Benefits of Speaking, Praying, and Singing in Tongues

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Dec 21, 2012
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Does it matter who is claiming the false gifts? A lie is a lie no matter which group speaks it? The question that is danced around is still the same, should claims of physical supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit be either ignored, accepted or challenged?
If the gifts are gained by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation or having experienced this phenomenon apart from salvation in receiving this gift of tongue.....which never comes with interpretation, then you have to expose that as not of Him at all.

2 Thessalonians 2:[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:[SUP] 14 [/SUP]Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.[SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

That scripture above reproves that tongue gained by apostasy as not of Him.

That was said as a reminder to the believers when they had received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth at the hearing of the gospel thus you cannot receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation and thus that tongue is not of Him. That is why that tongue does not come with interpretation but is vain and profane babbling.

God permitted the strong delusion to occur because saved believers believed the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation. Their mentality is to open themselves up to receiving that other spirit after a sign and so we see this iniquity that Paul was exposing earlier.

2 Thessalonians 2:[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,....[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.........[SUP]9 [/SUP]Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,[SUP] 10 [/SUP]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.[SUP] 11 [/SUP]And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:[SUP]12 [/SUP]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;[SUP]2 [/SUP]Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

If you believe we are living in the latter days, where is this falling away from the faith of saved believers giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils? Where is it unless this preaching of receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation after a sign of tongues is the very falling away from the faith spoken of by Paul?

That is why he reminded believers when they had received the sanctification of the Spirit and that was when they were saved at the calling of the gospel when they believed in the Truth.

So unless you address what Paul was talking about in how it cannot be applied to that phenomenon, this discussion is at an impasse.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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So tongues are not a physical supernatural ability. Then what are they?
Tongues is a sign to the rebelious who do not beleive prophecy,(the word of God). The misundersanding comes from not seperating the sign of rebelion called, tongues from the gift called, prophecy.

I would suggusst studying to find the difference seeing the father of lies would have it that men belive it is all one and the same thing.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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Services Miknik as I was using it...church services. Paul did design the order for the Corinthians. I think most were just fellowships in homes.

Offices are the same. It hasn't changed. Prophets, Apostles, Teachers, Evangelists, and Pastors.

Now, most are just bible studies which we need. But, we also need Holy Spirit to move in our midst. And we need to increase within...otherwise we are just natural men with knowledge in our head. Become what He has given us...Spiritual men and women.

Sorry but is truth.
We again we need to increase within?
then rest so that HE can do HIS WORK by HIS SPIRIT in whom HE chooses to do it and those who were gifted with insight and siscernment and knowledge should be able to correct when they see error present itself ( in the orderly worship) within the ZBOXY
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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So a physical supernatural event is deemed real if the proper answer is given to these questions?
A physical supernatural event is deemed of GOD if the right answers are given

yes
of course
thats why we test the spirits
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Suggestion. Speak your favorite scripture in a your favorite language. If it is interpreted correctly, or no one attempts to interpret it, the Holy Spirit is the one interpreting the spoken tongues. If it is interpreted incorrectly, flee the tongues venue.

Its spoken prophecy a distinction must be made Tongues are a sign to the rebellion who believe not scripture.

It is never speaking in a language unknown to the speaker. It’s the hearing of faith that come from hearing the word of God .Not the speaking of faith the unseen coming from the imaginations of creature.

Unknown to the hearer is the correct way to understand the work of God as he works to interpret his word (prophecy) .He does the interpreting of His word….prophecy

If either the one spoken to does not understand than the person performing the speaking would not understand the other one and there would be no edification coming from God to build up the church. Gifts are not made to edify one self causing false pride. And not as evidence a person has the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God

That man should remain silent until another person was given a revelation from God so that two could have a real conversation (gospel)

The gift was still in effect while God was still brining new revelations. New prophecy has ceased and along with it prophecy for over two thousand years. A tongue remains a sign against those who believe not prophecy, the spoken language

When God was still bringing new prophecy which could be added to His book of prophecy that was a sign to those who believed not prophecy…. again it was sign against them. Christ said it is an evil generation (the generation of Adam as in natural man that does seek after signs

How exactly would one do this since there is no direct correlation between tongues-speech and real language?? You can't 'translate' English (or whatever language you speak) into T-speech any more than you can take a 'word' of T-speech and give a direct 'translation' of it in English.
Yes it is God who does the transltion from one language to the other and vice versa.... when two are having a conversation.All of the gifts are two fold in respect to one mutual faith (Christ's) that comes from hearing God.

