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For people that think that God is cruel in going against certain people in the Old Testament,if He did not then more people would of been physically hurt,and deceived from the truth.
Do people think that God was going around punishing every single nation,and causing them to cease.
God only went against the people that were physically cruel,and would try to pervert people from the truth,and the people that God went against were far less than the people that would of been physically hurt,and deceived from the truth if God did not intercede.
If God did not intervene to put down certain people,way more people would of been physically hurt,and deceived from the truth,than if God did not intervene.
If God did not intervene until Christ came giving spiritual salvation then it appears as if no one would be saved,for the heathen would of wiped out many people physically,and perverted people from the truth with no reversal,which would of been like the time before the flood all over again.
And God sure of had to protect Israel from being wiped out,and perverted from the truth,for Jesus was coming through the nation of Israel.
If God did not protect Israel by His own power,they would of been wiped out,and then where is the hope of the world,for Jesus coming through the nation of Israel would not happen for there would not be any more Israel,for the devil would of seen to it.
Do people think little Israel,and the devil trying to throw everything at her to wipe her out would of been around if God did not intervene to perserve Israel.
And they say God is cruel.
If God had not caused kingdoms that were highly physically cruel,and perverting people from the truth,and spreading their falsehoods throughout their kingdom as far as they can extend to cease,than it would of been much worse in the Old Testament.
The people that God had Israel go against,and intervened Himself to put down,were far,far,far,less in number,than the people that would of been hurt,deceived from the truth,than if God did not intervene.
But oh God is cruel.
King David messed up,God gave him a choice of punishment,which two were God going against them,or their enemies going against them.
David chose their enemies,people going against them,for he said,God has mercy,but people do not.
And as far as God hardening Pharoah's heart,He did not touch Pharoah's heart to be hardened,for God does not give evil.
But He allowed an evil spirit to harden Pharoah,or Pharoah became hardened by his own human nature.
God does not touch people for evil,to cause them to do evil.
The Bible says,God created evil,but He did not,for Lucifer was created perfect in his ways,until iniquity was found in him,and God made man upright,but they sought out many inventions.
When it says God created evil,it is not that He created evil outright,but because He gave angels,and people a choice,their bad choices is why there is evil,which they could not do the evil unless God created them with a choice.
God did not create evil outright,but it could not of happened unless He gave the angels,and people,a choice,and their bad choices is why the evil came about.
God does not touch people for evil,but if they do not want to accept the truth,He may allow them to be influenced by an evil spirit,which is in the case of Pharoah.
Do people think that God was going around punishing every single nation,and causing them to cease.
God only went against the people that were physically cruel,and would try to pervert people from the truth,and the people that God went against were far less than the people that would of been physically hurt,and deceived from the truth if God did not intercede.
If God did not intervene to put down certain people,way more people would of been physically hurt,and deceived from the truth,than if God did not intervene.
If God did not intervene until Christ came giving spiritual salvation then it appears as if no one would be saved,for the heathen would of wiped out many people physically,and perverted people from the truth with no reversal,which would of been like the time before the flood all over again.
And God sure of had to protect Israel from being wiped out,and perverted from the truth,for Jesus was coming through the nation of Israel.
If God did not protect Israel by His own power,they would of been wiped out,and then where is the hope of the world,for Jesus coming through the nation of Israel would not happen for there would not be any more Israel,for the devil would of seen to it.
Do people think little Israel,and the devil trying to throw everything at her to wipe her out would of been around if God did not intervene to perserve Israel.
And they say God is cruel.
If God had not caused kingdoms that were highly physically cruel,and perverting people from the truth,and spreading their falsehoods throughout their kingdom as far as they can extend to cease,than it would of been much worse in the Old Testament.
The people that God had Israel go against,and intervened Himself to put down,were far,far,far,less in number,than the people that would of been hurt,deceived from the truth,than if God did not intervene.
But oh God is cruel.
King David messed up,God gave him a choice of punishment,which two were God going against them,or their enemies going against them.
David chose their enemies,people going against them,for he said,God has mercy,but people do not.
And as far as God hardening Pharoah's heart,He did not touch Pharoah's heart to be hardened,for God does not give evil.
But He allowed an evil spirit to harden Pharoah,or Pharoah became hardened by his own human nature.
God does not touch people for evil,to cause them to do evil.
The Bible says,God created evil,but He did not,for Lucifer was created perfect in his ways,until iniquity was found in him,and God made man upright,but they sought out many inventions.
When it says God created evil,it is not that He created evil outright,but because He gave angels,and people a choice,their bad choices is why there is evil,which they could not do the evil unless God created them with a choice.
God did not create evil outright,but it could not of happened unless He gave the angels,and people,a choice,and their bad choices is why the evil came about.
