Against Calvinism: God reacts to mankind. God asks mankind.

[Calmador]

I've heard Calvinists say that God does not react to mankind, yet this happens in the bible (prayer being a clear example). There's also a place where God asks a man what he'd like him to do for man.

Genesis 18:25 "Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly? 26So the LORD said, "If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account. 27And Abraham replied, "Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes."

Man questions God. God reacts and answers. It's clear that the context of this conversation between God and Abraham is not... Abraham shut up and obey. The context is Abraham can talk to God and expect God to react with an answer. The context is Abraham can question God's will. The context is Abraham can argue with God. And God is okay with this.

God reacts by listening to us and responding. He gives us the time and the day graciously. He is personal, not a "you shut up and do what I say kind of God" for a lack of better words. The situation between Abraham and God as described above seems really striking to me. If you read it carefully, I think it's extremely bold of Abraham... even though he is being humble by saying he is but "dust and ashes."

I think Abraham had some doubts about what God was doing. He was concerned with the death of innocent people definitely and perhaps the death of not so innocent people as well, but that is only a perhaps.

In other scriptures, there is a character by the name of Gideon. He also wondered and doubted if God was commanding him. God asked for a miracle. God reacted and gave Gideon a miracle. Judges 6:39 Then Gideon said to God, "Do not be angry with me. Let me make just one more request. Allow me one more test with the fleece, but this time make the fleece dry and let the ground be covered with dew."

Like Abraham, Gideon showed humility... still seems audacious, but as you can see God gives mankind the time and the day, graciously. He listens and reacts to our prayers. According to Calvinism, this was a man that was regenerated and acted in his own nature-will. God reacted to him. God was not speaking to himself. He was speaking to two men, Abraham and Gideon.

Now, God asks mankind... Mark 10:51-52 "What do you want me to do for you?" Jesus asked him. The blind man said, "Rabbi, I want to see. Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

Still really weird, Jesus asks a man "What do you want me to do for you?" The man reacts with an answer. Jesus then proceeds to do that thing he asked for.

Again, God reacts to mankind. If he did not react, then he could not interact with us.

If the Calvinist claims that God determined it so it just looks like He's reacting to humans, but it was always His will to have this particular situations, then I can't help that Calvinist. That would be nonsense. Just like it's nonsense to judge a printer for not playing music... just as it's nonsense to judge a man who can only sin... to do perfect goodness.

 

[Calmador]

God asked for a miracle. <--- meant to say "Gideon" here, not God.

 

[preacher4truth]

I've heard Calvinists say that God does not react to mankind,

Hearsay.

The above statement needs to be corroborated and qualified as to what it means. So far it remains an unsubstantiated claim and is completely vague. The entire OP then continues to build off of this ambiguous and incomplete implication, thus it is faulty at best.

 

[SovereignGrace]

We believe that God does not react to man in their fallen state. IOW, they don't first seek Him and then He seeks them in return.

God does react to ppl, but those He reacts to are His ppl, the elect.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Did God react to Abram before or after He found him in Ur?
How about Moses in Midian?
Or how about David when He sent Samuel to Jesse's house to find him?
Or how about Saul of Tarsus on the Damascus road?


I sensing a pattern here...

 

[Laish]

I've heard Calvinists say that God does not react to mankind, yet this happens in the bible (prayer being a clear example). There's also a place where God asks a man what he'd like him to do for man.

Genesis 18:25 "Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly? 26So the LORD said, "If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account. 27And Abraham replied, "Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes."

Man questions God. God reacts and answers. It's clear that the context of this conversation between God and Abraham is not... Abraham shut up and obey. The context is Abraham can talk to God and expect God to react with an answer. The context is Abraham can question God's will. The context is Abraham can argue with God. And God is okay with this.

God reacts by listening to us and responding. He gives us the time and the day graciously. He is personal, not a "you shut up and do what I say kind of God" for a lack of better words. The situation between Abraham and God as described above seems really striking to me. If you read it carefully, I think it's extremely bold of Abraham... even though he is being humble by saying he is but "dust and ashes."

I think Abraham had some doubts about what God was doing. He was concerned with the death of innocent people definitely and perhaps the death of not so innocent people as well, but that is only a perhaps.

In other scriptures, there is a character by the name of Gideon. He also wondered and doubted if God was commanding him. God asked for a miracle. God reacted and gave Gideon a miracle. Judges 6:39 Then Gideon said to God, "Do not be angry with me. Let me make just one more request. Allow me one more test with the fleece, but this time make the fleece dry and let the ground be covered with dew."

