The truth behind the Law

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Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,408
63
48
#1
It seems that I have seen this debate on almost every thread I look at. So I thought it would be nice to see if we can not move that whole debate to one place.

However I would love to see this go as orderly as we can get it. I know that won't be an easy thing to do, so I am going to ask that we please keep this down to one passage at a time. One chapter, is find. However as I have seen, folks seem to think that if enough scripture is placed out at one time, then they think they win. That in my mind is just a way to muddy the water. It also seems to be an attempt to to not answer questions that are meant to make a point. Then that seems to be done when the other party seems to have no real answer.

I am going to do my best to use a translation of the Bible I think we can all agree on. The NKJ. As habit I use the NLB, The old English a bit confusing for me, ( am after all Dyslexic) so I thought we should all stay with the same translation, this seems to be a good compromise.

Also I would like to ask that if you can't stop your from hinting at calling others a liar, please don't post, as that is not the way to show Christ living with in you. This is the ground rules folks, if you can live with them, grate. If not then I ask that every one just stop replying to anyone that they see as braking this simple set of rules.

As for me, I grow wiry of such actions, and as has been seen from other post, I will stop replying, until my question is answered. So I wish to start this off, with just one question. I have made this point my self many times in life. It gets one of 2 reactions.

1 no answer at all.

2 A reply that is so full of scripture, that when you read them all, and ten take time to study it out, you may be a week getting back to answer it.

It is this that has prompted the ground rules I have placed. We all seem to serve HaShem, (if my use of Hebrew is a bit over the top for you, please let me know, I will do best to change it for you). That being said, we should all know that he is nothing if not orderly. Being as we are meant to be like Him,
1Co 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Lets act so though we are trying to do so. Sorry for the long intro, I just seen no other way to do this.

Now we all know that if we are to bass our side on any one passage, it should be,
Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
Mat 5:18 “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

I am going to start by asking, how does this passage fit your teachings? I do ask once more that we stay inside this passage, and if one must go outside this book, please make sure any passage you use is with in the context of the passage in question.

I will give my teaching on this to kick off this show.

I understand that this one passage may have been removed from it's true contextual intent for many 100's of years now. So I hope that you will not over look the following. As it seems that the one word fulfill or fulfilled, is the hot part of this passage, do we know what they are, and what the true definition of the Hebrew and Greek words used in the text are? Knowing the true meaning of the words first used, can make a world of difference.
From the Hebrew, we have the word, Strongs number is 4137.
Here we find,
plēroō

1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full

1a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally

1a1) I abound, I am liberally supplied
In the Hebrew it is
Mowladah
From 3205, brith
Don't get mad at me, I am only giving you what Strongs said. I myself am not real sure the word given in Hebrew is even a true Hebrew word. Should anyone ask, I will find out for sure. For now this is what Strongs has.

Working with this, we can say that Yeshua came to do one of 2 things. If we look at the Hebrew, we can say He came to give a rebirth of the Law, or that He came to give new birth.
From the greek we an say he came to fill, furnish, or supply.
What we can not say, is that He came to destroy, abolish, or do away with. To say so, one would have to remove most of what He said. As He told us, not to think that way, then backed this by telling us that not one jot or tittle would be removed, until it was all fulfilled. Please not that He said all. Not a part, or as much as we see fit. Also keep in mind that we are on earth now, and so it has not been done away with as yet.
That all comes down to one thing. If this passage means what it is telling us, then the Law has not been removed. Placing the burden on any that wish to remove it, to first remove this passage, or it's meaning. As I have opened the door to a debate that seems to have no end, and f the ground roles are followed, any passages out side of this one should show that the law was removed. Once more, please work this one passage at a time. Unlike many people, I do understand that I am human, and can be wrong. I do hope you understand that it will take a lot of work to show me that I am.
Ok folks let keep it clean, follow the rules, and lets have fun.
May HaShem guide this discussion to His end, and not to an end that pleases man. AMEN
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
332
83
#2
I agree and there is no need for me to repeat what you say...
but I don't have a NKJ so might not be able to take part. God bless you and help you !
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,408
63
48
#3
I agree and there is no need for me to repeat what you say...
but I don't have a NKJ so might not be able to take part. God bless you and help you !
You have a PC, Blueletter bible is open for everyone, and you can Copy and past from there. If you like use your KJ or what ever you have. I am not going be so hard as to think that everyone will have the same thing, It was just a though is all.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,408
63
48
#4
I agree and there is no need for me to repeat what you say...
but I don't have a NKJ so might not be able to take part. God bless you and help you !
You are right though, not every one uses the same Bible so I should not have put that there. Besides, with me asking everyone to be follow any kind of order, I don't think many will post on this.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
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#5
Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.


