Reformed Only: Does Man have Free Choice?

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Does Man have Free Choice


  • Total voters
    14
D

Depleted

Guest
#1
This is not a question about what Man does with that choice. This is a question about if Man has free choice.

And please don't answer, unless you are reformed, (although I suspect it's the same answer.)
 
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Marano

Senior Member
Dec 7, 2011
398
32
28
29
#2
I believe man has a choice, the problem really is the nature of man that is contrary to everything that is good, that is why we see God's common grace at work all the time, in that the sun shines for the just and the unjust, all the time God is also restraining the evil of evil men, it's their nature to do evil, I believe you posted this once: a lion can be vegetarian, it's just against his nature to eat it, so a lion eats flesh, it's the same with evil men, any good they do is not counted for righteousness because it comes out of wicked desires and a wicked heart.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,177
2,539
113
#3
Reformed means changed right? Like being saved?
 

Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
2,824
207
63
#4
Reformed means changed right? Like being saved?

Hi Blain, No, Reformed means being a Calvinist, a Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc. Those that hold to the Tulip.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,177
2,539
113
#5

Hi Blain, No, Reformed means being a Calvinist, a Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc. Those that hold to the Tulip.
No idea what any of those are or why they hold to a flower but this sounds like i broke the rules of thread my bad Lynn
 
T

Tinuviel

Guest
#6
We shore do :). I've heard it explained as "free choice within our nature" all of our nature is permeated by sin, so we cannot choose something that is completely good, but I can decide what I do within my nature. We'll get into the "foreordained" thing another time :D
 
T

Tinuviel

Guest
#7
No idea what any of those are or why they hold to a flower but this sounds like i broke the rules of thread my bad Lynn
Total depravity
Unconditional election
Limited atonement
Irresistible grace
Perseverance of the saints.

T-U-L-I-P, tulip :) (not a flower but an acronym :)).
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,586
1,047
113
#8
like LT said, we will always choose that which we want most, and what we want is determined by our nature.
eh.... free choice; bound wills.


there, that oughta be helpful. :cool:
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#10
No idea what any of those are or why they hold to a flower but this sounds like i broke the rules of thread my bad Lynn
Ummm, I asked only that the Reformed answer the poll. I don't think talking on the thread is breaking the rules. And frankly, when people ask me if I am something, but I don't even know what it means, I tend to assume I'm not that. (Mostly questionnaires from doctor's offices, but, boy! They really do ask a lot of questions about if I ever had ____ when I don't even know what it means. lol)
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#11

Hi Blain, No, Reformed means being a Calvinist, a Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc. Those that hold to the Tulip.
Actually, most denominations go clear across the board. Some Presbyterians and Lutherans don't even expect their members to have to believe in God. One of my brothers headed the board in his Lutheran church and he was an atheist. Go figure.
 

TurtleLife

Junior Member
Dec 31, 2016
11
1
0
#12
First let me say that referring to various denominational labels is not very useful in determining doctrine. The reason is that in the various governing bodies for each denomination, and more so within the individual congregations, doctrinal beliefs can vary significantly. An atheist on a Lutheran board is an affront to Christian Orthodox beliefs and practice.
Also the use of the word “choice” might be non-specific; the doctrinal argument is usually framed in terms of “free will.”
Regarding free will, as with any important doctrine, one should go to the source documents. With internet access you can easily search for “reformed theology beliefs free will”. That search yielded much information on the subject of free will from notable authorities such as R.C. Sproul and his related Ligonier ministries, John MacArthur, reformationtheology.com/2007/11/understanding_free_will.php, etc.
The gold standard for setting out Orthodox Reformed Theology is the Westminster Confession of Faith fashioned by an assembly of 151 theologians (mostly Presbyterians and Puritans) at Westminster Abbey in 1643 (the first convention). Many Baptist churches and other congregations, whether denominational or nondenominational, base their Reformed Theology on this document.
The subject of free will can be confusing, but let’s look at the Confession, chapter 9, entitled Concerning Free Will.

  1. “God has given man a will, which by nature is free, that is, it is not forced or necessarily inclined toward good or evil
  2. Man had the ability to please God and do good in his innocent state. ”…”God also made man so that he could lose that freedom”.
  3. By falling into sin through disobedience man “completely lost his ability to will any spiritual good involving salvation. Consequently fallen man is by nature completely opposed to spiritual good, is dead in sin, and is unable by his own strength either to convert himself or to prepare himself for conversion”.
  4. “When God converts a sinner and brings him into a state of grace, he frees him from his natural enslavement to sin. By God’s grace alone, freely given, sinful man is enabled to will and to do what is spiritually good. However, since his old sinful nature also remains, the believer cannot consistently or perfectly will to do what is good but also wills evil.”
  5. “The will of man is perfectly free and permanently inclined to good alone only in the state of glory”.

All of these points have the supporting scriptures in the Westminster Confession book. Since the original confession was written in archaic English it has been updated into modern English. Also, the particular version I am using has been prepared by the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church and “includes a number of changes in the wording intended to more accurately reflect the precise sense of the original”. Of course the Internet can provide any version of the Westminster Confession, including the original in olde English, that you might desire to examine. Another reference is the book Willing to Believe -- the Controversy Over Free Will written by R.C. Sproul. Sproul is an eminent theologian of the reformed tradition and writes clearly and concisely; his books are very accessible to the lay-person.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#13
like LT said, we will always choose that which we want most, and what we want is determined by our nature.
eh.... free choice; bound wills.


