A WIN FOR ARMENIANISM: God gave mankind freewill

[Muzungu256]

i read a lot of augustine's writings he didn't deny free will but the teaching is that our will is bound by sin therefore unless God regenerates we will always choose according to the flesh since our spirit isnt quickened...............................

 

[Stephen63]

I don't think what we do is "free will", but "free choice".

Jesus said no man can serve two masters, showing us we will follow one or the other. We don't have free will to go another direction of our own making.

Joshua said "choose you this day WHO YOU WILL SERVE."

Choice, yes; free not to serve, no.

 

[Calmador]

I'm a tad preoccupied with life. But, my focus on Adam and eve, as a I suspected has shown to be fruitful for Arminianism so far.

One of my responses , that I've thought of giving to one of the posts in this thread or Calvinists in general... a thought I've had is that God necessarily would have to have practiced previneint grace in the case of Adam and Eve. As Calvinism text claims... God allowed Adam and Eve the liberty to choose right and wrong according to their will. This is Arminian prevenient grace admitted by Calvinism text. Arminian or Calvinist... we all accept previnient grace has happened. Arminians by default do believe in this... Calvinists, if they rely on Calvinism text.. or at least what authentic Calvinism is... then have to admit God did practice previenant grace for Adam and Eve at least once.

I'll respond to more posts later. Time isn't on my side. I believe I'm figuring this out and it's making me a firmer Arminian and Molonist.

 

[Calmador]

There are no infinite amount of possibilities if you agree that God knew all things from the beginning, even in pre-creation. That, by definition, means everything was predetermined, even our choices. God knew beforehand what we would choose and created everything anyway. Everyone has to wrestle with this fact one way or another, or else move into open theism or Molinism which has been stated. Both attack the nature of God. Open theism is straight up blasphemy while Molinism is bordering on it.

If God did not know all things in eternity past, then God is not omniscient, and if he isn't omniscient, he cant be omnipotent, and if he isn't omnipotent, then the outcome of all things can't be sure. Do you see the issue here? Everything was created with one possible outcome. The crucifixion for example could not have taken place at any other time in history. It happened when it was supposed to. The same with everything else.

If God reacts based on what we choose, then nothing is certain. Prophecy could fail. The outcome of all things would be a toss up. Even if you take the position that God knows an infinite number of outcomes (I'd need scripture for that by the way), then you still have to succumb to the fact that God knew in totality which path mankind would take, down to every minute decision each and every person makes before the decree of creation itself, or else make a claim that God did not know the outcome until later, or not at all.

Whether you are Arminian or Reformed, you cannot get around the fact that all things were predetermined to happen in eternity past. Everything is set in stone. There is a set number of people who will be saved. There is a set number of people who won't be saved, whether by man's choice, or by God's, but ultimately by God's either way because he predetermined all things before creation.

You see, there is a compatibility between man's fallen will and God's sovereign will. God knew the outcome from eternity but created us anyway. We were given free choice and we choose, but ultimately, God works all things together for his own purposes and ends. You see this compatibility with Joseph and his brothers. Joseph tells his brothers what you intended for evil, God intended for good. There was intent with both man and God, but God is sovereign, even over man's will, so his purpose prevailed. The Assyrian king, another example, was used as an instrument of God's wrath and God turned around and judged him for the intent that was already in his heart. So you see that there was intent on the King's part, but God already had a purpose that prevailed. The crucifixion itself. Intent on mans' part that was evil, but God had predetermined to use that evil intent for good, that being the redemption of the elect through the death of his Son. Intent on both man's part, and Gods, but God's will was victorious and always will be because he has predetermined it to be so.

This is why we know "that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."

Everything has meaning and purpose, even the evil man commits.

If there's an infinite God, it follows that there is infinite amount of possibilities. I think it's self-evident. All the possibilities of life forms and all the details of our world itself is the best evidence for this statement.

Just because God determines anything does not mean that possibilities do not exist. The fact that I can move my arm in many directions is good enough evidence. God could have determined how the world would go, one possibility. But, God made the world flexible enough for various possibilities like me being able to move my arm in different places. God determined when and how I'd move my arm... but, there's more than one possible way for me to move my arm.