The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now, and the law of liberty in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ). The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law and are NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.

People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.

If someone wants to observe a particular day , festivals or eat or not eat some kinds of foods..etc - then they are free to do so. These have no bearing on one's salvation or righteousness as all that is based on the finished work of Christ.

It's where people are saying "You must observe these things or do these things in the Law or you are not obeying God" - that's where the twisting comes in and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ.


This is an anti-Christ belief system religion which has the "appearance" of good but it is really denying the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work. Hebrews 4:10
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,408
63
48
#6
Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.


The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now, and the law of liberty in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ). The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation. Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.

Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law and are NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.

People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.

If someone wants to observe a particular day , festivals or eat or not eat some kinds of foods..etc - then they are free to do so. These have no bearing on one's salvation or righteousness as all that is based on the finished work of Christ.

It's where people are saying "You must observe these things or do these things in the Law or you are not obeying God" - that's where the twisting comes in and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ.


This is an anti-Christ belief system religion which has the "appearance" of good but it is really denying the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work. Hebrews 4:10
Now you are the kind of person I would like to talk to more on this. We don't see it the same way, so that in mind can lead to a better understanding of this topic. I am going to look over the passages you gave. Yet I would like your take on Mat. 5:17-18, if you don't mind. Like I said it seems to be to stumbling block for both sides of this debate. So lets work that one out, then we can move on, with a better understanding of the other person, and why they follow what they do. Does this sound good to you?
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
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#7
Now you are the kind of person I would like to talk to more on this. We don't see it the same way, so that in mind can lead to a better understanding of this topic. I am going to look over the passages you gave. Yet I would like your take on Mat. 5:17-18, if you don't mind. Like I said it seems to be to stumbling block for both sides of this debate. So lets work that one out, then we can move on, with a better understanding of the other person, and why they follow what they do. Does this sound good to you?
Sure...sounds good to me. I will go over Matt. 5:17-18 as well. My take is that Jesus has already fulfilled the law requirements for us - not that we "do the law".

Here is an excellent teaching on what did Jesus mean when He states "He did not come to destroy the law and prophets - but to fulfill it." It is only 6 minutes long.


[video=youtube;y91KhArgUhQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y91KhArgUhQ[/video]
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
#8
Hello RainRider,

"“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. "

Jesus reference to "not coming to abolish the Law or the Prophets" is referring to the fact that Jesus did not come to just do away with the Law, i.e. He didn't come to cast it aside. His reference to fulfill the Law is just that, as he didn't come to cast it aside, but to meet its righteous requirements being kinned to us in the flesh. Christ met the righteous requirements of the Law on every believers behalf.

Regarding the mentioning of the prophets, he came to fulfill all that was written of Him by them.

"
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. "

The above scripture is not inferring that the Law will be fulfilled by human beings, because that was the whole purpose for Christ coming in the flesh and fulfilling it on our behalf, because we couldn't. Not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of the pen will disappear from the Law, because Jesus fulfilled the Law completely and fully.

What that scripture is not saying is that Jesus came to perpetuate the Law, i.e. He didn't come to keep it going. He came to fulfill it and bring it to its fulfillment.

When we fail at the Law, it brings wrath. That is why Paul said, "For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law—I stopped trying to meet all its requirements—so that I might live for God."

Under this new covenant in His blood, we obtain salvation by trusting in Christ as the One who provided salvation for us, completely and fully. When we bring in other requirements for salvation such as keeping the Sabbath, observing the ten commandments, abstaining from foods, then we are attempting to obtain--by our own works--what Jesus already fulfilled and provided.

By having faith in Christ we are credited with Christ's righteousness, His fulfillment of the Law and the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins, was poured out on Him.

We have been reconciled to God and credited with righteousness through faith in Christ and not by the observance of the Law.

 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#9
Hello RainRider,

"“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. "

Jesus reference to "not coming to abolish the Law or the Prophets" is referring to the fact that Jesus did not come to just do away with the Law, i.e. He didn't come to cast it aside. His reference to fulfill the Law is just that, as he didn't come to cast it aside, but to meet its righteous requirements being kinned to us in the flesh. Christ met the righteous requirements of the Law on every believers behalf.

Regarding the mentioning of the prophets, he came to fulfill all that was written of Him by them.

"
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. "

The above scripture is not inferring that the Law will be fulfilled by human beings, because that was the whole purpose for Christ coming in the flesh and fulfilling it on our behalf, because we couldn't. Not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of the pen will disappear from the Law, because Jesus fulfilled the Law completely and fully.

