GOD IS SOVEREIGN AND HUMANS ARE RESPONSIBLE!

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
D

Depleted

Guest
#1
My hubby has the under-appreciated position of being my sounding board. In that, the poor guy has been listening to my frustrations for the last week about the Reformed V. Not-Reformed posts I've been drowning in.

He just sent this to me, and it's worth posting here. Something he got from FB, and then looked up all the verses and posted them from eSword for me. (He so deserves a strawberry milkshake in our garden for all this effort. lol) This is it!


Upon being asked how he reconciled divine sovereignty and human responsibility, Charles H. Spurgeon simply replied, “I do not try to reconcile friends.”

We find two points coinciding throughout all of scripture.

1. Scripture will not tolerate any view of God’s sovereign control that eliminates human responsibility.


2. We are morally responsible creatures but all such moral accountability never makes God absolutely contingent.


“At no point whatsoever does the remarkable emphasis on the absoluteness of God’s sovereignty mitigate the responsibility of human beings who, like everything else in the universe, fall under God’s sway. We tend to use one to diminish the other; we tend to emphasize one at the expense of the other. But responsible reading of the Scripture prohibits such reductionism.”
~ D.A. Carson.


According to Scripture, our decisions constitute real causes that produce real effects — for which we will be held accountable. The wise teacher wrote, “The conclusion, when all has been heard, is fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil” (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14).


“God is absolutely sovereign, but His sovereignty never functions in such a way that human responsibility is minimized or mitigated.”


Psa 115:2 Why should the nations say, "Where is their God?"

Psa 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.


Psa 135:6 Whatever the LORD pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps


Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,


Act 17:26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,


Pro 21:1 The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.


Pro 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.


Jer 10:23 I know, O LORD, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.


Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.


“Human beings are morally responsible creatures—they significantly choose, rebel, obey, believe, defy, make decisions, and so forth, and they are rightly held accountable for such actions; but this characteristic never functions so as to make God absolutely contingent.”

(see: Joshua 24:14-15, Romans 10:9-11, Exodus 19:4-6, Ezekiel 18:30-32).

(Truthfully, I'm back to not participating in Reformed-bashing again, so I'm leaving this here, and won't be arguing it. Believe it. Don't believe it. I don't care!)
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#2
Your entire framework is the antithesis of reason.

You cannot have "sovereignty," as Calvin viewed it, and at the same time have genuine responsibility.

Why clutch at straws in an attempt to defend foolishness? Isn't the truth more valuable than an emotional investment?

If God chooses salvation for some and denies it to others all within the framework of "birth inability" as John Calvin taught then obviously no-one is truly responsible for their conduct.

[FONT=Palatino Linotype, serif]"Weshall never feel persuaded as we ought that our salvation flows fromthe free mercy of God as its fountain, until we are made acquaintedwith his eternal election, thegrace of God being illustrated by the contrast—viz. thathe does not adopt all promiscuously to the hope of salvation, butgives to some what he denies to others.It is plain how greatly ignoranceof this principle detracts from the glory of God, and impairs truehumility." JohnCalvin, Institutes, Book V, Ch. 22, S. 1[/FONT]
The god you believe in as akin to a baker who refuses to add yeast to a dough and then is angry at the bread for not rising. It is so absurd you would almost have to attend seminary in order to believe it.

Vice and virtue cannot exist unless there exists the ability to be either chaste or unchaste.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#3
A quick look at the Westminster Confession of Faith demonstrates the foolishness of Reformed theology. They claim...


Inherited Guilt
III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed; and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.
Article 6, Westminster Confession

They literally believe that "guilt" is inherited. How so called "intellectuals" believe that I simply do not know.

You are born therefore you are guilty of Adam's sin. I mean really? It doesn't just defy reason, it is stupidity.


Inherited Inability
IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
Article 6, ibid

They not only believe that "guilt" is inherited, they also believe that "inability for virtue" is inherited also. A baby is born "wholly inclined to all evil" due to inheriting such a disposition.

There is no "choice" there, and without "choice" there obviously cannot be responsibility.


A dough without yeast is "wholly inclined to not rise." The responsibility of the "flat bread" lies with the baker who made the dough, not the dough itself. An attempt to shift the burden of responsibility off of the baker to the dough would be absurd.
 
