An Introduction to the Doctrines of Grace: Limited Atonement

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Dec 28, 2016
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If you read how marriages went on back in the OT days, it is way different than how we westerners do it. The prospective groom would go to the father and the father would then make out a contract, and once that contract was fulfilled, the father's daughter became the prospective groom's bride. The contract for the bride was made betwixt the bride's father and the prospective groom. The bride had no part in the deal, only to go when the father told her to.

So, the bride went as she was told. We go as we are told. Its the same principle.
Western culture, political correctness, feminism, "equal rights" have blurred the ability of said to see God's truth.

He did the choosing. Scripture teaches contrary to the choosing being on man's part; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:1ff; Romans 9:16; John 1:13; John 6:63; John 3:27 &c.

But they're not going to let Scripture get in the way of the fact that they are boasting in self (that they chose) instead of the fact that it is solely God (1 Corinthians 1:26-31).

So they attempt to make it a co-op, He chose, BUT, so did they in their inability.

Thus God doesn't get all the glory, while they at the same time try to preach salvation is 100% God.

Par Hominis Gloria! :rolleyes:
 

Johnny_B

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Mar 18, 2017
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Marriage is figurative of God’s union with Israel (Is. 54:5) and Christ’s union with His Church (Eph. 5:23–32). He has chosen us. We have chosen him.


My former pastor used to ask a man, "Did you choose your wife or did your wife choose you?" The answer didn't much matter. Each chose one another.
There are a few problems with that, he is speaking from a western cultural viewpoint, when the marriage that is the metaphor for our union with Christ is from a near east or ancient east. The father picks the bride for the son.

Genesis 24:1-9 "Now Abraham was old, well advanced in years. And the Lord had blessed Abraham in all things.2 And Abraham said to his servant, the oldest of his household, who had charge of all that he had, “Put your hand under my thigh,3 that I may make you swear by the Lord, the God of heaven and God of the earth, that you will not take a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell,4 but will go to my country and to my kindred, and take a wife for my son Isaac.”5 The servant said to him, “Perhaps the woman may not be willing to follow me to this land. Must I then take your son back to the land from which you came?”6 Abraham said to him, “See to it that you do not take my son back there.7 The Lord, the God of heaven, who took me from my father's house and from the land of my kindred, and who spoke to me and swore to me, ‘To your offspring I will give this land,’ he will send his angel before you, and you shall take a wife for my son from there.8 But if the woman is not willing to follow you, then you will be free from this oath of mine; only you must not take my son back there.”9 So the servant put his hand under the thigh of Abraham his master and swore to him concerning this matter."

Abraham, Isaac's father is setting it up for his servant to go to the land of his father's to find a wife for his son Isaac. Ephesians 1:4 "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love" Who is the He in this context, it's the Father who chose us as the bride of Christ"

But let's take what your pastor used to say and compare it to what Surgeon said "why do people have a hard letting Jesus chose His bride when you want the freedom to chose your's?" Either way, the bride is chosen. If you do a study on the near east marriage arrangement you'll understand lots of things Christ said, like only the Father knows the day and hour. that's because in that culture in that time, the son would build onto the father's house and when the father thought the son was ready, he would tell him to go get his bride. With that backdrop the parable of the 10 virgins to easy to understand, with all of the other references to the gathering of the bride to Christ.

Back to the Genesis story, the father sends the servant and the Father sends the angels to gather the elect to be united to Christ, because we are elect by the Father, Ephesians 1:4. Here are the angels gathering the elect. Matthew 24:31 "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love" Also notice that Abraham tells his servant that the Lord took him out of his father's land and this is not the only place that says this Joshua 24:2-3

"And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.3 Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac."

So the Lord said He intruded on Abraham's life and Abraham say it as well in Genesis 24:7
 
Dec 28, 2016
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This is another excellent example of how important it is to understand the the culture and language conventions of the time when trying to interpret the Word of God.
Merely trying to extrapolate current culture or the use of words back to biblical times is just an invitation to confusion and misunderstanding.

First rule of hermeneutics: try to understand what is written the way the original AUTHOR intended it to be understood!
You have it all wrong brother, all I need is me and my bible under a tree and God will without anything else bring me to a true understanding of the Bible without man. "I don't follow man." "I don't need man to teach me." "Nothing I understand from the Bible has come from man, God alone taught it to me."

Uh huh, "cowboy:"

[video=youtube;AFa1-kciCb4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFa1-kciCb4[/video]

Preacher: "I pray God to make me more ignoranter and more ignoranter, ignorance is "spiritual."'

Recipient of the preachers words: "I believe God has already answered your prayer!"

Cultural background doesn't matter, nor audience, context, intentions. Just me and my bible under a tree...lolzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!! ;)
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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You have it all wrong brother, all I need is me and my bible under a tree and God will without anything else bring me to a true understanding of the Bible without man. "I don't follow man." "I don't need man to teach me." "Nothing I understand from the Bible has come from man, God alone taught it to me."

Uh huh, "cowboy:"

[video=youtube;AFa1-kciCb4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFa1-kciCb4[/video]

Preacher: "I pray God to make me more ignoranter and more ignoranter, ignorance is "spiritual."'

Recipient of the preachers words: "I believe God has already answered your prayer!"

Cultural background doesn't matter, nor audience, context, intentions. Just me and my bible under a tree...lolzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!! ;)
Are you trying to make me laugh!
Don't you know the Bible forbids this....
 
Apr 15, 2017
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1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
There is a context to that...