What that scripture is not saying is that Jesus came to perpetuate the Law, i.e. He didn't come to keep it going. He came to fulfill it and bring it to its fulfillment.

When we fail at the Law, it brings wrath. That is why Paul said, "For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law—I stopped trying to meet all its requirements—so that I might live for God."

Under this new covenant in His blood, we obtain salvation by trusting in Christ as the One who provided salvation for us, completely and fully. When we bring in other requirements for salvation such as keeping the Sabbath, observing the ten commandments, abstaining from foods, then we are attempting to obtain--by our own works--what Jesus already fulfilled and provided.

By having faith in Christ we are credited with Christ's righteousness, His fulfillment of the Law and the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins, was poured out on Him.

We have been reconciled to God and credited with righteousness through faith in Christ and not by the observance of the Law.


Well said brother!

We are dead to the law, been released from the law and not under the law but under grace only in the New Covenant and now alive unto God. For we have died and our life is hidden with Christ in God. Col. 3:3
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,408
63
48
#10
Paul who knew the law better then anyone had this to say about the purpose of the law.


The purpose of the law was :

1) To reveal our sinful state - Rom 3:20

2) To inflame sin - Rom 7:8

3) To minister death in us - Rom 7:10-11

4) To lead us to Christ - Gal 3:24


You use the word was, however as Paul said it IS to point out our sin, makes a world of difference when looked at from what is said, and what we see, or wish to see.

The law is good, holy and spiritual but we are in the flesh. Jesus fulfilled all the law! When we read the law we should be seeing Jesus in it. Jesus did not save us so that we could go back to the law.

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is how we live now, and the law of liberty in Christ Jesus and the law of love, the law of faith ( the Law is NOT of faith - the just shall live by faith ). The law of Christ - Himself is how we live now.


Be that as it may, and knowing that Yeshua is HaShem, then are not His laws the same Laws that are given by HaShem? If not please show me one passage that will show your point in this.

But the purpose of the law was not for righteousness or salvation at all, it was to manifest sin in our lives, so that the purpose of grace which is in Jesus is to manifest salvation.
Grace does not set aside the law, but completely satisfied it.
Do you not know that even in OT times the Law did not bring salvation? It was then, and always will be by faith.

Rom 4:3 For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”

That comes from Gen. 15:6, so we now know that the salvation by works is not a fitting argument for this topic. I understand that you made no claim to that, I just wish to make it clear that the Bible does not, has not, and never willl say that salvation has ever came by the work of mans hand.


Christians are dead to the Law, been released from the Law and are NOT under the Law. It can't get any plainer than that.

People are free to do whatever they want in relation to the Law - it does not make one righteous nor is it for salvation.

If someone wants to observe a particular day , festivals or eat or not eat some kinds of foods..etc - then they are free to do so. These have no bearing on one's salvation or righteousness as all that is based on the finished work of Christ.


If this is right, then please, Give me scripture. I can on the other hand give you many passages that will show my side. Though due to my own rules for this, I will give you just one at this time.

Act 22:3
“I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers' law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today.

I do ask that read this in context please. However for one to say that Paul told us we do not need the Law, would they not first need to remove his words in this passage?


It's where people are saying "You must observe these things or do these things in the Law or you are not obeying God" - that's where the twisting comes in and it is a perversion of the gospel of the grace of Christ.
This is an anti-Christ belief system religion which has the "appearance" of good but it is really denying the Lord Jesus Christ's finished work. Hebrews 4:10
You do not find it sad that what you say of others, they may also say of you?
As for following the Law, or not obeying HaShem. Why not not let the Word speak for it's self.
1Jo 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.


Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

To make the claim you have, "
This is an anti-Christ belief" To some may come across as you placing a judgment on them, that is not your to make, please re-frame from this kind of thing moving foreword. It is not only an attempt to degrade the understanding of others, it is not showing a Christ like mind set. Thank you for your understanding on this.
I do wish to say, that had I taken that road and turned that same phrase back on you, I would have scripture to back my teaching. As I am not, there is need to go further. Once more thank you for showing restraint in the use in of phrases like that.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
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#11
You use the word was, however as Paul said it IS to point out our sin, makes a world of difference when looked at from what is said, and what we see, or wish to see.


[/COLOR]
Be that as it may, and knowing that Yeshua is HaShem, then are not His laws the same Laws that are given by HaShem? If not please show me one passage that will show your point in this.



