revelation to 7 churches???

[Muzungu256]

hi all!!!!!!!!

as you know when you read through revelation it says in the very beginning that Jesus is showing john the things that must soon take place and he needs to send the revelation to the 7 churches that are then listed.
it also tells us that the people who pierced Him will see Him. and in the end of the entire book it says that i come quickly and dont seal up the book of this prophecy.

all this tells me that this must have happened back then but i dont know how because it should have been new heaven and new earth already. maybe it was talking about destruction of jerusalem, maybe it was talking about something happening in the spiritual realm for john was in the spirit.

i want your opinions and advice on this, who has any idea what the book could be about? it has to be something that happened when the 7churches and those who pierced Jesus were still alive.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here are some grace based teachings with the finished work of Christ as it's base viewing the churches in Revelation 2 &3. We must always look at all obscure scripture through the very clear scriptures.

The "soiling of the garments" is answered in Incomplete Deeds: The Zombie Church of Sardis (Rev 3:1-6)"

I like to use this site sometimes as it answers the tough contradictory scriptures in light of the finished work of Christ which is very clearly outlined in scriptures. It also has at the bottom of the article a place where people have asked questions. Sometimes I learn a lot from that area too.

There are a number of articles about the people in Revelation 2 and 3..:

Strike Her Children Dead (Revelation 2:23) ( Jezebel one )

https://escapetoreality.org/2015/06/...velation-2v23/


This one is all about the Laodicean church.

https://escapetoreality.org/category/laodicean-church/

This one is about " Incomplete Deeds: The Zombie Church of Sardis (Rev 3:1-6)"

https://escapetoreality.org/2010/04/...rdis-rev-31-6/

Here is one about." Forsaking Your First Love: What Was the Ephesians’ Problem? (Rev 2:1-7)"

https://escapetoreality.org/2010/04/...blem-rev-21-7/

Here is one about " Holding Fast in Thyatira: The Seductress versus the Savior (Rev 2:18-29)

https://escapetoreality.org/2010/04/...or-rev-218-29/

 

[stonesoffire]

I'm not into Revelations that much but one thing I saw in "shortly come to pass" is the greek word for tachometer. Like a car pressing on the gas and steadily coming up to speed.

I don't think that has happened.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Greetings Muzungu256,

it has to be something that happened when the 7churches and those who pierced Jesus were still alive.

First, it is important to understand that there is a difference between the event of the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. That said, the reference to "Every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him" is referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, as described in Matt.24:30-31 and Rev.19:11-21.

The reference to "even those who pierced him" could either be referring to the actual people who pierced him, which would be referring to those spirits who are in Sheol/Hades whom God will make possible for them to see him returning to the earth. Or it could be referring to that lineage of people. In any case, when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, every eye will see him.

Regarding the seven churches, they were letters to repent for each type of believer within those churches. Those letters are also directed to the entire church period until the end and they in fact represents the entire church period from beginning to end.

John's scripture in Rev.1:7 is in regards to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age in Rev.19:11-21

 

[Muzungu256]

hi Ahwatukee!!!

what do you mean by "First, it is important to understand that there is a difference between the event of the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age." ?

 

[MattforJesus]

hi all!!!!!!!!

as you know when you read through revelation it says in the very beginning that Jesus is showing john the things that must soon take place and he needs to send the revelation to the 7 churches that are then listed.
it also tells us that the people who pierced Him will see Him. and in the end of the entire book it says that i come quickly and dont seal up the book of this prophecy.

all this tells me that this must have happened back then but i dont know how because it should have been new heaven and new earth already. maybe it was talking about destruction of jerusalem, maybe it was talking about something happening in the spiritual realm for john was in the spirit.

i want your opinions and advice on this, who has any idea what the book could be about? it has to be something that happened when the 7churches and those who pierced Jesus were still alive.