God does not touch people for evil,but if they do not want to accept the truth,He may allow them to be influenced by an evil spirit,which is in the case of Pharoah.
FTR, I am not doubting what notmyown said, I am simply doubting what another may have told her. As far as I can tell, notmyown is an upstanding person on this site. But the Reformed are under such barrage on here, I am just not willing to accept the story relayed to her as pure truth. I'm not into accusations, too many of them are plainly false. 
Oh no, a gotcha verse that undoes all Calvinist truth!
That's not exactly what 2 Corinthians 4 says, is it? He blinds their minds, noema, intellect. He would then be attempting to do the very opposite of what God does. Sounds perfectly Satanic to me.
I don't find that unreasonable or controversial at all, he's probably armininan at heart and thinks he can thwart Gods will.
That's not exactly what 2 Corinthians 4 says, is it? He blinds their minds, noema, intellect. He would then be attempting to do the very opposite of what God does. Sounds perfectly Satanic to me.
I don't find that unreasonable or controversial at all, he's probably armininan at heart and thinks he can thwart Gods will.
If humans are already too depraved to receive the gospel,
why does Satan need to blind their intellect so they can't understand it?
It's a pointless effort.
1. Why does Satan waste his time thwarting people who are already irrevocably thwarted?
2. Why does the context of 1Co.4:4 imply people WOULD see the light of the gospel if Satan was not blinding them?
Yes, His will is that all will be saved, just not in the way you think. If God willed (determined) all (each and every person ever) would be saved they would be saved. Therefore all cannot mean each and every human who has ever lived. Context must be applied to passages that seem to look toward either a failure of God's determination, or as a seed toward Universalism. 2 Peter 3:9 the us he is speaking of are the elect. In 1 Timothy 2:4 the "all" refers to men in all types of position, not to all who would ever exist.
There's another term that is man's term: enabling grace. "No man can come to me UNLESS the Father which has sent me draw him . . . There we go with the drawing, the calling, convicting, persuading - I got that. That drawing, calling, convicting, persuading is done through the word of God and that is where faith comes from; (belief/trust) in what we hear - some will hear and believe, some will not. They are not forced to believe and they are not forced to not believe . . . man can accept, man can deny. When someone calls an answer has to be made and one has to use their will to answer.
Man is dead in sins and is lost . . . but that doesn't mean that man can't chose good over evil. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
I don't see anything about Irresistible Grace. I see too many verses wherein man is told to believe in the only begotten Son of God. I see that some believe and some do not - I see that as each individual having a choice to make for themselves after hearing the word of God. From my point of view, for God to chose some over others makes him a respecter of persons.
I'm not arguing with you just stating my thoughts on the matter from what I see in the word just as you are doing.
I'm not arguing with you just stating my thoughts on the matter from what I see in the word just as you are doing.
Yes, His will is that all will be saved, just not in the way you think. If God willed (determined) all (each and every person ever) would be saved they would be saved. Therefore all cannot mean each and every human who has ever lived. Context must be applied to passages that seem to look toward either a failure of God's determination, or as a seed toward Universalism. 2 Peter 3:9 the us he is speaking of are the elect. In 1 Timothy 2:4 the "all" refers to men in all types of position, not to all who would ever exist.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. If one is part of the elect shouldn't that one already repented? The elect would be part of the "whosoevers" that have believed in the only begotten Son of God . . . the elect are the ones who have believed, repented, confessed Jesus as Lord . . . the elect are the ones who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption after they believed.
K
Still no answer to this...
Right here is the heart of the issue,once again from Wesley....
.... To this some have answered, "No: It is free only for those whom God hath ordained to life; and they are but a little flock. The greater part of God hath ordained to death; and it is not free for them. Them God hateth; and, therefore, before they were born, decreed they should die eternally. And this he absolutely decreed; because so was his good pleasure; because it was his sovereign will. Accordingly, they are born for this, -- to be destroyed body and soul in hell. And they grow up under the irrevocable curse of God, without any possibility of redemption; for what grace God gives. he gives only for this, to increase, not prevent, their damnation."
5. This that decree of predestination. But methinks I hear one say, "This is not the predestination which I hold: I hold only the election of grace. What I believe is not more than this, -- that God,, before the foundation of the world, did elect a certain number of men to be justified, sanctified, and glorified. Now, all these will be saved, and none else; for the rest of mankind God leaves to themselves: So they follow the imaginations of their own hearts, which are only evil continually, and, waxing worse and worse, are at length justly punished with everlasting destruction."