Do you not know that even in OT times the Law did not bring salvation? It was then, and always will be by faith.
[/SIZE]
Rom 4:3 For the Scriptures tell us, “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”

That comes from Gen. 15:6, so we now know that the salvation by works is not a fitting argument for this topic. I understand that you made no claim to that, I just wish to make it clear that the Bible does not, has not, and never willl say that salvation has ever came by the work of mans hand.




If this is right, then please, Give me scripture. I can on the other hand give you many passages that will show my side. Though due to my own rules for this, I will give you just one at this time.

Act 22:3
“I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers' law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today.

I do ask that read this in context please. However for one to say that Paul told us we do not need the Law, would they not first need to remove his words in this passage?




You do not find it sad that what you say of others, they may also say of you?
As for following the Law, or not obeying HaShem. Why not not let the Word speak for it's self.
1Jo 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.


Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

To make the claim you have, "
This is an anti-Christ belief" To some may come across as you placing a judgment on them, that is not your to make, please re-frame from this kind of thing moving foreword. It is not only an attempt to degrade the understanding of others, it is not showing a Christ like mind set. Thank you for your understanding on this.
I do wish to say, that had I taken that road and turned that same phrase back on you, I would have scripture to back my teaching. As I am not, there is need to go further. Once more thank you for showing restraint in the use in of phrases like that.


Anything that replaces the life of Christ is an anti-Christ belief system and it is based on the world's way of thinking. This includes the carnal keeping of laws from the Old Covenant which is now a goner and has been replaced with the New Covenant.

I have been in many debates with Law-Keepers and it is a useless endeavor and a complete waste of time - only the Holy Spirit can illuminate the scriptures to reveal the work of Christ to all of us.

Titus 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.


Ahwatukee in post #8 has given the perfect answer to Jesus fulfilling the law and the prophets.

I wish you well and may our Father grant unto you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Last edited:
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
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0
#12
Here is a great article that speaks about Matt. 5:17-18 for those interested.

Matthew 5:17-19 and the "Law"

Do Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:17-19 tell Christians they must keep the seventh-day Sabbath? Some people believe these verses make Sabbath-keeping binding on Christians. Others conclude the Sabbath is not in view in this passage. To discover the answer, let us begin by quoting the verses in question:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."


We see right away that Jesus did not mention the Sabbath or the Ten Commandments in these verses. To read Jesus’ statement as having these laws specifically in mind is to bring in ideas that were not stated by Jesus.


Nonetheless, there are certain phrases in this text that need further study: Jesus’ assertion that he did not come to abolish the Law; that he came to fulfill it; that not the smallest part of the Law would disappear till everything was accomplished; that whoever broke the commandments he was speaking about or taught others to break them would be of little reputation in the kingdom.

What do all these things mean in terms of the Sabbath? By looking closely at the key phrases in this Scripture, we will learn some surprising things.


"Abolish Law and Prophets"


First, we see that Jesus spoke of "the Law and the Prophets" as not being abolished. What did he mean by this phrase? The "Law and the Prophets" was a regular expression Jews of Jesus’ day used to refer to the entire Old Testament. (See Matthew 7:12; 22:40; Acts 24:14; 28:23; Romans 3:21.) The Old Testament comprises the Holy Scriptures or the sacred writings of the Jewish faith. It was through these writings that Jews thought they could understand the will of God and have eternal life (John 5:39, 45).


What Jesus said, then, was the Old Testament as a body of "God-breathed" literature would not be set aside or abolished. His concern was not specifically the Sabbath or the Ten Commandments. It was the entire Old Testament.

"To fulfill them"

Jesus also said he came not to abolish the Law or the Prophets, that is, the Holy Scriptures, but to "fulfill them" (Matthew 5:17). We should notice that Jesus did not tell Christians to "fulfill" these Scriptures down to the smallest letter and least stroke of a pen. He said he came to fulfill the Holy Scriptures.

What did he mean by this? The Greek word for "fulfill" isplerosai. According to Greek scholars, the nuance and meaning of this word is difficult to express in English, and several possibilities have been offered. These are summarized by four options:


  1. Jesus came to accomplish or obey the Holy Scriptures,
  2. to bring out the full meaning of the Holy Scriptures,
  3. to bring those Scriptures to their intended completion,
  4. to emphasize that the Scriptures point to him as Messiah and are fulfilled in his salvation work.

After reviewing several ways of looking at the word "fulfill," the Expositor’s Commentary on Matthew concluded by saying: "The best interpretation of these difficult verses says that Jesus fulfills the Law and the Prophets in that they point to him, and he is their fulfillment.