I believe the 7 Churches are the way the history of the Church will go from the beginning to the end,in big influence at the time they were popular,although the traits of the Churches can be in every time period,the one that was at the time of popularity had a big influence at that time,and even though they were some things Jesus addressed that were wrong,there is always people that dwell in the truth,and those that did err Jesus said,repent and they would be back on the right track.

You can see the Catholic Church in there,the Protestant movement,and the end time Church age,which is now where the saints are in to believing that God blesses with material things,and money,for personal use other than their needs,and the needs of others,or they do not care.

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

The first Church could of not been abiding by loving each other as Jesus stated they should,but other than that there was not great deception yet,but it is the first Church age.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Then deception started creeping in,possibly along the lines of the occult,which is the foundation of the Roman Catholic Church,for they did not get rid of their religious ways,but dragged them in to the Bible,and it became their foundation for interpreting scriptures.

Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Rev 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

This could be the prime of the Roman Catholic Church,and the occult is of the devil.

Rev 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Rev 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

I believe it is still the Roman Catholic Church for they spanned for quite a while influencing people,and can be considered the synagogue of Satan,for she had witchcraft about her,and paganism.

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

People started getting to the truth as the word was more available to the people,and realizing the error of the Catholic Church,although some recognized their error before,for God always has people in the truth.Protestant movement.

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

The 6th Church and the last Church will both be mingled in together,as there are many people that abide in the truth,but then there are many hypocrites of the last Church that will be a big influence at the end time.

Jesus will deliver all those that abide in the truth from the temptation,which shall come upon all the world,to try them that dwell upon the earth,so this Church age has to have a big influence in the end time,for that temptation comes upon the whole world,and there can only be one temptation that can come upon the whole world,and that is when the world says Peace and safety,which will be the decision point of the whole world that is tempted when they say Peace and safety,for it is the time for God to allow all people who do not love Him to follow a kingdom that believes in no personal God,so He can put the wicked down.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Those that abide in the truth,that day will not deceive them,for they know that the world coming together is not of God,and not of the truth,and they will not follow the world as they go to the beast kingdom.

Those that do not abide in the truth,and the world,will be tempted to follow the world,but it is only a temptation,and many hypocrites may get right with God at that time.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

This is the last Church age that is popular,and has a big influence among those who claim Christ,who are hypocritical,and believe God blesses with material things,and money,but the 6th Church is also there people that abide in the truth,and the Roman Catholic Church is still there,but the 7th Church has a big influence among Protestants,Catholics,and other groups who call themselves Christians at the end time.

That is what it seems to me is that the 7 Churches is a prophesy of the history of the Church that had a big influence at the time they were popular.

Started out they left their first love,and then the Roman Catholic Church and their paganistic interpretation of the Bible,then people getting to the truth that has a big influence,Protestant movement,to the last Church age at the end time,big influence in hypocrisy,and the prosperity Gospel that neglects the poor and needy.

And we see a lot of that today,lukewarm people claiming Christ,hypocrites,loving money,and material things,and worldliness.

 

[oldhermit]

hi all!!!!!!!!

as you know when you read through revelation it says in the very beginning that Jesus is showing john the things that must soon take place and he needs to send the revelation to the 7 churches that are then listed.
it also tells us that the people who pierced Him will see Him. and in the end of the entire book it says that i come quickly and dont seal up the book of this prophecy.

all this tells me that this must have happened back then but i dont know how because it should have been new heaven and new earth already. maybe it was talking about destruction of jerusalem, maybe it was talking about something happening in the spiritual realm for john was in the spirit.

i want your opinions and advice on this, who has any idea what the book could be about? it has to be something that happened when the 7churches and those who pierced Jesus were still alive.

John wrote Revelation to a specific group of churches in Asia Minor, 1:4. This is a critical point that has been overlooked by many scholars and commentators which shows that Revelation could not have been written before 61 AD. There was only a very small opportunity of time in which these seven churches in Asia existed at the same time. This was in the late 50’s to early AD 60's. The apostle Paul established nine churches in that area, but only seven were addressed in Revelation. This is a good indicator that places the writing of Revelation sometime after two of these churches had disappeared. Around 60 or 61 AD the cities of Colossae, Hierapolis, and Laodicea, were destroyed by an earthquake. Laodicea was soon afterwards rebuilt, but Colossae and Hierapolis were not. This left only seven churches in Asia during the five years just prior to the beginning of the Roman/Jewish war.