But that isn't FREE choice.:)


 

TurtleLife

Junior Member
Dec 31, 2016
11
1
0
#14
Blain - I am interested to know more about your understanding of basic Christian beliefs. Reformed Theology is very orthodox in its Christian belief system, but there are other understandings of the Bible that are different in some respects from reformed theology but are orthodox Christian beliefs nonetheless.
[h=1]Therefore, I am interested as to where you are with regard to fundamental Christian beliefs; you seem to be uninformed in some of the deeper aspects of theology. I say this with a tender heart; there is no fault in being at a certain stage in your understanding. We all fall into the category of having an incomplete understanding; as the apostle Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:12 King James Version:[/h][SUP]“12 [/SUP]For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”
So how may we help you on your Christian journey?
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#15
First let me say that referring to various denominational labels is not very useful in determining doctrine. The reason is that in the various governing bodies for each denomination, and more so within the individual congregations, doctrinal beliefs can vary significantly. An atheist on a Lutheran board is an affront to Christian Orthodox beliefs and practice.
Also the use of the word “choice” might be non-specific; the doctrinal argument is usually framed in terms of “free will.”
Regarding free will, as with any important doctrine, one should go to the source documents. With internet access you can easily search for “reformed theology beliefs free will”. That search yielded much information on the subject of free will from notable authorities such as R.C. Sproul and his related Ligonier ministries, John MacArthur, reformationtheology.com/2007/11/understanding_free_will.php, etc.
The gold standard for setting out Orthodox Reformed Theology is the Westminster Confession of Faith fashioned by an assembly of 151 theologians (mostly Presbyterians and Puritans) at Westminster Abbey in 1643 (the first convention). Many Baptist churches and other congregations, whether denominational or nondenominational, base their Reformed Theology on this document.
The subject of free will can be confusing, but let’s look at the Confession, chapter 9, entitled Concerning Free Will.

  1. “God has given man a will, which by nature is free, that is, it is not forced or necessarily inclined toward good or evil
  2. Man had the ability to please God and do good in his innocent state. ”…”God also made man so that he could lose that freedom”.
  3. By falling into sin through disobedience man “completely lost his ability to will any spiritual good involving salvation. Consequently fallen man is by nature completely opposed to spiritual good, is dead in sin, and is unable by his own strength either to convert himself or to prepare himself for conversion”.
  4. “When God converts a sinner and brings him into a state of grace, he frees him from his natural enslavement to sin. By God’s grace alone, freely given, sinful man is enabled to will and to do what is spiritually good. However, since his old sinful nature also remains, the believer cannot consistently or perfectly will to do what is good but also wills evil.”
  5. “The will of man is perfectly free and permanently inclined to good alone only in the state of glory”.

All of these points have the supporting scriptures in the Westminster Confession book. Since the original confession was written in archaic English it has been updated into modern English. Also, the particular version I am using has been prepared by the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church and “includes a number of changes in the wording intended to more accurately reflect the precise sense of the original”. Of course the Internet can provide any version of the Westminster Confession, including the original in olde English, that you might desire to examine. Another reference is the book Willing to Believe -- the Controversy Over Free Will written by R.C. Sproul. Sproul is an eminent theologian of the reformed tradition and writes clearly and concisely; his books are very accessible to the lay-person.
Actually, this has more to do with what non-reformed keeps saying Reformed believes. At least two dozen times in the last week I have been told that we (I'm Reformed) don't believe in free choice. Whereas, I get the difference between free choice and free will, most non-Reformed don't. Add to that they also don't really know what they believe (most of the time) and cross link the two phrases as one meaning. And, within the last week I have told them we do believe in free choice often enough, (and have been told they understand but that's not what I'm really saying or I don't know what I'm talking about, because they know what I believe better than I do :confused:), BUT it is if every time I say that, they just skip by that post to go right back to saying we don't believe in free choice, or someone (or some three) in the Reformed camp don't believe that, as if that makes it then okay to say "Calvinists refuse free choice."

Got tired of being ignored, so figured if they read this poll and see the results, suddenly, at the very least, they'd get we believe in free choice.

Kind of one down and 19 more to go on straighten out the very basics of what we believe. Ultimately, I am eliminating their "free choice" in saying we don't believe in free choice, so they will stop lying about what we believe. They still have their free choice to say the same thing, but finally everyone gets to see anyone who makes that choice is intentionally lying. An understandable choice. Not very Christlike, but it is free choice.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#17
What are my choices?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#18
Depends on what you mean by "free choice".

In the meaning that nobody forces us to choose this or that? Yes.

In the meaning that we have absolutely indifferent equal inclination to two various choices? No. We choose what we like and we do not have control over what we like.
 
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D

Depleted

Guest
#19
Depends on what you mean by "free choice".

In the meaning that nobody forces us to choose this or that? Yes.

In the meaning that we have absolutely indifferent equal inclination to two various choices? No. We choose what we like and we do not have control over what we like.
Free choice. Are we free to choose anything we want? So, closer to the first one, than the second.

(And, I think the choice for your second definition would give me a third choice. If I am totally indifferent to my inclinations, I tend to opt for the third choice -- do nothing. If you give me the choice between cleaning your bathroom or chopping wood, frankly? I'm staying home. lol)
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
#20
Man? Lost man? Lost man has choice, but he is not free; John 8:35.

Of course, there are those who preach the false gospel of free will who say they came to God out of genuine love for Him. But this is contrary to Scripture and is an ideology shaped by Pelagius, Sandeman, Finney and others bringing many false converts to believe they are saved via a decision.

A good work for some of you to read would be "The Freedom of the Will" by Jonathan Edwards. This is directed toward those who believe Scripture and that God intended for others, by decree, to teach others as per Ephesians 4:11ff. :)