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
...and to this...with it's given immediate audience to whom it applies...

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
...and to this.

But don't let exegesis get in anyone's way, right?

Uh huh.

Ephesians 4:11ff; 1 Timothy 5:17; Hebrews 13:17. <--- The context? Written to the church. Obey it.
 
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Of course we need people to guide people to the truth,but we allow the Spirit to show us the truth,and some things we might not have come across.

Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Obey it,as if I never went to Church and heard preaching,or anyone else speaking,and learned something.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Of course we need people to guide people to the truth,but we allow the Spirit to show us the truth,and some things we might not have come across.

Act 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Obey it,as if I never went to Church and heard preaching,or anyone else speaking,and learned something.
You're trying to play catch up.
 
May 18, 2017
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[The atonement is limited to those who repent (Acts 2:37, 38).] You got a point.
God is a righteous judge,
and a God who feels indignation every day.

If a man does not repent, God will whet his sword;
he has bent and readied his bow (Ps 7:11–12).
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
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This completely contradicts Gods Word which makes this doctrines of demons pure and simple.
If it is contradicts the word of God, it is your duty as a believe to defend or contend for it. I Peter 3:15 "but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect," and Jude 1:3 "Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints"

Here a defense of limited atonement by going through John 3 in it context.

So you are saying that John 3:16 is a doctrine from demons? Because it limits the atonement to those that believe. It does not say. For God so loved the world, He gave His only Son so that they can have eternal life. But it does not say that, it says “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” This limits the atoning sacrifice is only applied to those that believe. Let's look at the context of John 3:16 the chapter is about salvation starting with verse 3 and ending with verse 36 what is 3:3 say “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

No man can see the kingdom unless they are born again, then Jesus explains how the Spirit works in verse 8. “The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” The Spirit moves where He wills or by His chose, He is not responding to anything, have you ever seen the wind respond to anything? No, because it is not responsive, same with the Spirit, He moves where He wants to move, the same with those born of the Spirit, He chose where He is going and who He is going to. Not only is Jesus showing how the Spirit moves with an example of how man in his natural state does not understand the kingdom even went taught in earthly terms, notice. Verse 9 Nicodemus' response to what Jesus just taught him about the moving of the Spirit in making people born again or of the Spirit, to they can understand the kingdom and believe.

“How can these things be?” Jesus responds to Nicodemus' misunderstanding by saying. Verse 12, “If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?” Jesus rebukes Nicodemus because He is not understanding earthly teaching, how will He be able to understand heavenly teaching.

Verse 15, “that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.” Whoever, does not carry any idea of chose as some have tried to make it say, “whoever” is defined by Acts 2:39 “For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom (whoever/whosoever) the Lord our God calls to himself.” The only chose is on the Lord’s side and Revelation 14:6 “Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—” Notice that this is between dashes, dashes are the opposite of parentheses, parentheses are like it is a wisher. Where dashes are like it is being yelled out or it has an important emphasis. Which is of importance in the Gospels and the epistles to make it known that it is not for the Jews only but for whoever/whosoever/everyone that believes, it has nothing to do with choice as we will see in this chapter.

This is why we need to read John 3:3, 16 in it’s context 3:3 by the move of the Spirit verse 8, verse 15, whoever believes will be saved. Verse 21 But anyone who lives by the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be shown to be accomplished by God.”HSCB

Verse 27 “John answered, “A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven.” So here in the context of John with 3:16 we have a verse that says “a person cannot receive one thing unless it is given to him from heaven”. This includes salvation that is the context of chapter 3 of John. Let’s look at how chapter 3 finishes out by limiting the atonement to those that believe and as we’ve seen if it is given to whoever/whosoever/anyone it is given from heaven, not by ones choice.

3:35-36 “For God sent Him, and He speaks God’s words, since He gives the Spirit without measure.35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hands.36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.” Have you noticed a theme here man when given a chance to chose always choses his sin, not God and if they receive anything from heaven it is from God or God accomplished it.

These verses limit the atonement to those that believe, those that do not, the wrath of God remains on them. Which is interpreted by verses 3:18-20, all chose their sin over Jesus because they love their wickedness and hate Him. The ones that come to Jesus, they show that it is “accomplished by God” not of themselves, verse 3:21. So all that come to Jesus come because of what Jesus said in John 1:12-13 “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”

This falls in line with the five solas we are saved by Scripture alone, by Christ alone, by Faith alone, by Grace alone and to the Glory of God alone. So the verse that is used to rebuke limited atonement, when it is read in context it supports or teaches limited atonement in it entirety. Because all it says is that the atoning death of Christ is for those that believe only it does not apply to those that do not believe and whoever believe, they believe because they are born of the Spirit and it is given to them from heaven. So that they can understand the kingdom of God so that they can place their faith in the truth of the Gospel.

Notice being born again comes first, so one can understand the kingdom of God, with out it the natural man can not understand the kingdom because they are blind or blinded. II Corinthians 4:3-4 "
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
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The atonement is limited to those who repent (Acts 2:37, 38).
And is available to whoever/whosoever/everyone who the Lord calls to Himself.

Acts 2:39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”
 
May 18, 2017
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[The atonement is limited to those who repent (Acts 2:37, 38).] And is available to whoever/whosoever/everyone who the Lord calls to Himself.
And he has called everyone (Jn 3:16, 2 Pe 3:9). He loved the world, not just you (Matt. 9:13).
 
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The Parable of the Wedding Feast

And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

“But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.” The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Mt 22:1–14). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.