Also, the bible does pose questions... that are "if" questions. Psalm 81:13 "If my people would only listen to me, if Israel would only follow my ways." That suggests possibilities too.

Considering God's power alone, God could have made a world full of plants and animals only. This is possible. God could have made a world full of angels, not men. I think this is common sense.

If God has a plan... then he had a criteria. Plans don't just happen randomly. Plans have a mind behind it and God could have plausibly made a world where all that happened, happened in such a way where mankind would have the best possible chance at getting saved. The God of the bible wants save the whole world. Mankind refuses the gracious gift. God's will was to let mankind decide to choose to love God or not.

I don't see how Molinism does any wrong to God's nature. Molinism seems to just make explicit what God knows.... everything. God would know all the possibilities of mankind's choices. For example, if someone gave you a choice... between pizza and mexican food... God would know what you would choose. There's nothing wrong with God knowing all the possible choices you could make.

God knows everything in eternity past and eternity future.

Considering that Jesus willingly limited his God like powers (Matthew 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.) you'd think power wouldn't be such a big issue. It's crystal CLEAR that God can be God, Jesus, while limited his own power. Regardless, Molinism does not claim that God is learning or limiting his power. If anything Molinism seems to show God practicing his power.

God did not react. He chose.

God looked into himself, his own character, his heart to love as many, to save as many possible. That's who God is. He is a God that is not pleased with the death of the wicked.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them: ‘As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?’

That's such an odd dichotomy. That's the confusion of every Calvinist I ever met. You and it seems all Calvinists don't see that it is possible for mankind to have libertarian freedom, yet God know the outcome of our choices... and God know how to pursued us, influence in such a way that does not overpower our free will. That is possible. I'm not saying God does not know. I've been telling everyone in this thread.. time and time again... God knows. Just because someone can make a decision, any decision, does not mean God does not know that decision. This is not a problem.

Yes, every Arminian understands predestination. Yes, I believe in predestination. But, predestination does not equal God causing anything. The Calvinist instantly believes that God caused everything. He caused certain things... not evil. Humans and angels caused evil. God foreknew our bad decisions. However, God's power being so influential makes it that even our evil decisions are used for good. He does not determine our evil decisions. He uses even our evil decisions for good. Genesis 50:20 "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." It's clear. Two intentions... our's is evil. God's intention is good. It was not God's good intention to cause evil. He merely uses our evil intentions and actions.

Again, you and many Calvinists imply causing.. or God determining EVERYTHING but, don't recognize that God can control even those beings who have a free will.

First moves: God decided to make mankind, God decided to save mankind

^^^ Without these moves, mankind has no chance... zero chance.

He was not reacting. He made the choice. He could've chosen not to save. But, he chose give the world a chance to be saved (How much of the world? It doesn't matter. The world has always had one way to be saved, become a Jew... or as of today, accept Jesus. Ether way, there was a way) Why? Because he's a God that's willing to do everything he can to save the world. Scripture says it clear. Calvinists read in general call... effectual call.... part of the world... I think that's distortion and for the sake of Calvinism... Calvinists will continue to read in these ideas. Again, God did not react. He acted from who he is. Even Calvinists understand this... ask a Calvinist why he saved? Because he is a God of mercy... because he chose to love a few. In Arminianism, God chose to love all and love them all and reached out to everyone... invited, not forced.

Calvinism = God caused evil

Arminianism = A God who decided to save, men who had free will, give by God first, to choose salvation.

 

[Calmador]

Yeah, you believe in arminianism not armenianism, as for free will, the bible clearly says we were dead in sin and trespasses, what free will would such a creature have? It has a will but it's bound by it's sinful and evil nature.

The same free-will that God gave Adam and Eve.

Yes, mankind is bound to sin. But, that does not mean God does not liberate mankind. As Romans 1 says... the invisible qualities of God are in the things designed so mankind has no excuse. In Calvinism, mankind has an excuse. Mankind can say God caused me to sin.

You can't expect a robot who is inclined to do something with judgement. Even mankind understands this... I don't blame my printer for not being able to play music. Printers can only do one thing... print. The printer won't play music. I hold a printer responsible for printing.

