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Thread: Are you a son or a slave?

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Are you a son or a slave?

    Tourist,

    you are becoming the person that Jesus is molding you into! praise God...

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    Default Re: Are you a son or a slave?

    Quote Originally Posted by tourist View Post
    I am the person that I am.

    Just to throw a monkey wrench into all this - you are also the husband of the daughter...
    JesusLives and tourist like this.

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    Default Re: Are you a son or a slave?

    Quote Originally Posted by oldethennew View Post
    Tourist,

    you are becoming the person that Jesus is molding you into! praise God...
    Thank you for your kind words. Yes, God is always worth of praise.
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    M & M's melt in your mouth and not in your hands.

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    Default Re: Are you a son or a slave?

    If we are dead to sin...righteousness is then self evident. True? Look at the greek roots of servant and righteousness.
    Meggido likes this.
    Jeepers Creepers...we gotta get new peepers.

    Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

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    Default Re: Are you a son or a slave?

    Quote Originally Posted by stonesoffire View Post
    If we are dead to sin...righteousness is then self evident. True? Look at the greek roots of servant and righteousness.
    Righteousness is not some mystical state. See the evidence of righteousness below. It is he who DOES what it right.

    Verse (Click for Chapter)

    New International Version
    Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.

    New Living Translation
    Dear children, don't let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous.

    English Standard Version
    Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.

    Berean Study Bible
    Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.

    Berean Literal Bible
    Little children, let no one lead you astray; the one practicing righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

    New American Standard Bible
    Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

    King James Bible
    Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous.

    International Standard Version
    Little children, don't let anyone deceive you. The person who practices righteousness is righteous, just as the Messiah is righteous.

    NET Bible
    Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous.

    New Heart English Bible
    Little children, let no one lead you astray. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    Children, let no one deceive you; he who does righteousness is righteous even as The Messiah also is righteous.

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    Default Re: Are you a son or a slave?

    Quote Originally Posted by Meggido View Post
    Romans 6 says we are slaves of righteousness.

    18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
    Amen! There are only two kinds of slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; slaves of sin unto death (unbelievers), or slaves of obedience unto righteousness (believers). When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

    Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

    Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

    Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Are you a son or a slave?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris1975 View Post
    Note that this passage above was addressed to the Jews who believed Him....
    Yet their superficial "belief" fell short of authentic belief in Christ that did not result in salvation. *Notice that these Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turned out to be slaves to sin (verse 34); indifferent to Jesus’ words (verse 37); children of the devil (verse 44) liars (verse 55) and guilty of setting out to stone the one they have professed to believe in (verse 59).

    John 8
    30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
    Are genuine believers described as slaves to sin/children of the devil etc..? (John 8:34-59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that "many of his disciples said, "This is a hard saying, who can understand it?" These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (John 6:64). They also walked with Him no more. They did not continue. If we continue in His word, then we demonstrate that we are TRULY His disciples (John 8:31). Those who fail to continue in His word demonstrate that they were NOT TRULY His disciples.

    To truly believe in Christ is to obey Christ.
    If you truly believe in Christ then you will obey Him, yet not sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time. Faith is believing and obedience which follows is works and we are not saved by works.

    To truly believe in Christ is to cease sinning.
    So only those who live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) truly believe in Christ? Everyone else who falls short of sinless perfection does not truly believe in Christ? Is that what you are implying?
    Grace777x70 likes this.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Are you a son or a slave?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris1975 View Post
    1 John 3v4-6

    4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
    In regards to "does not sin" Greek scholar AT Robertson comments - The present active participle (poiwn) means the habit of doing sin. Whosoever sinneth (o amartanwn). Present (linear) active articular participle like menwn above, "the one who keeps on sinning" (lives a life of sin, not mere occasional acts of sin as amarthsa, aorist active participle, would mean). Hath not seen him (ouc ewraken auton). Perfect active indicative of oraw. The habit of sin is proof that one has not the vision or the knowledge (egnwken, perfect active also) of Christ. - 1 John 3:6 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

    Do you actually believe that you live a sinless life 100% of the time? 1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin (present tense), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Are you a son or a slave?

    1 Peter 4
    4 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us[a] in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

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    Default Re: Are you a son or a slave?