Last edited:
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#5
Indeed....God is sovereign and man is response-able.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#6
Your entire framework is the antithesis of reason.

You cannot have "sovereignty," as Calvin viewed it, and at the same time have genuine responsibility.

Why clutch at straws in an attempt to defend foolishness? Isn't the truth more valuable than an emotional investment?

If God chooses salvation for some and denies it to others all within the framework of "birth inability" as John Calvin taught then obviously no-one is truly responsible for their conduct.



The god you believe in as akin to a baker who refuses to add yeast to a dough and then is angry at the bread for not rising. It is so absurd you would almost have to attend seminary in order to believe it.

Vice and virtue cannot exist unless there exists the ability to be either chaste or unchaste.
I so love the people who haven't even been alive as long as I've been a believer scolding me for my beliefs, while all the while really just proving they alone know all. :rolleyes:
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#7
If men were not corrupt in nature from birth...we would not need to correct our childrens behavior.

Our very blood is corrupt...diseased by death. Our blood is our life...touches every area of our being. And the glory of God lost until Jesus ?

Think a bit more about what Adam lost...then look at men.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#9
I so love the people who haven't even been alive as long as I've been a believer scolding me for my beliefs, while all the while really just proving they alone know all. :rolleyes:
What does "time" have to do with "reason'?

"Time" cannot magically transform the irrational, illogical and unreasonable into the rational, logical and reasonable.

It is a fact that without legitimate choice both virtue and vice are meaningless concepts.

When the Westminster Confession teaches both...

Inherited Guilt
III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed; and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.
...and...

Inherited Inability
IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
it is absurd to marry those teachings to both reason and responsibility. An appeal to "time" obviously doesn't change that. It is irreconcilable, which is why people like you cannot directly address the flaw, only attempt to misdirect people away from the obvious, just like you have done with your appeal to "time."
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#10
1. True or false: all humanity have inherited physical fleshly bodies that will grow old and eventually die from either disease, old age or calamities?

If that is a TRUE statement them all have inherited the consquences aka "guilt" from Adam's first sin.

How is that for logic?
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#11
2. True or false: all humans are born selfish, self absorbed and have to be taught to share, have compassion and shown why they need to seek God and follow His moral rules?

Innate human nature is selfishness that seeks desires often counter to God's will. Humans naturally seek idols and magic genies to grant them wishes.

Before God takes hold of a human heart, their prayers are "God what can I do,in order that you will give me this____?" or "God can you give me this? Why haven't you given me that?"


And other such self entitled drivel.

After God gives some one a NEW HEART and renew their mind. Our prayers change to "thank you Lord for Your blessings, how may I bless others and show Your love to them for Your glory?"
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#12
If men were not corrupt in nature from birth...we would not need to correct our childrens behavior.
Why not? A child is ignorant and therefore needs guidance. The necessity of "guidance" does not equate to "inability."

The "grace" of God is the guidance that necessary, and this guidance has appeared to all men.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

The very word "grace" in the Greek is a reference to the "divine influence of God upon the heart."

Grace - charis - G5485From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

The grace of God is manifest through the conscience (Joh 1:7, Rom 2:14-15), through the Scriptures (2Ti 3:16), and through the teachings of Jesus Christ (1Tim 6:3). The grace of God is also found in the quickening wrought by the Spirit (Eph 2:5).

Nature is not corrupt from birth, in fact the very word "nature" in the Greek refers to GROWTH which is why the term is used to refer both to godliness (Rom 2:14-15) and iniquity (Eph 2:3).

nature - phusis v- G5449 [Strong's]
From G5453; growth (by germination or expansion), that is, (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension a genus or sort; figuratively native disposition, constitution or usage: - ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).

If human beings were "born depraved" and "disabled" from virtue then Paul could not say that the Gentiles "DO BY NATURE" that which is contained in the law.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

The Gentiles Paul is referring to show the work of the law written in their hearts and their conscience bears witness to them.

All human beings have a conscience which either accuses or excuses them, being the light that has appeared to all men.

A baby is neither righteous not unrighteous because vice and virtue pertain to voluntary choice, a baby is ignorant and thus cannot exercise a choice between good and evil. A baby is simply ruled by carnal passions in an innocent state. Yet you would label an infant guilty and evil? What a horrible misrepresentation of the little one's which God has made.


