An Introduction to the Doctrines of Grace: Limited Atonement

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Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
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#1
We have looked at the sovereignty of God, He is in control of His creation, He can bring His plans to come to pass. Total depravity, not being able to please God in his flesh, but that he can do no good in pleasing God, but that man can do good to other men, but not before God. Unconditional election by God because of mans condition of total depravity in his flesh and not being able to please God by doing good. Now we will look at limited atonement. If you did not read the Scriptures presented for each Doctrine of Grace that we have presented, you will be lost as to what or why atonement is limited or by design.

Please do not be an irrational person by having a view of the Doctrines of Grace that has been told to you by others that are not believers in these doctrines or what you think they are. Please read the Scriptures reason by the Scriptures that these are Scriptural or not. If not, please post the Scripture that show they are not, so we can reason by the Scriptures that they are not so/true, so we can build one another up in the faith so that we will not be blown about by every wind of doctrine.


Limited Atonement


God, then, chose some sinners to save. This did not make them saved at that time. It only guaranteed that they certainly would be saved in the end. Two more things needed to be done: prepare the means for their salvation and apply it to them. First, we read in Scripture that God foreordained that Jesus Christ would become a man and would die on the Cross as the means of salvation (Acts 2:23; 4:28). Christ died as a substitute for others (1 Cor. 15:3; Rom.5:8). He suffered the infinite wrath of God for sin, and satisfied that wrath. This is called propitiation (1 John 2:2, 4:10). Because Jesus was a perfect man and God in the flesh, His sacrifice had infinite value. He did not pay an exact equivalent for our sins; He paid a super-abundant payment infinitely above what we owed. All that He did would have been necessary had only one sinner been chosen, but He would not have had to do any more had all sinners been chosen.

Historic Calvinists teach that there are two aspects of this one atonement. The first is that there is a sense in which Christ died for all men everywhere (John 1:29, 3:16, 4:42, 6:33, 51; 2 Cor. 5:14, 19; I Tim. 2:4-6; John 2:2; 2 Pet 2:1). By His death on the Cross, He removed all legal barriers in case any man believes. His death for all men also purchased the common bounties of life for all men. It also secured a delay of judgment for them, as it were, though not a permanent one. All will one day be judged, but the fact that all men are not already in Hell is due to the atonement of Christ. Moreover, on the basis of this universal aspect of the atonement, salvation is offered freely to all men: “Come and dine, for all is ready!” (cf. Matt. 22:2-14; Luke 14:16-24). Also, Christ died for all men in this sense in order to be Lord of all men, whether alive or dead, elect or non-elect (Rom. 14:9; Phil. 2:10-11).


Most Evangelicals will agree with this analysis so far, but Calvinist go yet further. We teach that the death of Christ is sufficient for all men, but is efficient only for the elect. There is a sense in which Christ died for all, but there is a sense in which He died only for the elect. He died for all, but especially for the elect (1 Tim. 4:10). He purchased some blessings for all men, but all blessings for some men. Since the elect are scattered throughout the world and mingled together with the non-elect, Christ purchased the whole world with the special intent of owning the elect (cf. Matt. 13:44). This special aspect of the atonement is what is called Limited Atonement. Some call it Particular Redemption.


Eph. 5:25 says, “Christ also loved the Church [the elect] and gave Himself up for her.” A man loves all other persons, but has a special love for his wife and will do some things for her that he will not do for all other persons. The same is true with Christ. He has a general love for all men and did something for all men at the Cross because they were His creatures. But He has a special love for His bride and did something special for her at the Cross. He died for her in such a way as to guarantee that she would be saved, made perfectly holy and ready for Heaven (vs.26).


There are other verses that indicates this special intent of the atonement. John 10:15, 17 and 18 (my addition verse 11) say that Christ the Good Shepherd died for “the sheep”. Lest somebody think that this could include all men everywhere, Christ goes on to say that some people are not His sheep (vs. 26) Hence there is a sense in which He died for the sheep (the elect) and not for the goats and wolves (the non-elect). Later in John 15:13-14, Christ said that He would lay down His life for His “friends.” But not all men are His friends. Isaiah 53:8 prophesied that Christ would die for God’s “people”, but not all men are God’s people-only the elect. Acts 20:28 says that Christ purchased “the Church” with His blood, but not all men are the Church. Further, Rom. 8:32 says that if God gave Christ to die for us, then He will surely give us all other things. Since He does not give all these things of salvation to all men, then it follows that Christ was not given for them at the Cross in this special way. Christ died so as to make possible the salvation of all men, but He died to make definite the salvation of the elect alone. It was designed for the elect.


Again, there are many objections to this truth, but they can all be answered by pointing out that no man deserved for Christ to die for him. Actually, there is no dispute that Christ did not die for Satan or the demons; the atonement is clearly limited there. But the non-elect are in the same situation as Satan-none will be saved because none were elected. The thing to keep in mind is that the atonement was designed for the elect.

From, Biblical Calvinism by Curt Daniel. There are other Scriptures that show that Christ died for us/elect/beloved/her/bride/Church/sheep/friend in His
atoning death, in it's propitiation or ransom it is for the all men, in that God loves the world by giving His only Son, while the designed death of Christ is for His people for their sins as well as the worlds, but to eternal life only to His people.
 

