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Thread: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

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    Default James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    Actually, James's faith with works was not opposing what Paul has said about faith in Jesus Christ without works.

    Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Since Paul was given the right hand of fellowship with James....

    Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

    And there is no other gospel... as stated earlier in that epistle to the Galatians...

    Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    Then what was James talking about? James 2nd chapter provided at this link below.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...+2&version=KJV

    James was talking about the church's willful neglect and abuse of the poor starting in the very first verse of that 2 nd chapter of James. James even cited an abuse where the church after service was giving a kind of benediction of faith to the departing poor, "Be warmed and be filled" as if by voicing faith in God's Providence to the poor that it will somehow be divinely supernaturally done WITHOUT meeting the poor's immediate needs of perishing from the elements or starvation.

    So James was NOT talking about faith in Jesus Christ at all for salvation for that faith is always without works, BUT James was addressing the church's verbalization of their faith in God's Providence to the poor that they better lead by example or else in the eyes of the poor, the church's faith in God's Providence is dead and it will not profit the poor nor save the poor by the church's lack of setting the example of having that faith in God's Providence for the church's needs tomorrow by meeting the immediate needs of the poor today.

    That is the kind of faith that James was talking about requiring works; an example if a church is going to verbalize it.

    James gave reference of that kind of faith in His Providence by referring to Abraham's offering up of Isaac on the altar. Christians that converted from Judaism are quite familiar with that particular faith mentioned in that story because the place was named as such after that kind of faith which was about God providing; not about faith in Jesus Christ without works to be saved.

    Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?8And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.............13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

    So James was not opposing Paul because many readers and churches and ministries are applying James's words wrongly. James was never talking about the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation for that has to be without works. You cannot call Jesus Christ the Saviour if He really did not do it when it relies upon you in doing works to be saved or to be kept saved.

    James was talking about verbalizing faith in God's Providence that those who say such things to get out of helping the poor, should repent by leading by example in meeting the immediate needs of the poor today and trust God to provide for the church's needs tomorrows.

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    Default Re: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Enow View Post
    Actually, James's faith with works was not opposing what Paul has said about faith in Jesus Christ without works.

    Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Since Paul was given the right hand of fellowship with James....

    Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

    And there is no other gospel... as stated earlier in that epistle to the Galatians...

    Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    Then what was James talking about? James 2nd chapter provided at this link below.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...+2&version=KJV

    James was talking about the church's willful neglect and abuse of the poor starting in the very first verse of that 2 nd chapter of James. James even cited an abuse where the church after service was giving a kind of benediction of faith to the departing poor, "Be warmed and be filled" as if by voicing faith in God's Providence to the poor that it will somehow be divinely supernaturally done WITHOUT meeting the poor's immediate needs of perishing from the elements or starvation.

    So James was NOT talking about faith in Jesus Christ at all for salvation for that faith is always without works, BUT James was addressing the church's verbalization of their faith in God's Providence to the poor that they better lead by example or else in the eyes of the poor, the church's faith in God's Providence is dead and it will not profit the poor nor save the poor by the church's lack of setting the example of having that faith in God's Providence for the church's needs tomorrow by meeting the immediate needs of the poor today.

    That is the kind of faith that James was talking about requiring works; an example if a church is going to verbalize it.

    James gave reference of that kind of faith in His Providence by referring to Abraham's offering up of Isaac on the altar. Christians that converted from Judaism are quite familiar with that particular faith mentioned in that story because the place was named as such after that kind of faith which was about God providing; not about faith in Jesus Christ without works to be saved.

    Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?8And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.............13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

    So James was not opposing Paul because many readers and churches and ministries are applying James's words wrongly. James was never talking about the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation for that has to be without works. You cannot call Jesus Christ the Saviour if He really did not do it when it relies upon you in doing works to be saved or to be kept saved.

    James was talking about verbalizing faith in God's Providence that those who say such things to get out of helping the poor, should repent by leading by example in meeting the immediate needs of the poor today and trust God to provide for the church's needs tomorrows.
    Maybe we should start at the beginning...who is the book of James addressed? Don't look at commentaries, but look to James 1:1 for the answer.
    JoDel likes this.

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    Default Re: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    There is no vs. as context sets it all straight....