It is important to note Jesus' particular message to the specific Church of Philadelphia in 3:7-13. In verses 10 and 11, Jesus told John to warn the Church there that an "hour of temptation" was "about to come upon all the world." That "hour of temptation" was to be the time of persecution executed by the Empire of Roman. Christ then told them that He was coming quickly and he admonished them to "hold fast". This is important because this warning was given to a specific congregation of Christians in a specified area of Asia Minor in a specific time in history. The first Roman persecution of Christians took place under Nero in 64AD but, at the time of the revelation, it had not yet begun. Therefore, Revelation had to have been written before 64AD.

 

[tanakh]

John wrote Revelation to a specific group of churches in Asia Minor, 1:4. This is a critical point that has been overlooked by many scholars and commentators which shows that Revelation could not have been written before 61 AD. There was only a very small opportunity of time in which these seven churches in Asia existed at the same time. This was in the late 50’s to early AD 60's. The apostle Paul established nine churches in that area, but only seven were addressed in Revelation. This is a good indicator that places the writing of Revelation sometime after two of these churches had disappeared. Around 60 or 61 AD the cities of Colossae, Hierapolis, and Laodicea, were destroyed by an earthquake. Laodicea was soon afterwards rebuilt, but Colossae and Hierapolis were not. This left only seven churches in Asia during the five years just prior to the beginning of the Roman/Jewish war.

It is important to note Jesus' particular message to the specific Church of Philadelphia in 3:7-13. In verses 10 and 11, Jesus told John to warn the Church there that an "hour of temptation" was "about to come upon all the world." That "hour of temptation" was to be the time of persecution executed by the Empire of Roman. Christ then told them that He was coming quickly and he admonished them to "hold fast". This is important because this warning was given to a specific congregation of Christians in a specified area of Asia Minor in a specific time in history. The first Roman persecution of Christians took place under Nero in 64AD but, at the time of the revelation, it had not yet begun. Therefore, Revelation had to have been written before 64AD.

I am impressed by your method of deduction when dating Revelation but not convinced. The main problem is that all the notable ''Church Fathers'' date it at the time of Domitian who died in 96AD and did persecute the Church. Most people who date the book from the reign of Nero are Preterists who believe that everything in Revelation happened before 70AD. If it was written under Nero one question to answer is why he had Peter and Paul executed and only sent John into exile ?

 

[Ahwatukee]

hi all!!!!!!!!

as you know when you read through revelation it says in the very beginning that Jesus is showing john the things that must soon take place and he needs to send the revelation to the 7 churches that are then listed.
it also tells us that the people who pierced Him will see Him. and in the end of the entire book it says that i come quickly and don't seal up the book of this prophecy.

all this tells me that this must have happened back then but i don't know how because it should have been new heaven and new earth already. maybe it was talking about destruction of Jerusalem, maybe it was talking about something happening in the spiritual realm for john was in the spirit.

i want your opinions and advice on this, who has any idea what the book could be about? it has to be something that happened when the 7churches and those who pierced Jesus were still alive.

While it is true that the letters were written to the literal churches mentioned of that time, they were also written to the entire church period from that time until the end of the church period. The letters are meant for individual believers throughout the entire church period to examine ourselves in light of the rebukes and warnings in those letters.

In Rev.3:10, because of patient endurance, He promises to keep them/us out of the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those on the face of the earth.

That "time of trial" is another designation for "the day of the Lord" which has yet to take place. It will be neither be a hour nor a day in length, but is referring to the time period when God will pour out His wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Therefore, the promise is to those believers who would be present just prior to God's wrath. And the way in which the Lord will keep His promise to keep us "out of" that hour of trial, will be by His appearing and the gathering of the church, dead and living, at the resurrection and to take the entire group back to the Father's house in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-17.