God can't hold men responsible for sin if all they can do is sin and not follow God.

 

[Calmador]

Part of the problem here is "how do you define 'free will'"? And where in the Bible does it mention "free will" as in saying we have "free will"? What we have is a sin nature that is opposed to God that only the Holy Spirit can affect. God gives us the ability to make choices but these choices are not "free will".

The argument should not be "Arminianism vs. Calvanism or Methodist vs. Baptist" or any such labels we put on this argument. The argument should be "Biblical vs. Non Biblical". I dont care which "road of theology" you travel but whether it is Biblical or not. There are those in every denomination who do not follow Biblical truth in one way or another.

Not even God has "free will" because God cannot do anything that is against His nature. If God had this so called "free will" then we could not trust anything He has given us because He could change it in an instant because He has "free will" to do so. Due to the unchanging nature of God "free will" does not exist.

Leviticus clearly speaks of free willed offerings. Leviticus 22:23 You may, however, present as a freewill offering an ox or a sheep that is deformed or stunted, but it will not be accepted in fulfillment of a vow.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 "This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes."

God made mankind with an inclination for good.

Adam was the son of God. Adam was born of Spirit. He did not need to be reborn. There was no sin in him and he was innocent and upright. Yet, because of his God given freedom Adam had the possible choice of him choosing evil.

I'm not sure about God having free will. I believe he does have free-will and merely chooses goodness, all the time. However, if mankind does not have freewill than we are nothing more than robots. Like a printer... all we can do is print. And for the owner to punish a printer for not producing music would make the owner crazy, stupid, or at worst evil.

 

[Calmador]

It doesn't look like free will to me.


Tell a child that they can play with everything in the room except your sunglasses. They must not touch your sunglasses. Then, go take care of something outside that room for a few minutes.

You could pretty much start the stopwatch for a countdown of the certainty of what will happen next.


What is really intriguing to me is that GOD said it. But they disobeyed anyway.


Its a genius plan if you can step back and look at it. People tend to not want what they already have. They want what they don't have or can't have. So Gods plan was to make it so people didn't have Himself so they in turn would want Him and understand the consequence of not having Him.


The real question to ask is "Did Adam and Eve surprise God in the garden by eating of the TOK"? No, of course not. God could have put an angel or several angels around it to guard it from them. But He didn't. Because God has a Plan.

God having a plan doesn't tell you anything or justify Calvinism.

About children, I could tell 10 American children to please speak French. The American children don't know how or where to begin. Then I proceed to teach 2 American children to speak French.

I ask again, I demand with righteous anger... speak French. Two of the kids speak French. I tell them good job. Your good kids. To the rest of the kids, I take out a gun and I shoot them and tell them that they are bad for not speaking French.

This is not the God of the bible. Do you agree?

 

[Calmador]

Well if that were true it wouldn't worry me. But in fact it does not. God knew that man would sin. It was only a question of time.



But it ignores the fact of God's sovereignty. Given the fact that a slave to sin could not repent, it was crucial.



It is a FACT. It doesn't support either side.



NO since man sinned he could no longer choose.



But the Bible does not support prevenient grace. In fact it never speaks of freewill. Man is bound by sin. He needs to be delivered from it. And God alone can do it.



He never mentions the free will of mankind. That was lost at the fall.



There is no Bible evidence of prevenient grace. It is a cop out. Paul says He has mercy on whom He will, and whom He will He hardens,



But never mentions it? LOL



Mankind never had free will. Adam lost it.




Show me one verse that says mankind has freewill.



well?



He could have been, but He wasn't. All mankind never had free will.

I don't care if Calvin denies it or not. God is always sovereign. But mankind never had free will as the Bible makes clear,.



I wouldn't know. LOL. I don't follow Calvin or anyone else. I follow the Scriptures.



????


Just Adam and Eve, until they fell. The rest of mankind never had freewill.




But they didn't.




well it might have done if it were true.. However, whilst mankind could choose wrong, they could never choose right for any length of time. It required God's sovereignty to remedy the situation,

If you don't agree with Calvinism, then you may even be worse. Are you a hyper Calvinist?