Or do you mean speak in in a real foreign language you happen to know no one there speaks and see what happens??
Good question

1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him "that speaketh" a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
Conversations usualy take two understanding each other or else someone is speaking into the air or has a bluetooth device.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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We again. we need to increase within?
then rest so that HE can do HIS WORK by HIS SPIRIT in whom HE chooses to do it and those who were gifted with insight and discernment and knowledge should be able to correct when they see error present itself ( in the orderly worship) within the BODY
Sorry for all those typos
I corrected them above
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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A physical supernatural event is deemed of GOD if the right answers are given

yes
of course
thats why we test the spirits
So it someone answers all your questions correctly then the claim is valid and of God? You would accept a person's claim of the ability to raise the dead by how he answers your questions?
 
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wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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I have to disagree with some of your points because surely you do not speak for aLL PENTECOSTALS. 2. I think it is best to stay with the topic and not talk about denominations one agree with or not. I can tell you that there are differences from southern baptist and First baptist . that is not the point . IN the theological doctrine of Pentecostals aka four sq, aog , cogic, all but oness upc and apostolic. hold to the doctrine of the Southern baptist. it is in the gift of the Holy Spirit were they differ.
The extra experience I do not know if that would be correct but there is the Empowering of the Holy Spirit which happen to those who were saved already those in Acts 2 were saved already which happen in the Gospel of John when the Risen Lord Breathed on them. " receive the Holy Spirit " JOhn 20:22 .

in context to baptism we do see two one of the Spirit and one in water that is what scripture tells us.

Now you ask a very good question in ref to 1907 but I can tell you in my studies I can show you in church history centuries where the gifts of the Holy Spirit were very well documented . And down through the ages the empowering of the Holy Spirit is seen .

again you ask ?" How can people which claim to have a special anointing with the Holy Spirit can spread false teachings, like the Oneness ore the many charismatics teachings about wealth and health and so one."

Money, power, and FYI the devil is in the pulpit some places you know that right?
Just because there are those who abuse the gifts and are teaching false doctrine or fleecing the church STILL doesn't change the context of God word or what the Holy Spirit will do for each saved believer and does do today.

Well of course I agree that we can find that power and money dominates in all denominations.
What means FYI ?


But as this we can find in all denomiations, we should also find the spirituell gifts in all denominations. I really can not believe that if the Holy Spirit there he works different according the denomination doctrine.


Maby you wonder why i alsway come back to the begin of the pentecostal movement. You are right, we can find speaking in tongues in history special till the 6th century. But in those times was also to find a big movement called montanism which was a heretic group, but practiced prophecie and speaking in tongues. Tertullian later joined this group.
But non of the so called churchfathers practised speaking in tongues ore taught it.


Since the reformation time when the bible translations (KJV, Luther and so on) take place, the bible became readable for all people and not only for the RCC priest. If the speaking in tongues was a gift for all times why then the Holy Spirit dont led the reformators to this view and opened while translation their eyes for this. Instead he opend their eyes forthe important things concern faith.
Till the biblical canon was finished in the 4th century, the most churches had not all scripture/bible for to read. Today every single person has the possibility to read the bible.


Imagine a believer in Corinth in the year 54 ore 55 when he received the 1. letter from Paul.
In this time was not written the book of acts (60-62), Romans (56 from corinth), gospel of John (earliest 80)


That means he was not able to create a doctrine which says that there is there a second baptism with the Holy Spirit and as sign for that speaking in tongues. Because forthisto create youmust have more information from the scripture then 1. Cor. gives.


Romans, the letter which content the most information about christian Life in no single sentence mentioned the gift of speaking in tongues. If this gift is realy so important for an believer, then why he did not mentioned it. In spite of that Paul wrote this letter in Corinth?


The doctrine which Parham and Seymore create was never taught before in churchhistory and not in the bible. And before they made this expieriences the gift of healing, prophecie and speaking in tongues were practised in several cults, like Mormons, New apostolic chatholic church, Irvingians.


Today around 117 years gone and many different pentecostal branches were build worldwide- But they all are going back to Parham an Seymore and the events in Azusa Street.
But still exactly this teaching is not found in the apostolic time churches!
And thats why it is not possible to argue alone from the knowledge what the christians in the time of 1. Corinthians had.
Because the explaining from Parham and Seymore why we have the sign gifts today is an different then to the apostolic time. They combined it with an special expierience with the Holy Spirit. And this we find not in the teachings of the NT!


Thats why 1909 in germany the most leading denominatians saw in this movement a Spirit from down. And not the Holy Spirit.


By the way the Lord still doing miracles in this world, but the most time with the purpose to bring non believers to Christ and not for to give christians a handsome life.


This doctrine of speaking in tongues created splitting for christianity since it came up in 1900. I cant see any benefits of it for the body of Christ!