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    In regards to "does not sin" Greek scholar AT Robertson comments - The present active participle (poiwn) means the habit of doing sin. Whosoever sinneth (o amartanwn). Present (linear) active articular participle like menwn above, "the one who keeps on sinning" (lives a life of sin, not mere occasional acts of sin as amarthsa, aorist active participle, would mean). Hath not seen him (ouc ewraken auton). Perfect active indicative of oraw. The habit of sin is proof that one has not the vision or the knowledge (egnwken, perfect active also) of Christ. - 1 John 3:6 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

    Do you actually believe that you live a sinless life 100% of the time? 1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin (present tense), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    Here, I will do a screen dump.

    Romans 6v1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
    Romans 6v15 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
    Romans 6v22-23 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Romans 8v12-14 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
    1 John 3v4-9 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

    ALL OF THIS IS WRITTEN TO THE CHURCH. Not to outsiders.

    So the jackpot questions are these:


    1. Is the above possible?
      1. If you say “yes” – then you agree with the Word of God. For that (above) is what it says.
      2. If you say “no” – then you are is denial about the Word of God. For the scriptures are plain to see.


    2. If God has a Holy Standard, would it be sinless perfection, or something less?
      1. If you say “sinless perfection” you agree that the Lord is Holy. Without Holiness Nobody will see the Lord. 1 Peter 1v15-16 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”[c] Elsewhere it is written: Hebrews 12 14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; and elsewhere it is written: Matthew 5v48 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
      2. If you say something short of sinless perfection; you deny the Lord, for He is the essence of Holiness. He can never make the standard lower than perfection.



    The Apostles Paul and John wrote the above scriptures under inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They are truth. Now you are presented the opportunity to either accept them and ask the Lord to give you understanding, or reject them, and lose out the treasures of what the Lord God wants to reveal to you next. If you really want to press into Him, if you really want the overcoming life, then take the above scriptures as the Gospel truth. We are to rise to this standard, and not drag this down to man’s standard.

    How is the above state achieved? How are we to live according to this standard?

    The clues can also be found in Romans 6
    Romans 6v3-11
    3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    The above is received by faith. It’s your faith in ACTION


    • Reckon yourself DEAD TO SIN
    • Reckon yourself ALIVE TO GOD IN CHRIST JESUS THE LORD



    Here is the clue:



    • You can NEVER overcome sin unless you dethrone sin in your life by identifying your old man dead on the cross. Crucified with Christ (Gal 2v20). Pick up your cross daily (Luke 9v23).
    • You can NEVER live the resurrected life in Christ (living in the Spirit) unless you go through the cross and identify your new man alive in Christ. You are a new creation (2 Cor 5v17). Born again (1 John 5v4 ; John 3v3). Christ living in you (Gal 2v20)



    If you tell yourself “It’s impossible to stop sinning” you by FAITH restore the power of Sin over your life. You re-enthrone Sin as your Master. Is that really what you want? It may be so, that that is what you want. But that’s not true Christianity. Christianity is not a democracy. There is a King. And this King is Lord. And He is Jesus Christ. And what He says, you should heed.

    Now, the above being said, namely (A) God’s standard (B) How this is appropriated ----- let’s move onto (C) the Hope we have should we have to this point failed in heeding God’s word and a path back into His arms…….
    In order to share with you the Hope which is found within the Word of God, it would be useful to look at the lives of Paul and John, who wrote most of the scriptures written above.

    Paul

    Question: Did Paul live the very standard that he wrote above? Or was he a Hypocrite? Or is there a truth which can be gleaned from the above passages when comparing this to other scriptures which Paul wrote? Let’s see below:

    Philippians 3 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule,[b] let us be of the same mind.17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.