Furthermore, the dates given in a previous post regarding the seven churches is incorrect. John was exiled to the isle of Patmos during the reign of Domitian who reigned from 81 AD to 96 AD, which would put the writing of Revelation well after 81 AD. Preterist use those dates in an effort to support their preterist view, which is a distortion of the word of God.

In case you don't know what the preterist view is, full preterism believes that Revelation as being a symbolic picture of first-century conflicts, not a description of what will occur in the end times. And because of this, they have to allegorize or symbolize the events of the book of Revelation. They believe that the prophesies concerning end-times have been fulfilled in the past in relation to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. All I can say is that, they are in for rude awakening when they see the literal fulfillment of those prophesies begin to take place.

The next event to take place will be the gathering of the church, which will be followed by that ruler, the antichrist, who will establish his seven year covenant with Israel and from there the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place, leading right up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

 

[oldhermit]

I am impressed by your method of deduction when dating Revelation but not convinced. The main problem is that all the notable ''Church Fathers'' date it at the time of Domitian who died in 96AD and did persecute the Church. Most people who date the book from the reign of Nero are Preterists who believe that everything in Revelation happened before 70AD. If it was written under Nero one question to answer is why he had Peter and Paul executed and only sent John into exile ?

That is a question worthy of an answer but it will have to wait until this afternoon.

 

[Muzungu256]

While it is true that the letters were written to the literal churches mentioned of that time, they were also written to the entire church period from that time until the end of the church period. The letters are meant for individual believers throughout the entire church period to examine ourselves in light of the rebukes and warnings in those letters.

In Rev.3:10, because of patient endurance, He promises to keep them/us out of the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those on the face of the earth.

That "time of trial" is another designation for "the day of the Lord" which has yet to take place. It will be neither be a hour nor a day in length, but is referring to the time period when God will pour out His wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Therefore, the promise is to those believers who would be present just prior to God's wrath. And the way in which the Lord will keep His promise to keep us "out of" that hour of trial, will be by His appearing and the gathering of the church, dead and living, at the resurrection and to take the entire group back to the Father's house in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-17.

Furthermore, the dates given in a previous post regarding the seven churches is incorrect. John was exiled to the isle of Patmos during the reign of Domitian who reigned from 81 AD to 96 AD, which would put the writing of Revelation well after 81 AD. Preterist use those dates in an effort to support their preterist view, which is a distortion of the word of God.

In case you don't know what the preterist view is, full preterism believes that Revelation as being a symbolic picture of first-century conflicts, not a description of what will occur in the end times. And because of this, they have to allegorize or symbolize the events of the book of Revelation. They believe that the prophesies concerning end-times have been fulfilled in the past in relation to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. All I can say is that, they are in for rude awakening when they see the literal fulfillment of those prophesies begin to take place.

The next event to take place will be the gathering of the church, which will be followed by that ruler, the antichrist, who will establish his seven year covenant with Israel and from there the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will take place, leading right up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

can you think that maybe Jesus came back to destroy the old covenant which was passing away hebrews8:13 by destroying the temple and then john 14:1-3 will be fulfilled later when He comes back and resurrects everyone at the same time like Jesus says in john 5:28-29... many times in the old testament God says i will come down from my holy mountain but He doesnt literally come down its a mention of judgment.

 

[oldhermit]

I am impressed by your method of deduction when dating Revelation but not convinced. The main problem is that all the notable ''Church Fathers'' date it at the time of Domitian who died in 96AD and did persecute the Church. Most people who date the book from the reign of Nero are Preterists who believe that everything in Revelation happened before 70AD. If it was written under Nero one question to answer is why he had Peter and Paul executed and only sent John into exile ?