    Before God men are justified by FAITH void of works <--Paul in Romans

    The above faith is SEEN by men based upon the works that follow <---James

    The works do not save or keep saved, but at are the results of the faith and salvation one already possesses (Paul in Romans)

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    Default Re: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Maybe we should start at the beginning...who is the book of James addressed? Don't look at commentaries, but look to James 1:1 for the answer.
    It is still to the believers in Jesus Christ as James did not preach any other gospel. He was addressing believers in how they walk in Him in the first chapter and began addressing a church by its practice in relations to the poor in the next chapter.
    dcontroversal and Grace777x70 like this.

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    Default Re: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    Paul did not preach faith without works, He taught true faith will produce works.

    He taught salvation was by faith not works. All James did was reiterate what Paul taught, (actually I believe his letter is before pauls, so paul would have followed james) That those saved by true saving faith will produce work, (which is exacty hwat Paul said) thus if you claim to have faith, but have zero zip nada works, Your faith is dead (it never saved you, because your faith never had life)
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Enow View Post
    It is still to the believers in Jesus Christ as James did not preach any other gospel. He was addressing believers in how they walk in Him in the first chapter and began addressing a church by its practice in relations to the poor in the next chapter.
    When Scripture uses the phrase "twelve tribes" it is ALWAYS a reference to the nation of Israel and NEVER used in reference to a called out group from that nation. It is not referring to Jewish Christians. This would contradict every other usage in Scripture.

    Obviously, there were those to whom James was writing that had not received the word and their souls were not saved.

    James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.



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    Default Re: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    There is no vs. as context sets it all straight....
    Context as Paul's faith in Jesus Christ is without works as James faith in God's Providence has to come with works as in an example set by the one verbalizing that faith.

    Before God men are justified by FAITH void of works <--Paul in Romans
    True, but it is also before men in testimony in how we are saved for men to see and surrender in placing all their hopes in the Lord for all things.

    The above faith is SEEN by men based upon the works that follow <---James
    Only when verbalized to others thus requiring an example of that faith in God's Providence in the eyes of others. Many individual believers are to apply faith in God to provide as they are requested to pray for His Providence as well.

    But for a pastor to talk about faith in God's Providence to the congregation and yet look to the members to tithe and keep their pledges of givings and on top of that, warns them they are robbing from God if they don't, kind of hard to see that pastor's faith or that church's faith in His Providence. To me, that faith is dead and will not profit me at all when the pastor nor the church have faith in God to provide by raising up cheerful givers since the giving is between God & the giver anyway.

    The works do not save or keep saved, but at are the results of the faith and salvation one already possesses (Paul in Romans)
    1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    2 Peter 2:1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.....18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

    Our salvation is not dependent on works, but what we build on that foundation laid by Jesus Christ will be judged, thus indicative that works of the flesh which defiles the temple of God will not be such an apparent result of faith and salvation that one already possesses, but that believer is still saved, even when they stop believing in Him any more.

    Still, it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Best for believers & even former believers reading this to call on the name of the Lord now for help to discern the lies that turned them away from believing in Him, and lean on Him all the time for help to depart from iniquity and to follow Him as His disciples so we can be found abiding in Him by the grace of God before the Bridegroom comes for the abiding bride.

    2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.


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    Default Re: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Enow View Post
    Context as Paul's faith in Jesus Christ is without works as James faith in God's Providence has to come with works as in an example set by the one verbalizing that faith.

    1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    [/video]
    At the JSOC, there will be some that will not receive rewards but suffer loss because their works were burned. Their life on earth was squandered on carnal living instead of upon living for the Lord according to Scripture. They were saved because they had the right foundation, Jesus Christ. We must be careful how we build upon that foundation.

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    Default Re: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    Paul did not preach faith without works, He taught true faith will produce works.


    How and where did Paul preached that works proves true faith in Jesus Christ?

    Read these scripture below to see how works does not always testifies that a believer is saved or not saved.


    1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    2 Peter 2:1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.....18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

    Our salvation is not dependent on works, but what we build on that foundation laid by Jesus Christ will be judged, thus indicative that works of the flesh which defiles the temple of God will not be such an apparent result of faith and salvation that one already possesses, but that believer is still saved, even when they stop believing in Him any more.

    Still, it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Best for believers & even former believers reading this, to call on the name of the Lord now for help to discern the lies that turned them away from believing in Him, and lean on Him all the time for help to depart from iniquity and to follow Him as His disciples so we can be found abiding in Him by the grace of God before the Bridegroom comes for the abiding bride.

    2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

    So our goal as His disciples is to seek the good of other believers and even former believers in the hopes they will go to Him for help to depart from iniquity so they can be received as vessels unto honor in His House which is the eternal glory to obtain that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus.

    2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

    2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.