Do you think murder is okay... theft? evil is okay? As long as God himself did it? Do you believe might makes right? Does authority make right?

 

[Calmador]

To answer this question of "free will", for God or man, is also to pose other questions. Is man capable of choosing God without the intervention of the Holy Spirit? Can man choose to follow God completely on his own? And then also can God do anything that is opposed to His nature? If you can answer "yes" to any of these questions then also support it by Scripture.

I'd answer by saying no. Mankind can not choose God without God himself helping him.

Arminians believe in previniant grace. This means God enables us to choose him. In other words, God empowers mankind to be capable of choosing and loving God.

Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

^^^ This sums up what I believe nicely.

One of the things I see often mistaken is the difference between free will and power. God I believe has both... but an infinite amount more power than man. Man only has free will and limited power.

Both God and mankind have free will... but no matter what, God will always be able to overpower mankind. He is in control.

 

[Calmador]

The problem of "free will" is that it is never mentioned in Scripture. If man does have "free will" then it also means that God is not Sovereign because man could do things that God would not know about. We could make choices outside the realm of the omniscience of God which would also say that God is not omniscient.

That doesn't make sense? But, just because you have freewill doesn't mean you make choices outside of the omniscience of God? Why would you say that?

 

[trofimus]

That doesn't make sense? But, just because you have freewill doesn't mean you make choices outside of the omniscience of God? Why would you say that?

Logically: If something cannot be determined before it happens, it cannot be known before it happens.

Omniscience requires the future to be certain.

 

[Calmador]

Logically: If something cannot be determined before it happens, it cannot be known before it happens.

Omniscience requires the future to be certain.

I don't see how that's logical. A free will decision can be foreseen and be predestined. The future can be certain with God creating such a world where his plan would happen.

For example, a father that knows his son very well... hangs out with a friend and then he says , " Look my son is about to do that thing I've been telling you about." And like a prophet.. The dad is right. His son does that one thing. Why does the dad know what his son will do something? Because the father knows the son so well as a person. He can predict what his son will do because of dad's past experience with his son. If a human father can do this... how much more God who knows us so well, better than anyone else could ever know us. God knows the future as well so it's no problem for God to know what our free willed choices would be. He can make certain what will happen.

 

[Rockrz]

Arminius was a theologian. Armenia is a country near Russia.

Well, neither one of them are in God's Word...

And, don't forget the rock me Amadeus guy

 

[SovereignGrace]

Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.[Galatians 4:8-11]

Paul is addressing the Galatian church telling them that when they were in the world, they were enslaved to those gods, IE Satan. When Paul first came to them, they welcome him joyfully. But it appears some false teachers came in and was telling them somethings that were contrary to Paul's original teachings and it seems they turned on him. He asked them why were they seeking to go back to being slaves to sin.

So, when ppl are in the world, they are slaves to sin. That was what Paul stated here in Galatians 4, also in Romans 6, and Jesus stated such in Matthew 6:24.

Free will does not exist. And yes, I am what they call a compatibilist.

 

[trofimus]

I don't see how that's logical. A free will decision can be foreseen and be predestined. The future can be certain with God creating such a world where his plan would happen.

For example, a father that knows his son very well... hangs out with a friend and then he says , " Look my son is about to do that thing I've been telling you about." And like a prophet.. The dad is right. His son does that one thing. Why does the dad know what his son will do something? Because the father knows the son so well as a person. He can predict what his son will do because of dad's past experience with his son. If a human father can do this... how much more God who knows us so well, better than anyone else could ever know us. God knows the future as well so it's no problem for God to know what our free willed choices would be. He can make certain what will happen.

If God know everything what will happen, from the smallest to the biggest event, the future is certain and there is no accidentality in it.

You father is making good guesses only. God knows perfectly.

 

[Calmador]

If God know everything what will happen, from the smallest to the biggest event, the future is certain and there is no accidentality in it.

You father is making good guesses only. God knows perfectly.

Yes, that's what I've been saying every time I ever talked to a Calivinist yet that doesn't stick. Yes, God knows perfectly what our free-willed choices will be.