Yonah

Senior Member
Oct 31, 2014
1,074
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#2
The main problem I have with Calvanism, is that its based on mans opinion of the scriptures rather then the scriptures themselves, I realize that the 'church fathers' were learned and devoted men, but men they were, therefore ANY doctrine needs to line up with and pass the test of the whole of biblical text in proper context and application, not removing certain verses to back up a doctrine, but rather making certain the doctrine matches what the bible actually teaches.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
#3
The main problem I have with Calvanism, is that its based on mans opinion of the scriptures rather then the scriptures themselves, I realize that the 'church fathers' were learned and devoted men, but men they were, therefore ANY doctrine needs to line up with and pass the test of the whole of biblical text in proper context and application, not removing certain verses to back up a doctrine, but rather making certain the doctrine matches what the bible actually teaches.
Think about what you are saying, you want me to believe what you are saying, but you are just a man, so by your own logic none of us should believe a word you say.

Here's my question have you read those Scriptures? Bring the Scriptures that prove these doctrines wrong I'm open.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#4
Limited atonement is a false doctrine. God so loved the world - that He gave His Son.

John 4:41-42 (NASB)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] Many more believed because of His word;

[SUP]42 [/SUP] and they were saying to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world."

1 John 4:14-15 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Romans 10:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

[SUP]13 [/SUP] for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Luke 2:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;

[SUP]11 [/SUP] for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

( why especially of believers? - because they chose to believe in Christ when they heard the message of Him and the forgiveness of sins )



Jesus being crucified with 2 thieves is a picture of everyone in the world included in Christ's death on the cross. One thief chose to believe - the other did not.

God thought it was so important - the 2 thieves which represent all in the world - both those that chose to believe and those that don't are in all the gospels. Matt. 27:38, Mark 15:27, Lk. 23:32, John 19:18
 
Dec 9, 2011
13,713
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#5
The main problem I have with Calvanism, is that its based on mans opinion of the scriptures rather then the scriptures themselves, I realize that the 'church fathers' were learned and devoted men, but men they were, therefore ANY doctrine needs to line up with and pass the test of the whole of biblical text in proper context and application, not removing certain verses to back up a doctrine, but rather making certain the doctrine matches what the bible actually teaches.
Yes,let's see If calvanist can harmonize scripture that Is con to calvin with scriptures that they would use to buttress calvins doctrine,since all scripture should harmonize and If they can't harmonize the scriptures that they use with the scriptures we use so that the truth always becomes clear and making sense,If It doesn't,then someone has deviated Into error and no longer going correctly.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
#6
Limited atonement is a false doctrine. God so loved the world - that He gave His Son.

John 4:41-42 (NASB)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] Many more believed because of His word;

[SUP]42 [/SUP] and they were saying to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world."

1 John 4:14-15 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Romans 10:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

[SUP]13 [/SUP] for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Luke 2:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;

[SUP]11 [/SUP] for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

( why especially of believers? - because they chose to believe in Christ when they heard the message of Him and the forgiveness of sins )



Jesus being crucified with 2 thieves is a picture of everyone in the world included in Christ's death on the cross. One thief chose to believe - the other did not.

God thought it was so important - the 2 thieves which represent all in the world - both those that chose to believe and those that don't are in all the gospels. Matt. 27:38, Mark 15:27, Lk. 23:32, John 19:18
So you believe in the false doctrine you are against? Think about what you are saying, it is especially to those that believe, making the benefits of the atonement limited to those that believe and no one else. To add to "especially to those that believe" Here are those that believe.

John 10:11, 15 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep...15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Ephesians 5:25-27
Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

Not only did He especially die for them that believe/sheep/Church, He will also in His
definite plan present them to Himself pure and holy. God definite plan of salvation was from before the foundations of creation. Because of that definite plan of salvation Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness, how can that be if Christ had not yet died, because God knew that Christ would die because He was bringing it to pass. This is why He can say, "the lamb slaying before the foundations of the world." or "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world," because all those that would believe He chose and not by foreseeing any work of righteousness either.

Because God has a definite plan that He is carrying out He can also say "and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus," He raised us with Christ, how can that be we were not even born yet, "—
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of
him who calls—" This is how He elects, it's not based on anything we do, it is solely by His will and purpose of election.

You said because they chose to believe, can you show me in those verse where it say that they chose or the whosoever choses to believe, because I'm not seeing it, yet I posted Scriptures that show He elects by His will, not by any thing we do.

Brother you believe in limited atonement, it's just that you have this idea that if it's Reformed or Calvinistic it's false, yet you posted limited atonement verse and posted out "especially to those that believe" Limited atonement does not mean that Christ did not die for the sins of the world, His blood or sacrifice can cover all sins that have ever been committed in the world. But the benefit of it's atonement are to those that believe/elect/Church not unbelievers. Think about it, take out the anything Reformed or Calvinist is false and look at the Scriptures.