    • Now from the above passages we see a clear link between Romans 6 (the Holy Standard) and Philippians 3 (Paul’s walk with the Lord)
    • Paul references the conformity of His death with Christ (Phil 3v10 and Romans 6 v5,6,8) as well as the resurrection life (Phil 3v10,11 and Romans 6 v5,8)
    • Paul lives this by FAITH, yet he says he has not yet already attained (v12) or perfected (v12) or apprehended (v13)
    • YET ---- Paul doesn’t let this hold him back. He doesn’t bring down God’s standard AT ALL. What does he do? He presses on (v12); forgets what’s behind (v13) reaching forward to what’s ahead (v13); presses towards the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (v14). His direction is always UP….UP….UP.
    • He then goes on to say (v16) “Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule”. You see? The victories which the Israelites achieved in the Promised land are the victories which You (Christian) are to have in the Kingdom walk. Have you overcome your sins? Don’t be like Lot’s wife and look back. To the degree that you have attained – let this be your new base. Onward and upward.
    • Yet he goes further and warns of those in the church (v18-v19) who live by the flesh. They set their minds on earthly things (v19). This is corroborated by Romans 8v5. For these people (in the Church) who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (Gal 5v19-21)
    • To he/she who reads this – do you think you can, as a Christian, continue to live in sin? Or should you like Paul accept the Holy Standard (Romans 6) and press on and up, forgetting what is behind, and laying hold of Christ. This is plain for you to see.
    • Herein lies the Hope. For You. For Me. For all who love the Lord.



    John

    1 John 1 v5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.


    • He is the essence of Holiness


    6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.


    • How can we say we are “In Christ” and yet walk in sin?


    7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.


    • Do you see this? The blood of Jesus cleanses us when we walk in the light (and not in sin).
    • The corollary is this, to those here who think OSAS – if you walk in darkness, then the blood of Jesus doesn’t cleanse you from this.
    • It is clear that the blood of Jesus is only available to a repentant heart. And a repentant heart doesn’t walk in sin.
    • You cannot retain your sins and retain Christ. You will have to give one of them up.


    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


    • Whether your interpretation of this scripture (for which there has been much debate on the forums) is to whether this applies to historical or current sins matters not in the greater scheme of things. It applies to both, in that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and this we cannot deny. It is equally applicable should a believer fall into sin and is necessary to repent of such sin. We are to judge ourselves lest we be judged. The first step is total honesty with yourself. For nothing is hidden from God.



    9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


    • “IF” we confess our sins, He is faithful to Forgive. You claim forgiveness from God do you? Have you confessed your sins to Him? Do you think, like many OSAS believers, that confession is not necessary because repentance is only a one time “event”? Then your sins are retained. Because you choose not to confess. Because you choose not to repent.



    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


    • All have sinned.
    • It doesn’t bring down God’s Holy Standard (Romans 6). Neither does it preclude the possibility of attainment.
    • God has made a way to deal with past sin. If you wish to appropriate this, then it needs to be according to His way, not yours.



    2v1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.


    • John is clear in this. We are not to sin. John is not a confused Apostle. He is not contradicting himself in the same letter in 1 John 3v6 with 1 John 1v10.
    • John is showing the way that is available for true repentance.


    And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.


    • Here is the Hope available to us. Jesus Christ. He is our Advocate. He redeemed us. Purchased us by His shed blood on the cross. He loves us. He doesn’t want anyone to go to hell. He makes intercession for the Saints. Thanks be to God. There, in Him, we have our true Hope.



    3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.


    • We have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ. So how do we respond?
    • Do we disobey because we have an Advocate?
    • Do we disobey because Jesus forgives?
    • Or do we repent of our sins?
    • Your conscience, lest it be seared, should witness a true response to these questions.



    So in summary, the great Apostles of the Lord NEVER condoned Sin. They judged it for what it was. They showed the Holy Standard to which the Church is accountable. They showed the “Way of Righteousness” through Jesus Christ, identification with His death and resurrection by faith, and the Hope by which we are to live, to press on to the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. They showed the way for any of our shortcomings through the advocate we have in Jesus Christ. Not that this was to be a lifestyle of sin, but rather that it provides us a hope that should we fall, we have a path back to the Father through Christ. None of this will be possible without maintaining a repentant heart and confession of sin.

    The corollary is the pathway to hell. This is the rejection of Christ’s way, and instead imputing your own way, namely:


    • No need for repentance
    • No need for confession
    • Holiness being optional
    • The Red Letter Words of Christ being “optional”, or a derivation of this that these words were “Old Testament”, or that these were only for the “Jews”.
    • Denial of sin (there are many derivations of this, one of these being a positional salvation – which means that sin doesn’t exist even though you transgress – because you have been made holy once and for all time, without any further accountability on your part)
    • Rejection of obedience



    You need to get off this road, if this is what you believe. Before it’s too late.