6. Is this all the predestination which you hold Consider; perhaps this is not all. Do not you believe God ordained them to this very thing" If so, you believe the whole degree; you hold predestination in the full sense which has been above described. But it may be you think you do not. Do not you then believe, God hardens the hearts of them that perish: Do not you believe, he (literally) hardened Pharaoh's heart; and that for this end he raised him up, or created him Why, this amounts to just the same thing. If you believe Pharaoh, or any one man upon earth, was created for this end, -- to be damned, -- you hold all that has been said of predestination. And there is no need you should add, that God seconds his degree, which is supposed unchangeable and irresistible, by hardening the hearts of those vessels of wrath whom that decree had before fitted for destruction.
Here is where those who disagree with Calvinism stop,those who speak of Reformed,this is where we all part ways. Now preacher if this is not what you believe will you kindly and plainly tell me where Wesley is wrong.
Right here is the heart of the issue,once again from Wesley....
.... To this some have answered, "No: It is free only for those whom God hath ordained to life; and they are but a little flock. The greater part of God hath ordained to death; and it is not free for them. Them God hateth; and, therefore, before they were born, decreed they should die eternally. And this he absolutely decreed; because so was his good pleasure; because it was his sovereign will. Accordingly, they are born for this, -- to be destroyed body and soul in hell. And they grow up under the irrevocable curse of God, without any possibility of redemption; for what grace God gives. he gives only for this, to increase, not prevent, their damnation."
5. This that decree of predestination. But methinks I hear one say, "This is not the predestination which I hold: I hold only the election of grace. What I believe is not more than this, -- that God,, before the foundation of the world, did elect a certain number of men to be justified, sanctified, and glorified. Now, all these will be saved, and none else; for the rest of mankind God leaves to themselves: So they follow the imaginations of their own hearts, which are only evil continually, and, waxing worse and worse, are at length justly punished with everlasting destruction."
6. Is this all the predestination which you hold Consider; perhaps this is not all. Do not you believe God ordained them to this very thing" If so, you believe the whole degree; you hold predestination in the full sense which has been above described. But it may be you think you do not. Do not you then believe, God hardens the hearts of them that perish: Do not you believe, he (literally) hardened Pharaoh's heart; and that for this end he raised him up, or created him Why, this amounts to just the same thing. If you believe Pharaoh, or any one man upon earth, was created for this end, -- to be damned, -- you hold all that has been said of predestination. And there is no need you should add, that God seconds his degree, which is supposed unchangeable and irresistible, by hardening the hearts of those vessels of wrath whom that decree had before fitted for destruction.
Here is where those who disagree with Calvinism stop,those who speak of Reformed,this is where we all part ways. Now preacher if this is not what you believe will you kindly and plainly tell me where Wesley is wrong.
I always wondered why she used that verse as her handle, when she is so again the Lord being the source and provider of our salvation. I see people quoting and using Scripture that proves that the Lord is the beginner and preserver of our salvation, yet they by their words do not believe that. It does make you wonder if they truly know the Lord or if they simply do not understand the Word of God, my prayer is for the latter.
It amazes me how much you see in the Bible once the veil has been removed, to see the Beauty of God's Holiness. Our minds have been twisted to our understanding of the word "love" the world has twisted it to mean that if someone loves you they will give you everything in their power to give and will let you do whatever you want to do. Many have transferred that belief on to the nature of the Lord, when the Lord is the definition of love, He brings correction when correction is needed, when He judges He does it with all knowledge, nothing is hidden form His sight. "Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God." I Corinthians 4:5.
It amazes me how much you see in the Bible once the veil has been removed, to see the Beauty of God's Holiness. Our minds have been twisted to our understanding of the word "love" the world has twisted it to mean that if someone loves you they will give you everything in their power to give and will let you do whatever you want to do. Many have transferred that belief on to the nature of the Lord, when the Lord is the definition of love, He brings correction when correction is needed, when He judges He does it with all knowledge, nothing is hidden form His sight. "Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God." I Corinthians 4:5.
D
I don't see anything about Irresistible Grace. I see too many verses wherein man is told to believe in the only begotten Son of God. I see that some believe and some do not - I see that as each individual having a choice to make for themselves after hearing the word of God. From my point of view, for God to chose some over others makes him a respecter of persons.
I'm not arguing with you just stating my thoughts on the matter from what I see in the word just as you are doing.
I'm not arguing with you just stating my thoughts on the matter from what I see in the word just as you are doing.
But to answer your question, you've got a timeline problem going on. You think Irresistible Grace comes along when we're deciding. Beyond not thinking we'd ever make that decision, it's also the wrong part in the timeline.
God predestines and elects way before he created the universe. Jesus redeemed way back in about 33 AD. And we become redeemed after being called, and being regenerated, and even and then is that moment of irresistible grace. About the same time we are adopted by God. His irresistible grace. We want to be elected by the best father ever. it never dawns on us to not want that. Even now we can't come up a single reasons we don't wanna. He gives even that to us. We're his, we got full on of who he is, and no desire to leave. That's the Irresistible and even he gives that to us.