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    Default Re: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    True faith will have a corresponding action of some kind.

    Let's look at what James says about faith & it's corresponding "work" in relation to having eternal life now and forever because we heard the message of Christ and believed on Him - then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13

    It is very interesting that inJames's examples of faith "being made alive" by a work or a corresponding action.
    Both Rahab and Abraham each did a one time corresponding action to demonstrate their faith.

    Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac on the alter. Rahab received the spies.
    Both one time events in their life - God calls this faith in action.


    James 2:20-25 (NASB)
    20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

    22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

    23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

    25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

    Paul and James completely go together and do not cancel each other out nor contradict the basic truth of believing in Christ brings eternal life when we hear the true message of Christ's work and that we have the forgiveness of sins.


    We do the very same thing when we hear the message of Christ and we believe and then God seals us with the Holy Spirit. This is our faith
    with a corresponding action or a "work".

    Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
    13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth,
    the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    Jesus said to do the work of God was to believe in the Son.

    Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
    8 But what does it say? "
    THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

    9
    that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

    10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

    This is faith with corresponding action - or a work. This is how we are saved by grace through faith just like Paul said.

    James talk about "faith" and "works" is in relation to helping out our fellow man that is in need.

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    Default Re: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    At the JSOC, there will be some that will not receive rewards but suffer loss because their works were burned. Their life on earth was squandered on carnal living instead of upon living for the Lord according to Scripture. They were saved because they had the right foundation, Jesus Christ. We must be careful how we build upon that foundation.
    Not sure what JSOC mean there, but just to clarify, God will judge His House first at the pre trib rapture event ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ) as we can entrust Him with the keeping of the souls of those saints disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper and thus excommunicated as castaways in left behind to be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

    1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    So there is more of a consequence than just the loss of rewards of crowns; an unrepentant believer can become a castaway.

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    Default Re: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    An interesting fact about Abraham being declared righteous by God Himself is that he was declared to be righteous by God because Abraham "believed God " - 15 years before he "offered up Isaac".

    His faith was completed as a result of already being declared righteous by God. Knowing the truth about what God says about us releases true faith to grow and be manifested. There is a false way of trying to create works in order to create and maintain righteousness. This is eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

    True righteousness which comes only from God's work in Christ always comes when we believe what God says is true. There are "fruits of righteousness" as James talks about which shows up in helping our fellow man in need but they do not create righteousness.

    Being righteous in Christ comes first because of His work on the cross and resurrection. Getting this backwards creates a religion of self-righteousness and actually denies the work of Christ Himself.

    Preach and teach the good news that Christ alone is our righteousness and then the fruit of His life will be manifested in "deeds of righteousness" as He bears His fruit in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see the love and grace that our loving Father has for them.

    We will see corresponding action or works that glorify God.
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    Default Re: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Enow View Post


    How and where did Paul preached that works proves true faith in Jesus Christ?

    Read these scripture below to see how works does not always testifies that a believer is saved or not saved.


    1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    2 Peter 2:1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.....18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

    Our salvation is not dependent on works, but what we build on that foundation laid by Jesus Christ will be judged, thus indicative that works of the flesh which defiles the temple of God will not be such an apparent result of faith and salvation that one already possesses, but that believer is still saved, even when they stop believing in Him any more.

    Still, it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Best for believers & even former believers reading this, to call on the name of the Lord now for help to discern the lies that turned them away from believing in Him, and lean on Him all the time for help to depart from iniquity and to follow Him as His disciples so we can be found abiding in Him by the grace of God before the Bridegroom comes for the abiding bride.

    2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

    So our goal as His disciples is to seek the good of other believers and even former believers in the hopes they will go to Him for help to depart from iniquity so they can be received as vessels unto honor in His House which is the eternal glory to obtain that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus.

    2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

    2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

    eph 2: 8-10

    saved by faith apart from works.

    Created new in christ, FOR GOOD WORKS.

    Paul taught that whoever is saved will produce good works. He did not say they everyone would be super Christians with amazing works, But he did say they will have some work. Unlike those few in James, who were hearers but not doers.
    Grace777x70 likes this.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Enow View Post
    Not sure what JSOC mean there, but just to clarify, God will judge His House first at the pre trib rapture event ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ) as we can entrust Him with the keeping of the souls of those saints disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper and thus excommunicated as castaways in left behind to be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

    1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    So there is more of a consequence than just the loss of rewards of crowns; an unrepentant believer can become a castaway.
    JSOC = Judgment Seat of Christ

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    Default Re: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Grace777x70 View Post
    True faith will have a corresponding action of some kind.