It is not my goal to judge anybody. This is only what I recognize. I am not grew up in a pentecostal church. So maby you think I look only from my point as non pentecostal. But I would say If soembody would consider the word of God and the way how something was raises up and presentet to the world could agree with me.
The Lord is ueseing all who follow him, and thats why he is acting and blessing us in spite of our mistakes. There is non denomination which is 100% right in their doctrine and teachings!
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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So it someone answers all your questions correctly then the claim is valid and of God? You would accept a person's claim of the ability to raise the dead by how he answers your questions?
Who needs the signs?
Speaking to that person in a back and forth discussion about THE GOSPEL
will reveal the spirit at work in the person regardless of any sign(s)
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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Who needs the signs?
Speaking to that person in a back and forth discussion about THE GOSPEL
will reveal the spirit at work in the person regardless of any sign(s)
For the record.

If a person came to you and claims to have the god given ability to raise the dead, you would accept his claim as true by virtue of his answers to your questions?

And your answer is yes?
 
Dec 21, 2012
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For the record.

If a person came to you and claims to have the god given ability to raise the dead, you would accept his claim as true by virtue of his answers to your questions?

And your answer is yes?
A believer claiming to do miracles and God actually performing them are 2 different things.

Is the believer actually doing it or is it the Lord Jesus Christ?

By your example, the believer is a false prophet because he gives himself the credit and the glory for what can only happen by God's hand. Indeed, coming to someone and claiming they have the God given ability to raise the dead is NOT talking about Jesus Christ at all, but seeking the spotlight by talking about himself and what he can do as a God given ability to do.

Any believer can be a false prophet by saying nine truths and then say a lie. That is why we are to correct one another in Christ's love, and if they refuse to repent, excommunicate or withdraw BUT to admonish them as brothers & not enemies.

So any believer can be speaking truth and then be led astray by a supernatural phenomenon, and know it not, because they fit their experience into the scripture at the expense of ignoring the rest of scripture that exposes that as not of Him at all.

A believer can come and claim he has the God given ability to part the Atlantic Ocean and walk from USA to Europe, but by that admission, you should already know he is not serving the Lord that way to not even bother asking him to prove it.

Just as Jesus addresses those that can cast our devils in His name, prophesy in His name, and doing wonderful works in His name, but He denies ever knowing them because they were working iniquity that denies Him. Matthew 7:21-23
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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For the record.

If a person came to you and claims to have the god given ability to raise the dead, you would accept his claim as true by virtue of his answers to your questions?

And your answer is yes?
nope I wouldn't. If he isn't glorifying "THE TRUTH" I would know just by the casual conversation between us
and I wouldn't have to ask any questions
His words would testify for or against him
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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DJ2

Do you believe in THE ONE and ONLY LORD and SAVIOR?

or, are you waiting for another?
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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Tell me, what would be the benefit of signs or even looking to someone who can perform these signs?
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Signs and wonders are for the release of mankind from spirits that have overtaken. Whether it be demons, sickness, what ever is of the the natural realm.

The Word being preached in power is by Holy Spirit who then does what He wants to do in the people.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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Signs and wonders are for the release of mankind from spirits that have overtaken. Whether it be demons, sickness, what ever is of the the natural realm.

The Word being preached in power is by Holy Spirit who then does what He wants to do in the people.
Thats means the purpose you mentioned is different to the biblical (gospel) purpose of signs and wonders according John 20, 29-30
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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Signs and wonders are for the release of mankind from spirits that have overtaken. Whether it be demons, sickness, what ever is of the the natural realm.

The Word being preached in power is by Holy Spirit who then does what He wants to do in the people.
well...there will be many signs and wonders in the last days
those who look to the signs and wonders during that time (who do not know THE LORD and SAVIOR) will look to the wrong one
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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Please don't try to convince people that they must look to signs and wonders

the GOSPEL has been preached. GOD didn't keep the TRUTH of SALVATION in HIS SON a secret
and Men who are looking for signs and wonders who don't know or don't acknowledge THE TRUTH of THE GOSPEL of THE CROSS of CHRIST, (which is the hidden WISDOM of GOD made known to all men) will certainly be willing to flock to "another way/another christ" who can't promise anything but death
 
Dec 21, 2012
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Are tongues not a physical supernatural gift of the Holy Spirit? If so, should those who claim to have this ability be challenged? Yes or No.
Yes, because there has been a supernatural tongue in the world before Pentecost which is nothing but vain and profane babbling which can be found in the occult and other world's religions whereas God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people.

And when this tongue is gained by apostasy for saved believers to seek after by receiving what they believe is the Holy Spirit coming over them apart from salvation for a sign of that vain & profane babbling, it will NEVER be His gift of tongues because tongues were to serve as a sign to unbelievers NOT to believers. 1 Corinthians 14:20-22