  11. #31
    Senior Member mailmandan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you a son or a slave?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris1975 View Post
    Here, I will do a screen dump.

    Romans 6v1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? Romans 6v15 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
    Once again, Greek scholar AT Robertson comments - Shall we continue in sin? (epimenwmen th amartiai?). Present active deliberative subjunctive of epimenw, old verb to tarry as in Ephesus ( 1 Corinthians 16:8 ) with locative case. The practice of sin as a habit (present tense) is here raised. Also see 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Again, AT Robertson comments - The present active infinitive amartanein can only mean "and he cannot go on sinning," as is true of amartanei in verse John 8 and amartanwn in verse John 6 . For the aorist subjunctive to commit a sin see amarthte and amarth in John 2:1. A great deal of false theology has grown out of a misunderstanding of the tense of amartanein here. Paul has precisely John's idea in Romans 6:1 epimenwmen th amartiai (shall we continue in sin, present active linear subjunctive) in contrast with amarthswmen in Romans 6:15 (shall we commit a sin, first aorist active subjunctive).

    *You still have not answered my question: Do you actually believe that you live a sinless life 100% of the time? 1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin (present tense), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    Romans 8v12-14 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
    I see that you read these verses OUT OF CONTEXT. Romans 8:5 - For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

    ALL OF THIS IS WRITTEN TO THE CHURCH. Not to outsiders.
    Yet what you continue to fail to understand is that there are "nominal Christians" mixed in with genuine Christians. 1 John 2 is written to the church/body of believers/My little children, yet in verse 19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. Since this is written to the church, does that mean those (unbelievers) who went out from us (believers) must have been believers themselves? Of course not.

    So the jackpot questions are these:


    1. Is the above possible?
      1. If you say “yes” – then you agree with the Word of God. For that (above) is what it says.
      2. If you say “no” – then you are is denial about the Word of God. For the scriptures are plain to see.

    2. If God has a Holy Standard, would it be sinless perfection, or something less?
    1. If sinless perfection 100% of the time is possible, then 1 John 1:8-21 and Romans chapter 7 is superfluous.



    1. If you say “sinless perfection” you agree that the Lord is Holy.
    I agree that the Lord is sinless, 100% of the time (absolutely Holy), but humans are not (Ecclesiastes 7:25; Romans 3:23).

    Without Holiness Nobody will see the Lord. 1 Peter 1v15-16 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”[c]
    I can see that you are confused about sanctification. There is an initial sanctification, in which we are made holy in standing before God, positionally in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:2; Hebrews 10:10) and there is also ongoing or progressive sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our conduct.

    In regards to being holy in all of our conduct, that is the goal to strive for, holy in all our conduct, yet that is not the means by which we receive eternal life. We are saved through faith in Christ and not based on the merits of sinless, perfect conduct.

    Elsewhere it is written: Hebrews 12 14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:
    The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

    15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; and elsewhere it is written:
    Those who fall short of the grace of God (NIV) or come short of the grace of God (NAS) fail to obtain the grace of God (ESV). This means they fell short of receiving salvation by grace through faith. It does not mean they were believers who fell short of sinless perfection and lost their salvation, as you would suppose.

    1. Matthew 5v48 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. 2. If you say something short of sinless perfection; you deny the Lord, for He is the essence of Holiness. He can never make the standard lower than perfection.
    So do you claim to be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time just like God the Father? Are we actually perfect "in that sense?" NO. Matthew 5:48 - Be Perfect - AT Robertson points out - Perfect (teleioi). The word comes from telo, end, goal, limit. Here it is the goal set before us, the absolute standard of our Heavenly Father. The word is used also for relative perfection as of adults compared with children.

    So absolute perfection, sinless, without fault or defect for us will not become a reality until we are present with the Lord, but that is the goal to strive for. Yet teleioi is also used to refer to the maturity of an adult, which is the end or aim to which the child points. Thus it denotes those who have attained the full development of innate powers, in contrast to those who are still in the undeveloped state (children).

    I have also seen people abuse and misuse the words of Jesus "go and sin no more" in John 8:11 to teach sinless perfection, yet Jesus was telling the woman to go and leave her life of sin, namely, she had been practicing adultery. Also, Jesus cannot compromise his perfect Holy standard, so of course He is not going to say, "go and just sin a little bit."