Ireneaus, Clement of Alexandria, and Eusebius all believed that it was from the late first century but their opinions are all greatly lacking in evidence to support their claims. At any rate, I really could not care less what the so-called "early Church Fathers" thought about the dating of the book. Their opinions all steam from who they BELIEVED was the the intended persecutor of the Church which John mentions. Their opinions then were nothing more than unsubstantiated speculation. The evidence resides within the book itself, not in the opinions or historical figures.

I really do not care what preterists believe or do not believe. I personally think some of their arguments are sound but I also see a lot of problems with some of their arguments. As to why John was sent into exile at a time when Nero typically sentences such men to death to me seems quite obvious. As Paul told Timothy, "I have run my race, I have finished my course..." We can only assume that the same was true of Peter as was foretold by the Lord in John 21:18-19, "Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go.Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God..."

John on the other hand, was preserved for expressed purposes and for an appointed time. John was told in Revelation 10:11 that he "must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings." Now, if Revelation was written in AD 95-96, John would have been more than 90 years old and it would have been very unlikely he would have been able to travel to the various "nations and…many kings" and preach. However, with Revelation written in the early 60's AD, John would have been in his mid 60's and at that age, his traveling would have been more feasible. It really does not matter how routinely Nero sentenced Christians to death. He would not be able to kill John unless the Lord allowed him to do so. God is the one who controls human history, not Nero.

 

[oldhermit]

I am impressed by your method of deduction when dating Revelation but not convinced.

I am curious. This seems to suggest the possibility that you may be willing to be convinced. If so, what would it take to convince you?

 

[jb]

Ireneaus, Clement of Alexandria, and Eusebius all believed that it was from the late first century but their opinions are all greatly lacking in evidence to support their claims. At any rate, I really could not care less what the so-called "early Church Fathers" thought about the dating of the book. Their opinions all steam from who they BELIEVED was the the intended persecutor of the Church which John mentions. Their opinions then were nothing more than unsubstantiated speculation. The evidence resides within the book itself, not in the opinions or historical figures.

I really do not care what preterists believe or do not believe. I personally think some of their arguments are sound but I also see a lot of problems with some of their arguments. As to why John was sent into exile at a time when Nero typically sentences such men to death to me seems quite obvious. As Paul told Timothy, "I have run my race, I have finished my course..." We can only assume that the same was true of Peter as was foretold by the Lord in John 21:18-19, "Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go.Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God..."

John on the other hand, was preserved for expressed purposes and for an appointed time. John was told in Revelation 10:11 that he "must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings." Now, if Revelation was written in AD 95-96, John would have been more than 90 years old and it would have been very unlikely he would have been able to travel to the various "nations and…many kings" and preach. However, with Revelation written in the early 60's AD, John would have been in his mid 60's and at that age, his traveling would have been more feasible. It really does not matter how routinely Nero sentenced Christians to death. He would not be able to kill John unless the Lord allowed him to do so. God is the one who controls human history, not Nero.

The KJV uses "before" to translate the Greek preposition "epi" (in Rev 10v11), however, it would be better translated "about" or "concerning", which changes the whole meaning of it!

I suggest you get yourself a good NT Greek lexicon and look it up!

To ignore all the early Church fathers writing on who wrote the Book Of Revelation Of Jesus Christ is like sticking your head in the sand and ignoring vital evidance!

 

[Desertsrose]

Ireneaus, Clement of Alexandria, and Eusebius all believed that it was from the late first century but their opinions are all greatly lacking in evidence to support their claims. At any rate, I really could not care less what the so-called "early Church Fathers" thought about the dating of the book. Their opinions all steam from who they BELIEVED was the the intended persecutor of the Church which John mentions. Their opinions then were nothing more than unsubstantiated speculation. The evidence resides within the book itself, not in the opinions or historical figures.

I really do not care what preterists believe or do not believe. I personally think some of their arguments are sound but I also see a lot of problems with some of their arguments. As to why John was sent into exile at a time when Nero typically sentences such men to death to me seems quite obvious. As Paul told Timothy, "I have run my race, I have finished my course..." We can only assume that the same was true of Peter as was foretold by the Lord in John 21:18-19, "Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go.Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God..."