Like Abraham, Gideon showed humility... still seems audacious, but as you can see God gives mankind the time and the day, graciously. He listens and reacts to our prayers. According to Calvinism, this was a man that was regenerated and acted in his own nature-will. God reacted to him. God was not speaking to himself. He was speaking to two men, Abraham and Gideon.

Now, God asks mankind... Mark 10:51-52 "What do you want me to do for you?" Jesus asked him. The blind man said, "Rabbi, I want to see. Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

Still really weird, Jesus asks a man "What do you want me to do for you?" The man reacts with an answer. Jesus then proceeds to do that thing he asked for.

Again, God reacts to mankind. If he did not react, then he could not interact with us.

If the Calvinist claims that God determined it so it just looks like He's reacting to humans, but it was always His will to have this particular situations, then I can't help that Calvinist. That would be nonsense. Just like it's nonsense to judge a printer for not playing music... just as it's nonsense to judge a man who can only sin... to do perfect goodness.

First off you have heard wrong or who spoke to you misspoke . Calvin asked for guidance from God in his prayers. That is Asking for God to react. Here is a prayer from Calvin . MY GOD, my Father and Preserver, who of thy goodness hast watched over me during the past night, and brought me to this day, grant also that I may spend it wholly in the worship and service of thy most holy deity. Let me not think, or say, or do a single thing which tends not to thy service and submission to thy will, that thus all my actions may aim at thy glory and the salvation of my brethren, while they are taught by my example to serve thee. And as thou art giving light to this world for the purposes of external life by the rays of the sun, so enlighten my mind by the effulgence of thy Spirit, that he may guide me in the way of thy righteousness. To whatever purpose I apply my mind, may the end which I ever propose to myself be thy honour and service. May I expect all happiness from thy grace and goodness only. Let me not attempt any thing whatever that is not pleasing to thee.Grant also, that while I labour for the maintenance of this life, and care for the things which pertain to food and raiment, I may raise my mind above them to the blessed and heavenly life which thou hast promised to thy children. Be pleased also, in manifesting thyself to me as the protector of my soul as well as my body, to strengthen and fortify me against all the assaults of the devil, and deliver me from all the dangers which continually beset us in this life. But seeing it is a small thing to have begun, unless I also persevere, I therefore entreat of thee, O Lord, not only to be my guide and director for this day, but to keep me under thy protection to the very end of life, that thus my whole course may be performed under thy superintendence. As I ought to make progress, do thou add daily more and more to the gifts of thy grace until I wholly adhere to thy Son Jesus Christ, whom we justly regard as the true Sun, shining constantly in our minds. In order to my obtaining of thee these great and manifold blessings, forget, and out of thy infinite mercy, forgive my offences, as thou hast promised that thou wilt do to those who call upon thee in sincerity.
It asks directly for God's assistance ( God's reacting to man or mankind) You present a straw man an seek to destroy it .
Which makes your thread pretty much meaningless. Do some research a simple google search would have done wonders.
Blessings
Bill

 

[preacher4truth]

First off you have heard wrong or who spoke to you misspoke . Calvin asked for guidance from God in his prayers. That is Asking for God to react. Here is a prayer from Calvin . MY GOD, my Father and Preserver, who of thy goodness hast watched over me during the past night, and brought me to this day, grant also that I may spend it wholly in the worship and service of thy most holy deity. Let me not think, or say, or do a single thing which tends not to thy service and submission to thy will, that thus all my actions may aim at thy glory and the salvation of my brethren, while they are taught by my example to serve thee. And as thou art giving light to this world for the purposes of external life by the rays of the sun, so enlighten my mind by the effulgence of thy Spirit, that he may guide me in the way of thy righteousness. To whatever purpose I apply my mind, may the end which I ever propose to myself be thy honour and service. May I expect all happiness from thy grace and goodness only. Let me not attempt any thing whatever that is not pleasing to thee.Grant also, that while I labour for the maintenance of this life, and care for the things which pertain to food and raiment, I may raise my mind above them to the blessed and heavenly life which thou hast promised to thy children. Be pleased also, in manifesting thyself to me as the protector of my soul as well as my body, to strengthen and fortify me against all the assaults of the devil, and deliver me from all the dangers which continually beset us in this life. But seeing it is a small thing to have begun, unless I also persevere, I therefore entreat of thee, O Lord, not only to be my guide and director for this day, but to keep me under thy protection to the very end of life, that thus my whole course may be performed under thy superintendence. As I ought to make progress, do thou add daily more and more to the gifts of thy grace until I wholly adhere to thy Son Jesus Christ, whom we justly regard as the true Sun, shining constantly in our minds. In order to my obtaining of thee these great and manifold blessings, forget, and out of thy infinite mercy, forgive my offences, as thou hast promised that thou wilt do to those who call upon thee in sincerity.
It asks directly for God's assistance ( God's reacting to man or mankind) You present a straw man an seek to destroy it .
Which makes your thread pretty much meaningless. Do some research a simple google search would have done wonders.
Blessings
Bill

That prayer shows true conversion IMO and was a blessing to read. Thanks brother.