The father example was just an example. The example shows that a mere man can foreknew the choices of a son... How much more God who not only knows the past, everything about you, but also the future?

Destiny and free-will are not incompatible. Whatever your free-will choices are... that is your destined free-willed choices. Listen carefully now, THIS DOES NOT MEAN man has power to overcome God. This does not mean that man can choose his way into leading God. This just means he can choose anything. Man can so foolishly choose to fight God... but he'll never have the power to defeat him or overpower God's plans.

There's a difference between power and free-will. Having the free-will to choose something does not mean it'll be done. It is in God's plans to allow mankind to choose to love God. It's crystal clearly implied whenever God or a prophet invites mankind.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The will is not free, it is either a slave to the devil or the Christ.

 

[trofimus]

Yes, that's what I've been saying every time I ever talked to a Calivinist yet that doesn't stick. Yes, God knows perfectly what our free-willed choices will be.

The father example was just an example. The example shows that a mere man can foreknew the choices of a son... How much more God who not only knows the past, everything about you, but also the future?

Destiny and free-will are not incompatible. Whatever your free-will choices are... that is your destined free-willed choices. Listen carefully now, THIS DOES NOT MEAN man has power to overcome God. This does not mean that man can choose his way into leading God. This just means he can choose anything. Man can so foolishly choose to fight God... but he'll never have the power to defeat him or overpower God's plans.

There's a difference between power and free-will. Having the free-will to choose something does not mean it'll be done. It is in God's plans to allow mankind to choose to love God. It's crystal clearly implied whenever God or a prophet invites mankind.

I do not say that predestination and free will are incompatible (when we properly define free will).

I did say that the future is certain to happen in the exact way God predestined it. His omniscience is not any kind of "good guess" about what you will do, it is a certainity of events.

When God knew before the creation of the universe that your hair will fall from your head today, it will certainly happen.

But also your will was known. So it is also certain you will sin today or that you will pray today.

 

[Calmador]

The will is not free, it is either a slave to the devil or the Christ.

If the will is not free then you have to accept that God does evil.

The will is liberated. If you study Adam and Eve you can see the following:

1. God made mankind (Adam and Eve) upright. Ecclesiastes 7:29 "This only have I found: God created mankind upright, but they have gone in search of many schemes."

2. God calls Adam and Eve, and the rest of His creation "very good." Genesis 1:31 "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day."

3. Sin separates mankind from God so it's reasonable to say that Adam and Eve, mankind, was walking with God. Mankind and God had a union or fellowship of some sort because mankind was not separated from God. Isaiah 59:2 "But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear."

In God's very good creation... Man was upright. It is reasonable to say that mankind's nature was good, yet still chose evil. Not to mention that Romans speaks of the law that is written in mankind's heart.

The conclusion is that Calvinism is does not happen here. God did not leave mankind hopeless. God made mankind good. This doesn't follow Calvinistic framework of thought. This is why previniant grace which liberates from the slavary of sin is not at odds of God's will. We can see in the Garden of Eden where God created... Calvinism was not the framework, Arminianism or perhaps another framework such as Molinism was at work.

God can be sovereign while Adam and Eve were by nature good and had free-will.

 

[Calmador]

I do not say that predestination and free will are incompatible (when we properly define free will).

I did say that the future is certain to happen in the exact way God predestined it. His omniscience is not any kind of "good guess" about what you will do, it is a certainity of events.

When God knew before the creation of the universe that your hair will fall from your head today, it will certainly happen.

But also your will was known. So it is also certain you will sin today or that you will pray today.

Yeah, I did not say God made good guesses. The father example did have good guesses. The father example was just to help you understand where I was coming from.

Yes, when it comes to God, he knows... and does not guess. Just like he could merely know your free-willed decisions.

I'll get to the point. Here's the difference between Arminians or non-Calvinists. We believe God could know everything, but not necessarily determine everything... or make certain everything will happen... and I mean EVERYTHING. I'm speaking of evil.

This will settle our differences. Do you or do you not believe God determined... CAUSED evil?

If you say no, then he really did not cause or determine EVERYTHING ... right?