John on the other hand, was preserved for expressed purposes and for an appointed time. John was told in Revelation 10:11 that he "must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings." Now, if Revelation was written in AD 95-96, John would have been more than 90 years old and it would have been very unlikely he would have been able to travel to the various "nations and…many kings" and preach. However, with Revelation written in the early 60's AD, John would have been in his mid 60's and at that age, his traveling would have been more feasible. It really does not matter how routinely Nero sentenced Christians to death. He would not be able to kill John unless the Lord allowed him to do so. God is the one who controls human history, not Nero.

Hi Oldhermit,

For what it's worth, here's what John McArthur believes.

Revelation was written in the last decade of the first century (ca. A.D. 94–96), near the end of Emperor Domitian’s reign (A.D. 81–96). Although some date it during Nero’s reign (A.D. 54–68), their arguments are unconvincing and conflict with the view of the early church. Writing in the second century, Irenaeus declared that Revelation had been written toward
the end of Domitian’s reign.

Later writers, such as Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Victorinus (who wrote one of the earliest commentaries on Revelation), Eusebius, and Jerome affirm the Domitian date.

The spiritual decline of the 7 churches (chaps. 2,3) also argues for the later date. Those churches were strong and spiritually healthy in the mid-60s, when Paul last ministered in Asia Minor. The brief time between Paul’s ministry there and the end of Nero’s reign was too short for such a decline to have occurred. The longer time gap also explains the rise of the heretical sect known as the Nicolaitans (2:6,15), who are not mentioned in Paul’s letters, not even to one or more of these same churches (Ephesians). Finally, dating Revelation during Nero’s reign does not allow time for John’s ministry in Asia Minor to reach the point at which the authorities would have felt the need to exile him.

 

[oldhermit]

The KJV uses "before" to translate the Greek preposition "epi" (in Rev 10v11), however, it would be better translated "about" or "concerning", which changes the whole meaning of it!

I suggest you get yourself a good NT Greek lexicon and look it up!

To ignore all the early Church fathers writing on who wrote the Book Of Revelation Of Jesus Christ is like sticking your head in the sand and ignoring vital evidance!

Actually, how ἐπὶ is translated depends on a number of factors, not the least of which is case. I generally consult the Greek text on almost any verse but this time I did not. At the time, I was using the NKJV and should have known better than to trust that text too far. I think you are correct on this point. Since it is not used with the genitive of a person it cannot be properly rendered as 'before.' It could be rendered as 'to' but the best rendering of ἐπὶ in this verse is probably 'concerning' or 'about', which indeed makes a big difference.

 

[oldhermit]

Hi Oldhermit,

For what it's worth, here's what John McArthur believes.

Revelation was written in the last decade of the first century (ca. A.D. 94–96), near the end of Emperor Domitian’s reign (A.D. 81–96). Although some date it during Nero’s reign (A.D. 54–68), their arguments are unconvincing and conflict with the view of the early church. Writing in the second century, Irenaeus declared that Revelation had been written toward
the end of Domitian’s reign.

Later writers, such as Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Victorinus (who wrote one of the earliest commentaries on Revelation), Eusebius, and Jerome affirm the Domitian date.

On this point, I am curious as to what evidence McArthur offers in favor of the late date. As to Clement, Origin, Victorinus, Jerome, and Eusebius, all they were doing was relying on what was advocated by Ireanaeus with no evidence in support.

"To the seven churches that are in Asia" seems to represent the total number of churches existing in Asia at the time of the revelation. Notice, John does not say to seven of the churches in Asia but, to THE seven churches in Asia. This does not include all of greater Asia but, only a small Roman province on the west coast of Asia Minor of which Ephesus was the capitol. This is numerically and geographically limiting.

This is an exclusive audience. We know there were more churches scattered throughout the world other than just these seven churches, so why does John address this revelation only to them? Because they are the ones who were to be directly affected by the events that were about to be revealed.