    The Apostles Paul and John wrote the above scriptures under inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They are truth. Now you are presented the opportunity to either accept them and ask the Lord to give you understanding, or reject them, and lose out the treasures of what the Lord God wants to reveal to you next. If you really want to press into Him, if you really want the overcoming life, then take the above scriptures as the Gospel truth. We are to rise to this standard, and not drag this down to man’s standard.
    Sinless perfection is not the Gospel truth (but is a deception - 1 John 1:8-2:1).

    How is the above state achieved? How are we to live according to this standard?
    Have you reached that absolute perfect standard? Are you sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time? Be honest.



    If you tell yourself “It’s impossible to stop sinning” you by FAITH restore the power of Sin over your life. You re-enthrone Sin as your Master. Is that really what you want? It may be so, that that is what you want.
    You are completely mixed up and I'm tired of your straw man arguments.

    END OF PART 1
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Are you a son or a slave?

    PART 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris1975 View Post
    Philippians 3 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
    *Please allow this verse to sink in and don't re-define faith as sinless perfection.

    10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule,[b] let us be of the same mind.17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.


    • Now from the above passages we see a clear link between Romans 6 (the Holy Standard) and Philippians 3 (Paul’s walk with the Lord)
    • Paul references the conformity of His death with Christ (Phil 3v10 and Romans 6 v5,6,8) as well as the resurrection life (Phil 3v10,11 and Romans 6 v5,8)
    • Paul lives this by FAITH, yet he says he has not yet already attained (v12) or perfected (v12) or apprehended (v13)
    • YET ---- Paul doesn’t let this hold him back. He doesn’t bring down God’s standard AT ALL. What does he do? He presses on (v12); forgets what’s behind (v13) reaching forward to what’s ahead (v13); presses towards the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (v14). His direction is always UP….UP….UP.
    • The heart of your error here is that you are confusing absolute perfection with maturity. Also, according to your logic, Paul is still a lost man here because he has not yet reached sinless perfection. In 1 Corinthians 3:1-3, we see that Paul is dealing with believers in which there was jealousy and strife among them, yet Paul still referred to them as "babes/infants" IN CHRIST. Paul did not say they were still lost in their sins because they have not reached sinless perfection/entire sanctification.


    1 John 1 v5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.


    • He is the essence of Holiness


    6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.


    • How can we say we are “In Christ” and yet walk in sin?
    • Genuine believers do not walk in darkness or practice sin. Instead, they walk in the light and practice righteousness.



    7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
    1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

    Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

    2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

    Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

    In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In vs. 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

    *Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that walks in darkness, hates his brother is connected to children of the devil.

    Do you see this? The blood of Jesus cleanses us when we walk in the light (and not in sin).
    I saw how you misinterpreted these verses to erroneously teach sinless perfection.

    The corollary is this, to those here who think OSAS – if you walk in darkness, then the blood of Jesus doesn’t cleanse you from this.
    Straw man argument.

    It is clear that the blood of Jesus is only available to a repentant heart. And a repentant heart doesn’t walk in sin. You cannot retain your sins and retain Christ. You will have to give one of them up.
    A repentant heart is followed by faith in Christ, not faith in sinless perfection. You cannot have faith in Christ and faith in self. You will have to give one of them up.

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    PRESENT TENSE. So much for your self righteous doctrine of sinless perfection.

    9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    *Notice - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (vs. 9) is IN CONTRAST TO - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (vs. 8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us (vs. 10). Some people misunderstand verse 9 to mean that we must confess each sin that we commit as we commit them (keep a specific inventory) as an additional requirement to remain cleansed and if we forget a sin we are toast!

    2v1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.


    • John is clear in this. We are not to sin. John is not a confused Apostle. He is not contradicting himself in the same letter in 1 John 3v6 with 1 John 1v10.
    • John is showing the way that is available for true repentance.
    • In 1 John 2:1, how can "if anyone sins we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ" if John teaches sinless perfection elsewhere? John would clearly be contradicting himself if he was teaching your false doctrine of sinless perfection.

    And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
    How can believers sin if they are supposed to be sinless 100% of the time according to your erroneous doctrine?

    3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
    BTY the Greek word for "keep" is "tereo" which means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve. It does not mean sinless, absolute perfect obedience to all of His commandments 100% of the time.