 

[ForthAngel]

I've heard Calvinists say that God does not react to mankind, yet this happens in the bible (prayer being a clear example).

I just want to address prayer for the time being. Prayer is for those that God will actually listen to and only those that pray according to his will. Here are a few examples:

Psalm 34
15 The eyes of the Lord are toward the righteous
and his ears toward their cry.
16 The face of the Lord is against those who do evil,
to cut off the memory of them from the earth.
17 When the righteous cry for help, the Lord hears
and delivers them out of all their troubles.
18 The Lord is near to the brokenhearted
and saves the crushed in spirit.
19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous,
but the Lord delivers him out of them all.
20 He keeps all his bones;
not one of them is broken.
21 Affliction will slay the wicked,
and those who hate the righteous will be condemned.
22 The Lord redeems the life of his servants;
none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.

John 14
12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

John 9
30 The man answered, “Why, this is an amazing thing! You do not know where he comes from, and yet he opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him. 32 Never since the world began has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a man born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.” 34 They answered him, “You were born in utter sin, and would you teach us?” And they cast him out.

And then there is this from James:

James 4
4 What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you? 2 You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.

James 5
13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit.

God is not our bellhop at our every beck and call. He listens to those who humble themselves before him and pray in faith and in accordance with his will. There are specific instructions on how we pray and God is not obligated to answer anything. He will if he wills though. Prayer is like anything else - for God's glory, not as a service to us every time we feel we need or want something from him.

 

[John146]

Did God react to Abram before or after He found him in Ur?
How about Moses in Midian?
Or how about David when He sent Samuel to Jesse's house to find him?
Or how about Saul of Tarsus on the Damascus road?


I sensing a pattern here...

God told Jonah to preach the message to Nineveh, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." In forty days did God destroy Nineveh? Why not? Nineveh repented so in turn, God repented. God responded based on Nineveh's response to His word, and God changed His mind and did not destroy Nineveh in forty days.

 

[SovereignGrace]

God told Jonah to preach the message to Nineveh, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." In forty days did God destroy Nineveh? Why not? Nineveh repented so in turn, God repented. God responded based on Nineveh's response to His word, and God changed His mind and did not destroy Nineveh in forty days.

Yet it was God who first initiated this by sending Jonah to them and then they reacted. God instigated this, and then the Ninevahites reacted.

 

[SovereignGrace]

God told Jonah to preach the message to Nineveh, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." In forty days did God destroy Nineveh? Why not? Nineveh repented so in turn, God repented. God responded based on Nineveh's response to His word, and God changed His mind and did not destroy Nineveh in forty days.

Also, this is anthropomorphic language. God is not a man that He should repent.

 

[John146]

Also, this is anthropomorphic language. God is not a man that He should repent.

And yet, He did. God changed His mind based on Nineveh's response to His word.

"So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them."

They were not forced to believe, but simply upon hearing the word of destruction from God, the believed.

 

[Depleted]

I've heard Calvinists say that God does not react to mankind, yet this happens in the bible (prayer being a clear example). There's also a place where God asks a man what he'd like him to do for man.

Genesis 18:25 "Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly? 26So the LORD said, "If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account. 27And Abraham replied, "Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes."

Man questions God. God reacts and answers. It's clear that the context of this conversation between God and Abraham is not... Abraham shut up and obey. The context is Abraham can talk to God and expect God to react with an answer. The context is Abraham can question God's will. The context is Abraham can argue with God. And God is okay with this.

God reacts by listening to us and responding. He gives us the time and the day graciously. He is personal, not a "you shut up and do what I say kind of God" for a lack of better words. The situation between Abraham and God as described above seems really striking to me. If you read it carefully, I think it's extremely bold of Abraham... even though he is being humble by saying he is but "dust and ashes."

I think Abraham had some doubts about what God was doing. He was concerned with the death of innocent people definitely and perhaps the death of not so innocent people as well, but that is only a perhaps.