The so called limited atonement killer John 3:16, limits the atonement to whosoever believes, God loved the world in that He gave His only Son, but He does not give them eternal life, He only gives it to those that believe, which He elects. This was the reason I posted God's
sovereignty, then total depravity before posting unconditional election. Because to understand limited atonement you have to understand the other three. Which will help you understand irresistible grace, which help with the understanding of perseverance of the saints.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#7
All people have the choice to either believe in Christ or not believe when they hear the message of His death and resurrection.

Whosoever wills - let him come and drink from Christ. Everyone in the world is included in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ and in that truth there is no such thing as "limited atonement". Sadly some people will refuse to believe and receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness but that is from their own doing - not God's.

Here is the will of God concerning people.

2 Peter 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Matthew 23:37 (NASB)
[SUP]37 [/SUP]
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Jesus said "How often He wanted to...but they would not."

Everyone will have a choice to either receive or not the work of Christ. We beg them - be reconciled to God because on God's side - He sees you as already reconciled by Christ's work. This is our true ministry.

2 Corinthians 5:18-20 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

[SUP]19 [/SUP] namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.


[SUP]20 [/SUP] Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Romans 10:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

[SUP]13 [/SUP] for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."


The Lord Jesus Christ is the "Elect" and those that receive Him become one spirit with Him become the elect. 1 Cor. 6:17
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#8
Here's a couple

John 1:29 the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world

John 4:42 the Christ the Savoir of the world

John 6:51 if any man eat of this bread he shall live forever

2 Cor 5:19 reconciling the world unto Himself

1 John 2:2 and not for ours only but the sins of the whole world

1 John 4:4 sent to be Savior of the world

Of course to the Calvinist the world is not the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#9
People don't elect themselves to become elect. That defeats the whole purpose of election.

People don't come to repentance without the Lord Jesus Christ. And no one comes to the Lord Jesus Christ unless God draws (elects) them.

1 Corinthians 1:25-29
[FONT=&quot]25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.[/FONT]
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#10
Here's a couple

John 1:29 the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.
If He literally takes away everybody's sins, then everybody is saved.


John 3:16 For God so loved the world
Yet God's wrath is over the disobedience.[John 3:36]

John 4:42 the Christ the Savoir of the world
Then everybody w/o exception is saved.

John 6:51 if any man eat of this bread he shall live forever
Only believers do this.

2 Cor 5:19 reconciling the world unto Himself
Those He is reconciling don't have their sins accounted to them.

1 John 2:2 and not for ours only but the sins of the whole world
Study propitiation. If God has been propitiated for everybody's sins, then His wrath has been appeased. If God's wrath has been appeased for everybody w/o exception, then He has no wrath to mete out on the day of Judgment.

1 John 4:4 sent to be Savior of the world
Then everybody w/o exception is saved.

Of course to the Calvinist the world is not the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Nope. Just yall's definition of the word 'world'.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#11
I don't understand why people argue over this one.

If atonement isn't limited then everyone is saved and no one needs to come to repentance.


I suppose the argument is really over election. People don't like that.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#12
I don't understand why people argue over this one.

If atonement isn't limited then everyone is saved and no one needs to come to repentance.


I suppose the argument is really over election. People don't like that.
Everybody limits the atonement to a certain extent.

If the atonement is not applied to Satan and those who rebelled with him, then they limit the atonement to ppl only.

If the atonement is not applied to those who die in unbelief then they limit it to believers.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#13
People don't elect themselves to become elect. That defeats the whole purpose of election.

People don't come to repentance without the Lord Jesus Christ. And no one comes to the Lord Jesus Christ unless God draws (elects) them.

1 Corinthians 1:25-29
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#14
Everybody limits the atonement to a certain extent.

If the atonement was not meant for Satan and those who rebelled with him, then they limit the atonement to ppl only.

If the atonement is not applied to those who die in unbelief then it is limited to believers.
Exactly.

So its not limited atonement they don't like.

Its election.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#15
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
How does He draw ppl to Himself. Via His word.[1 Cor. 1:21, Romans 1:16, Romans 10:8-17, Eph. 1:13]

Not everybody has heard the word nor have they known of the Christ's existence. Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is about the Christ.[Romans 10:17]
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
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#16
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
So did the Lord Jesus lie?

Are all men drawn to Him or not?

Or did He mean it differently than the way you are trying to make it?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#17
I don't understand why people argue over this one.

If atonement isn't limited then everyone is saved and no one needs to come to repentance.


I suppose the argument is really over election. People don't like that.
A great big red herring.

God has always made atonement a matter of Choice for man.

Cain had the choice to receive the sin (offering) that lieth at the door. A sin offering God provided for him after his original offering was declared unacceptable.

Ge 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#18
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Those drawn to Him will come to Him and whoever comes to Him He will not cast aside.

If everybody is drawn, everybody's saved.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#19
So did the Lord Jesus lie?

Are all men drawn to Him or not?

Or did He mean it differently than the way you are trying to make it?
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Even Gods elect, Israel, still had to accept the offer of redemption.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#20
Those drawn to Him will come to Him and whoever comes to Him He will not cast aside.

If everybody is drawn, everybody's saved.
Again a statement made without thought or comprehension.

For the cause of Christ
Roger