Does a mathematics student have an inability to learn and be proficient at math? Of course not. Do they need instruction? Of course they do. Does a baby have an inability to learn and be godly? Of course not. Do they need instruction? Of course they do.

We are responsible for our deeds because we can refuse instruction and CHOOSE to walk contrary to the grace of God. Not due to inability, but due to wanting to be our own god.

Use your brain and be reasonable. Your perspective is completely irrational and foolish, and if you attempt to promote Christianity from that perspective you are misrepresenting God and the way.





Our very blood is corrupt...diseased by death. Our blood is our life...touches every area of our being. And the glory of God lost until Jesus ?

Think a bit more about what Adam lost...then look at men.
Blood is blood. Jesus was born of flesh and blood. Blood is not corrupt.

The Bible teaches that the corruption that is in the world is through LUST.

Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Sin unto death is the result of OBEYING LUST...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Temptation is NOT sin.

You are blaming your "blood" for sin by marrying "inability" to blood. Thus in your mind you are a VICTIM OF BIRTH, not a SINNER BY CHOICE. If you truly believe that you are a sinner because you were "born that way" then there is no possible way you can claim that YOU are responsible for your sin. It is impossible. The cause lies with your birth. You are just a VICTIM under that mindset.

Eve was drawn away of her own lust and enticed...

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Eve did not have to eat of the fruit, she freely CHOSE to eat of it, despite being commanded by God not to.

When a human being CHOOSES to yield to lust in rebellion to the instruction of God then that is a sin unto death. The human being is ENTIRELY responsible, their birth not being to blame.

This is all plain common sense.
 
Last edited:
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#13
1. True or false: all humanity have inherited physical fleshly bodies that will grow old and eventually die from either disease, old age or calamities?

If that is a TRUE statement them all have inherited the consquences aka "guilt" from Adam's first sin.

How is that for logic?
The Bible says this...

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

"Physical death" is the result of mortal man being denied access to the Tree of Life.

Yes it was a consequence of Adam's sin. Yet that does not mean you were "born guilty" of Adam's sin, nor were born "morally depraved."

Literal guilt cannot be inherited. Think about it. If I murder someone the "guilt of murder" cannot be inherited by my children. That is ridiculous.

Sin is an action of thought and deed. It is a MORAL CONCEPT pertaining to REJECTING RIGHT and CHOOSING WRONG. You cannot inherit a "moral concept." You cannot inherit someone else's "choice." Vice and virtue are not physical properties that exist in blood. Such a belief is rooted in ancient pagan philosophy, in particular with the Forms of Plato. That kind of philosophy infiltrated through the Augustine of Hippo.

[video=youtube;KVQ1t5i058Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVQ1t5i058Q[/video]

Use your reason and believe the Bible.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#14
Your entire framework is the antithesis of reason.
So says who?

You cannot have "sovereignty," as Calvin viewed it, and at the same time have genuine responsibility.
Well actually you can. But not all follow Calvin all the way, or Huss. We follow Scripture.

Why clutch at straws in an attempt to defend foolishness? Isn't the truth more valuable than an emotional investment?
Ok then drop your emotional investment and accept God's truth,

If God chooses salvation for some and denies it to others all within the framework of "birth inability" as John Calvin taught then obviously no-one is truly responsible for their conduct.
I fail to see how one affects the other. Scripture declares that God does choose salvation for some and not for others. But we are all responsible for our conduct. It is our conduct that has necessitated the choice.


The god you believe in as akin to a baker who refuses to add yeast to a dough and then is angry at the bread for not rising.
Rubbish, but it does raise the question of how we interpret Romans 9.

It is so absurd you would almost have to attend seminary in order to believe it.
Ah now we have it. You have never been able to attend seminary. That is why you're so heated.

Vice and virtue cannot exist unless there exists the ability to be either chaste or unchaste.
But we are all unchaste.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#15
2. True or false: all humans are born selfish, self absorbed and have to be taught to share, have compassion and shown why they need to seek God and follow His moral rules?
A baby is born IGNORANT and subject to NATURAL CARNAL PASSION.

That is not evil. Just as a lion eating a zebra is not evil either.

Good and evil pertain to MORALITY.

MORALITY pertains to CHOICE.