    We have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ. So how do we respond?
    • Do we disobey because we have an Advocate?
    • Do we disobey because Jesus forgives?
    • Or do we repent of our sins?
    • Your conscience, lest it be seared, should witness a true response to these questions.
    • I thought you said that John teaches sinless perfection, so why would you need to repent of any further sins if you are sinless and absolutely perfect 100% of the time?


    The corollary is the pathway to hell. This is the rejection of Christ’s way, and instead imputing your own way, namely:


    • No need for repentance
    • No need for confession
    • Holiness being optional
    • The Red Letter Words of Christ being “optional”, or a derivation of this that these words were “Old Testament”, or that these were only for the “Jews”.
    • Denial of sin (there are many derivations of this, one of these being a positional salvation – which means that sin doesn’t exist even though you transgress – because you have been made holy once and for all time, without any further accountability on your part)
    • Rejection of obedience


    You need to get off this road, if this is what you believe. Before it’s too late.
    No need for repentance, confession and holiness and rejection of obedience is your continued straw man argument. You are really confused about repentance, confession, holiness, and obedience because of your confusion with sanctification and sinless perfection. All I can say about your theology is, "what a mess!"

    Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness (1 John 1:8-10). You need to get off this road, if this is what you believe. Before it’s too late.
    Last edited by mailmandan; June 19th, 2017 at 09:05 AM.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Sinless maturity is the goal.

    Even Paul said "I have not yet attained".


    Phil 3:7But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

    IMO, there's a middle ground that neither might believe in..... just a guess.


    I don't believe in a sinless perfection, but I do believe thru Paul's teachings that
    God expects us to press towards that goal.
    Meggido likes this.

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    Default Re: Are you a son or a slave?

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    I am a son of Father and a slave of Jesus Christ.
    Better than being a slave to Satan (Jn 8:34).

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    Default Re: Are you a son or a slave?

    Quote Originally Posted by Meggido View Post
    Romans 6 says we are slaves of righteousness.

    18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

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    Default Re: Are you a son or a slave?

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Amen....and we are SONS by faith and not one sin will ever change that...
    Did dead Baptists tell you that? Someone from Dallas Theological Cemetery?

    For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:26–31 (NKJV)

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    Default Re: Are you a son or a slave?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris1975 View Post
    [Ro 8:14] ...For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
    Check and mate.

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    Default Re: Are you a son or a slave?

    Quote Originally Posted by serpentdove View Post
    Did dead Baptists tell you that? Someone from Dallas Theological Cemetery?

    For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:26–31 (NKJV)
    Yes - the Lord will judge His people Israel by the Lord Jesus Christ and the law of Moses and the sacrificial system of the Old Testament is not going to help them. Real Christians do not come into judgment because they are in Christ.

    Hebrews 10:26 can be a stumbling block if we don't take the context in which this passage was written.

    Some times well intentioned people take Hebrews 10:26-29 out of context with the book of Hebrews.

    Anyone can take an isolated scripture out of it's context and say anything they want. Here is an example in the scripture below - Ex 32:33.
    Anyone who has ever sinned is blotted out of God's book.

    Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
    33 The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

    This is truly stated in the OT but it is not the ultimate statement of truth. The work of Jesus's finished work on the cross trumps what is said in Ex. 32:33.

    Obviously we need to view all scripture through the finished work of Christ. We don't take obscure verses and discount the abundance of clear scriptures on what our Lord has done for us.

    Hebrews 10 is talking about Jewish people after hearing about Christ for the only sacrifice for sins and rejecting it to go back to the temple sacrifices for their sins.

    Hebrews was written a few years before the temple system came crashing down in 70AD when it was trampled by the Roman army.

    The "willful sinning" is after hearing the "knowledge" of the truth of Christ's sacrifice - those that go back to the temple sacrifices and do not receive Christ's work by faith - this is the wilful sinning being talked about - the rejection of Christ's sacrifice and blood for the forgiveness of all sins.

    This is insulting the Spirit of grace. The Holy Spirit's work is to convict/convince/expose the world of their sin - which is unbelief in Christ's work. John 16:8-9

    There is a vast difference between receiving the "knowledge" of the truth and "receiving the truth" which is Christ Himself.

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