In other scriptures, there is a character by the name of Gideon. He also wondered and doubted if God was commanding him. God asked for a miracle. God reacted and gave Gideon a miracle. Judges 6:39 Then Gideon said to God, "Do not be angry with me. Let me make just one more request. Allow me one more test with the fleece, but this time make the fleece dry and let the ground be covered with dew."

Like Abraham, Gideon showed humility... still seems audacious, but as you can see God gives mankind the time and the day, graciously. He listens and reacts to our prayers. According to Calvinism, this was a man that was regenerated and acted in his own nature-will. God reacted to him. God was not speaking to himself. He was speaking to two men, Abraham and Gideon.

Now, God asks mankind... Mark 10:51-52 "What do you want me to do for you?" Jesus asked him. The blind man said, "Rabbi, I want to see. Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

Still really weird, Jesus asks a man "What do you want me to do for you?" The man reacts with an answer. Jesus then proceeds to do that thing he asked for.

Again, God reacts to mankind. If he did not react, then he could not interact with us.

If the Calvinist claims that God determined it so it just looks like He's reacting to humans, but it was always His will to have this particular situations, then I can't help that Calvinist. That would be nonsense. Just like it's nonsense to judge a printer for not playing music... just as it's nonsense to judge a man who can only sin... to do perfect goodness.

I have heard nonCalvinists believe the moon is made of cheese. Should I prove otherwise first, or simply assume I might have heard wrong and save myself the effort?

I'm lazy. I choose the latter. Try it some time.

 

[trofimus]

And yet, He did. God changed His mind based on Nineveh's response to His word.

"So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them."

They were not forced to believe, but simply upon hearing the word of destruction from God, the believed.

Nobody is forced to believe. So...?

 

[Calmador]

Hearsay.

The above statement needs to be corroborated and qualified as to what it means. So far it remains an unsubstantiated claim and is completely vague. The entire OP then continues to build off of this ambiguous and incomplete implication, thus it is faulty at best.

I don't see the problem? How is it vague?

 

[John146]

Nobody is forced to believe. So...?

If God predestined the "elect" to believe then it is forced belief by God to man. Man has no choice in the matter. That is not biblical belief.

 

[trofimus]

If God predestined the "elect" to believe then it is forced belief by God to man. Man has no choice in the matter. That is not biblical belief.

No, predestination does not force to anything.

I have said that many times.

Future is certain, but not necessary.

 

[John146]

No, predestination does not force to anything.

I have said that many times.

Future is certain, but not necessary.

"I've predestined you to be saved, but the choice is yours to believe, but you're going to choose to believe because I've predestined you to believe." Makes no sense.

 

[trofimus]

"I've predestined you to be saved, but the choice is yours to believe, but you're going to choose to believe because I've predestined you to believe." Makes no sense.

Of course it makes no sense when you talk like this.

But Calvinism does not talk like this. You must react to what we really say.

 

[Calmador]

We believe that God does not react to man in their fallen state. IOW, they don't first seek Him and then He seeks them in return.

God does react to ppl, but those He reacts to are His ppl, the elect.

That's beside the point. A lot of Calvinists point that God does not react to something beyond himself. Yet, he does. Fallen or saved, this still shows God looking at us and reacting. A saved man may be coming from a Godly state, but he is using that state to speak to God. A saved man is still there. God reacted.

Otherwise you'd have to say God is talking to himself.

When Abraham asked God... Abraham was speaking from himself. He spoke from his lack of understanding. He had doubts about how God was about to act. This lack of knowledge and understanding is not a God attribute. It's a human attribute. God reacted to Abraham.

As for the fallen, God reacting to the fallen has happened a few times as far I remember. God reacting to the fallen is enough to say God can react to the fallen.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?” [SUP]10 [/SUP]He (Fallen man) answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And he (God reacting) said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

[SUP]12 [/SUP]The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”


^ Parenthesis added for better understanding.

The serpent is also fallen. The serpent did something. God reacted by cursing the serpent.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]So the Lord God (God reacting) said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[SUP][a][/SUP] and hers;
he will crush[SUP][b][/SUP] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”



I suspect another situation like this is when Jesus was in front of the governor, Jesus responded, reacted. I'm not sure if he was a fallen man or not, but the above examples are more clear.

11 Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor (I'd think he is a fallen man), who questioned Him: “Are You the King of the Jews?” “You have said so,” Jesus answered. (God reacted
"IOW, they don't first seek Him and then He seeks them in return"

^ If that's what Calvinists mean by react, it be nice if they just said that instead of using a word that does not mean that. Reaction is a simple word. Either way, God does react, both to the fallen and the saved as shown above.