A virtuous act cannot be virtuous in the absence of the CHOICE to not be virtuous.

Likewise, a wicked act cannot be wicked in the absence of the CHOICE to be good.

To claim that a baby is "born evil" is ridiculous and unreasonable. A baby knows not a thing about morality. Evil can only manifest when the child has the capacity to REASON where they then can REFUSE EVIL and thus CHOOSE GOOD.

The Bible teaches that "corruption is in the world through lust."

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

A Christian has ESCAPED the corruption that is in the world through lust.

If we read what James wrote about lust he says...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Examine the order...

Temptation wrought through Lust -------------------> Enticement ------------------> Lust gives birth to sin -------------> Death.

That is EXACTLY what happened with Eve...

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

A Christian has CRUCIFIED their lusts...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

The lusts are not evil, it is only in submitting to them in disobedience to righteousness that sin is wrought. Hence...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Sin unto death = disobedience to righteousness
Obedience unto righteousness = disobedience to sin.

Common sense.

A baby can not do that because they have no concept at all as it pertains to unrighteousness nor righteousness. Hence they need instruction.

How can a baby sin with no concept of righteousness? Answer that. How can a baby be guilty before God?

God would be a tyrant to declare an infant as guilty and under condemnation. It is absurd.

Stop regurgitating theology and be sensible. God is reasonable.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#16
A quick look at the Westminster Confession of Faith demonstrates the foolishness of Reformed theology. They claim...


Inherited Guilt
Article 6, Westminster Confession

They literally believe that "guilt" is inherited. How so called "intellectuals" believe that I simply do not know.

You are born therefore you are guilty of Adam's sin. I mean really? It doesn't just defy reason, it is stupidity.
Ask Paul (Rom 5.11-21). And I didn't know he was stupid lol


Inherited Inability
Article 6, ibid

They not only believe that "guilt" is inherited, they also believe that "inability for virtue" is inherited also. A baby is born "wholly inclined to all evil" due to inheriting such a disposition.
Paul taught that as well :)

There is no "choice" there, and without "choice" there obviously cannot be responsibility.
there is choice, and it results in doing evil.

A dough without yeast is "wholly inclined to not rise."
But the dough has not inherited sin,

The responsibility of the "flat bread" lies with the baker who made the dough, not the dough itself. An attempt to shift the burden of responsibility off of the baker to the dough would be absurd.
But man's sin INITIALLY resulted from freewill. Thus the case is different.

You had better stop reading the Scriptures. You will find these doctrines at every turn.
 
Feb 5, 2017
1,118
36
0
#17
Yes, no child is born evil. To say so, as many do when they see an adult who becomes a monster, are saying that God does not exist, or that God doesn't exist in some cases conditionally.

But every child is born with the capacity to sin and become evil, there is no doubt, but these are two very different perspectives.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#18
The very first time I was ever used in the prophetic, was when I was young in the Lord and knew very little beyond repent and be saved.

My brother put this question to me...why are babies sinful.

My mouth opens and this came out...they are born into sin, yet without sin. No acts of it...but the nature.

Its true.
 
Feb 5, 2017
1,118
36
0
#19
I wonder if God thinks that children could teach a few people here things. To me many adults stray down the path of many dividing thoughts until they live on their own island of belief, and that belief which is stored in the carnal mind, becomes more important than the simplicity of being like a child, and the simplicity of God. God is Love.

And where there is no talk of love, or spirit of love in speech, I think there is a rejection of God, even if one claims that they talk in the name of God. For God knows who you speak for, you speak for yourself, and from yourself. Not through the mind of Christ, not through the mind of God. For God is Love, therefore Jesus is Love, and Love is central to everything you say or do.

Make it so or make it not, that is the fine line of free will.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#20
So says who?



Well actually you can. But not all follow Calvin all the way, or Huss. We follow Scripture.



Ok then drop your emotional investment and accept God's truth,



I fail to see how one affects the other. Scripture declares that God does choose salvation for some and not for others. But we are all responsible for our conduct. It is our conduct that has necessitated the choice.




Rubbish, but it does raise the question of how we interpret Romans 9.



Ah now we have it. You have never been able to attend seminary. That is why you're so heated.



But we are all unchaste.
Valiant? I appreciate the effort, but he's never going to listen and I'm just really tired of the arguing.