true treasures of the church, out of which the pope distributes indulgences, are not sufficiently discussed or known among the people of Christ.

    That indulgences are not temporal treasures is certainly clear, for many indulgence sellers do not distribute them freely but only gather them.

    Nor are they the merits of Christ and the saints, for, even without the pope, the latter always work grace for the inner man, and the cross, death, and hell for the outer man.

    St. Lawrence said that the poor of the church were the treasures of the church, but he spoke according to the usage of the word in his own time.

    Without want of consideration we say that the keys of the church, given by the merits of Christ, are that treasure.

    For it is clear that the pope's power is of itself sufficient for the remission of penalties and cases reserved by himself.

    The true treasure of the church is the most holy gospel of the glory and grace of God.

    But this treasure is naturally most odious, for it makes the first to be last (Mt. 20:16).

    On the other hand, the treasure of indulgences is naturally most acceptable, for it makes the last to be first.

    Therefore the treasures of the gospel are nets with which one formerly fished for men of wealth.

    The treasures of indulgences are nets with which one now fishes for the wealth of men.

    The indulgences which the demagogues acclaim as the greatest graces are actually understood to be such only insofar as they promote gain.

    They are nevertheless in truth the most insignificant graces when compared with the grace of God and the piety of the cross.

    Bishops and curates are bound to admit the commissaries of papal indulgences with all reverence.

    But they are much more bound to strain their eyes and ears lest these men preach their own dreams instead of what the pope has commissioned.

    Let him who speaks against the truth concerning papal indulgences be anathema and accursed.

    But let him who guards against the lust and license of the indulgence preachers be blessed.

    Just as the pope justly thunders against those who by any means whatever contrive harm to the sale of indulgences.

    Much more does he intend to thunder against those who use indulgences as a pretext to contrive harm to holy love and truth.

    To consider papal indulgences so great that they could absolve a man even if he had done the impossible and had violated the mother of God is madness.

    We say on the contrary that papal indulgences cannot remove the very least of venial sins as far as guilt is concerned.

    To say that even St. Peter if he were now pope, could not grant greater graces is blasphemy against St. Peter and the pope.

    We say on the contrary that even the present pope, or any pope whatsoever, has greater graces at his disposal, that is, the gospel, spiritual powers, gifts of healing, etc., as it is written. (1 Co 12[:28])

    To say that the cross emblazoned with the papal coat of arms, and set up by the indulgence preachers is equal in worth to the cross of Christ is blasphemy.

    The bishops, curates, and theologians who permit such talk to be spread among the people will have to answer for this.

    This unbridled preaching of indulgences makes it difficult even for learned men to rescue the reverence which is due the pope from slander or from the shrewd questions of the laity.

    Such as: ``Why does not the pope empty purgatory for the sake of holy love and the dire need of the souls that are there if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a church?'' The former reason would be most just; the latter is most trivial.

    Again, ``Why are funeral and anniversary masses for the dead continued and why does he not return or permit the withdrawal of the endowments founded for them, since it is wrong to pray for the redeemed?''

    Again, ``What is this new piety of God and the pope that for a consideration of money they permit a man who is impious and their enemy to buy out of purgatory the pious soul of a friend of God and do not rather, beca use of the need of that pious and beloved soul, free it for pure love's sake?''

    Again, ``Why are the penitential canons, long since abrogated and dead in actual fact and through disuse, now satisfied by the granting of indulgences as though they were still alive and in force?''

    Again, ``Why does not the pope, whose wealth is today greater than the wealth of the richest Crassus, build this one basilica of St. Peter with his own money rather than with the money of poor believers?''

    Again, ``What does the pope remit or grant to those who by perfect contrition already have a right to full remission and blessings?''

    Again, ``What greater blessing could come to the church than if the pope were to bestow these remissions and blessings on every believer a hundred times a day, as he now does but once?''

    "Since the pope seeks the salvation of souls rather than money by his indulgences, why does he suspend the indulgences and pardons previously granted when they have equal efficacy?''

    To repress these very sharp arguments of the laity by force alone, and not to resolve them by giving reasons, is to expose the church and the pope to the ridicule of their enemies and to make Christians unhappy.

    If, therefore, indulgences were preached according to the spirit and intention of the pope, all these doubts would be readily resolved. Indeed, they would not exist.

    Away, then, with all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, ``Peace, peace,'' and there is no peace! (Jer 6:14)

    Blessed be all those prophets who say to the people of Christ, ``Cross, cross,'' and there is no cross!

    Christians should be exhorted to be diligent in following Christ, their Head, through penalties, death and hell.

    And thus be confident of entering into heaven through many tribulations rather than through the false security of peace (Acts 14:22).
    Hurts my soul to read any of Luther's writings. He would be turning in his grave if he knew what has become of the lutheran church (atleast here in Finland).
    Magenta and Laish like this.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: can some people give me their....

    Quote Originally Posted by Issachar92 View Post
    Hurts my soul to read any of Luther's writings. He would be turning in his grave if he knew what has become of the lutheran church (atleast here in Finland).
    Hello Issachar, I hope you are well today Yes, there are grievous errors in some churches Lutherans and some others did not move very far away from Catholicism at all, and if you go to a Lutheran church, you would maybe not even know you were not in a Catholic church with the mass and vestments and liturgy and incense etc all mimicking the other. We have the United church here which actually has ministers who are agnostic and atheist, so...


    Embrace the Grace and Rejoice in His Everlasting Mercy and Love

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    Senior Member Yahweh_is_gracious's Avatar
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    Default Re: can some people give me their....

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    I hear that word a lot, actually... but only God knows the heart
    Didn't I read a thread earlier this week or so where there was a member who claimed to be a prophet of God and that he just "knew" when someone was saved or not? Let's get him on the case. Surely he can sort this whole debacle out for the rest of us.

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