    Let's look at what James says about faith & it's corresponding "work" in relation to having eternal life now and forever because we heard the message of Christ and believed on Him - then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13

    It is very interesting that inJames's examples of faith "being made alive" by a work or a corresponding action.
    Both Rahab and Abraham each did a one time corresponding action to demonstrate their faith.

    Abraham believed God and offered up Isaac on the alter. Rahab received the spies.
    Both one time events in their life - God calls this faith in action.


    James 2:20-25 (NASB)
    20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

    22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

    23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

    24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

    25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

    Paul and James completely go together and do not cancel each other out nor contradict the basic truth of believing in Christ brings eternal life when we hear the true message of Christ's work and that we have the forgiveness of sins.


    We do the very same thing when we hear the message of Christ and we believe and then God seals us with the Holy Spirit. This is our faith
    with a corresponding action or a "work".

    Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
    13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth,
    the gospel of your salvationhaving also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

    Jesus said to do the work of God was to believe in the Son.

    Romans 10:8-10 (NASB)
    8 But what does it say? "
    THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

    9
    that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

    10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

    This is faith with corresponding action - or a work. This is how we are saved by grace through faith just like Paul said.

    James talk about "faith" and "works" is in relation to helping out our fellow man that is in need.
    Thank you for sharing as I am mostly in agreement but there is something to add regarding believers that fell away from the faith to even not believe in Him any more as they are still saved.

    2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

    So our goal as His disciples is to seek the good of other believers and even former believers in the hopes they will go to Him for help to discern the lies that turned them away from even believing in Him so as to lean on Him for help to depart from iniquity so they can be received as vessels unto honor in His House which is the eternal glory to obtain that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus.

    2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

    2 Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

    John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

    So for every believer out there, you CANNOT know if you have been led astray until you go before that throne of grace for help from your Good Shepherd to discern good and evil so as to lean on Him to depart from iniquity as well as from the evil one.

    1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

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    Default Re: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    JSOC = Judgment Seat of Christ
    Thanks for the clarification.
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    Default Re: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post

    Paul taught that whoever is saved will produce good works. He did not say they everyone would be super Christians with amazing works, But he did say they will have some work. Unlike those few in James, who were hearers but not doers.
    Scripture from Paul stating that all believers will produce works...

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    Default Re: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Scripture from Paul stating that all believers will produce works...
    I just gave you 1

    Eph 2: 8-10

    we are created for good works, which God prepared before had that we will walk in them.

    A christian will not continue to live as he was, Something will change, That change is works.
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    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    eph 2: 8-10

    saved by faith apart from works.

    Created new in christ, FOR GOOD WORKS.

    Paul taught that whoever is saved will produce good works. He did not say they everyone would be super Christians with amazing works, But he did say they will have some work. Unlike those few in James, who were hearers but not doers.
    They are supposed to when living this reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ but many saved believers will not be found abiding in Him when the Bridegroom comes. Indeed, many have fallen away from the faith in so many ways that some do not believe in Him any more, and yet they are still saved which is why unless they go to that throne of grace for help to discern and depart from iniquity, they run the risk of being left behind at the pre trib rapture event in becoming vessels unto dishonor in His House.

    That means those who do not follow Him that get left behind at the pre trib rapture are still saved as they are in His House still BUT as vessels unto dishonor, testifying to the power of God in salvation in Christ Jesus for all whom believe even in His name.

    Even I am trusting the Lord Jesus Christ as my Good Shepherd to help me to follow Him by the grace of God since we are living in these latter days where faith is hard to find.

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    Default Re: James's Faith With Works VS Paul's Faith Without Works

    ...who is the book of James addressed?
    To all followers of Jesus Christ who desire to walk with the Lord instead of being separated from Him... whether they be Jewish believers or gentile believers

    Glad to help out... let me know if you have any other hard questions that need to be answered




    It is not referring to Jewish Christians
    If it wasn't then James would have had to be teaching old testament law which is NOT what He taught






    Obviously, there were those to whom James was writing that had not received the word and their souls were not saved.
    And He was teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, not OT law... therefore what He taught is applicable to ALL followers of Jesus Christ and the content of his writings were authored by the Lord Himself which is obvious since God decided to have this book placed in His Word.





    James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
    There are many today that have made a confession of faith in Jesus Christ that need to be taught this...

    Numerous places in the New Testament where we are instructed to walk after the Spirit not after the flesh which is what this is referring to
    Enow likes this.

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