Unquote:

The rest of the article is in the link below. Enjoy and walk free in Christ as you depend on what He has already done in His finished work on the cross and resurrection.

https://www.gci.org/bible/matthew517
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,408
63
48
#13
Hello RainRider,

"“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. "

Jesus reference to "not coming to abolish the Law or the Prophets" is referring to the fact that Jesus did not come to just do away with the Law, i.e. He didn't come to cast it aside. His reference to fulfill the Law is just that, as he didn't come to cast it aside, but to meet its righteous requirements being kinned to us in the flesh. Christ met the righteous requirements of the Law on every believers behalf.

Regarding the mentioning of the prophets, he came to fulfill all that was written of Him by them.

"
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. " [/QOUTE]

I understand that, yet Yeshua has not fulfilled everything written of him.
Is 2:1-4, Is. 27:1, Is. 32:1. Not one of them has been fulfilled, to this day. I know I am not a scholar when it comes to most prophecy, however I have done my home work and dune so under many true scholars. Just as now, I never took their word for what it seemed to be, I would study it out, and seek the truth in pray and fasting if needed.

The above scripture is not inferring that the Law will be fulfilled by human beings, because that was the whole purpose for Christ coming in the flesh and fulfilling it on our behalf, because we couldn't. Not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of the pen will disappear from the Law, because Jesus fulfilled the Law completely and fully.

What that scripture is not saying is that Jesus came to perpetuate the Law, i.e. He didn't come to keep it going. He came to fulfill it and bring it to its fulfillment.
Though you are, Yeshua did live a life with out sin. Yet if he removed the Law then please telll me how their is still sin this this world if the Law has been removed?

Rom 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.


When we fail at the Law, it brings wrath. That is why Paul said, "For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law—I stopped trying to meet all its requirements—so that I might live for God."

Under this new covenant in His blood, we obtain salvation by trusting in Christ as the One who provided salvation for us, completely and fully. When we bring in other requirements for salvation such as keeping the Sabbath, observing the ten commandments, abstaining from foods, then we are attempting to obtain--by our own works--what Jesus already fulfilled and provided.
This new covenant. You opened this door so let take a short walk.

Jer 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
Jer 31:32 “not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.


Jer 31:33 “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

As we see here this New covenant only changes where the Law is written. Had it been intended to anything, why is that hidden from us?

Mat 26:28 “For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Here does Yeshua say, I am doing away with the Law for you? Nope, he is doing nothing more than telling us, it is by His blood that we can be washed clean. In fact I know not one place that Yeshua tells us the law will be, has been or might be removed. Can you give any passage that makes this clear when left in context?



By having faith in Christ we are credited with Christ's righteousness, His fulfillment of the Law and the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins, was poured out on Him.

We have been reconciled to God and credited with righteousness through faith in Christ and not by the observance of the Law.
Yet we are told,
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
2Jo 1:6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

And that is not even 1/2 of what I can post for you. I would like to give just one more.
Deu 8:6 “Therefore you shall keep the commandments of the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to fear Him.
Deu 11:1 “Therefore you shall love the LORD your God, and keep His charge, His statutes, His judgments, and His commandments always.
I post the Ot to show that what we find in the NT is not off the mark with Torah.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,408
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#14
Anything that replaces the life of Christ is an anti-Christ belief system and it is based on the world's way of thinking. This includes the carnal keeping of laws from the Old Covenant which is now a goner and has been replaced with the New Covenant.

I have been in many debates with Law-Keepers and it is a useless endeavor and a complete waste of time - only the Holy Spirit can illuminate the scriptures to reveal the work of Christ to all of us.

Titus 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.


Ahwatukee in post #8 has given the perfect answer to Jesus fulfilling the law and the prophets.

I wish you well and may our Father grant unto you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.
True as that may be, keeping the Law does not replace His sacrifice at all.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
1,408
63
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#16
Sure...sounds good to me. I will go over Matt. 5:17-18 as well. My take is that Jesus has already fulfilled the law requirements for us - not that we "do the law".

Here is an excellent teaching on what did Jesus mean when He states "He did not come to destroy the law and prophets - but to fulfill it." It is only 6 minutes long.


[video=youtube;y91KhArgUhQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y91KhArgUhQ[/video]
Though I understand what this man had to say, I am still left with the idea that you follow more law than you think.
Let me show you.
Is living a life of crime sin?
Is homosexuality sin?
Is lying a sin?
I can go on asking this kind of question, yet I already know that the answer to everyone is YES. So how you say the Law has no hold on us, then say Sin is still in the world?
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
332
83
#19
You are right though, not every one uses the same Bible so I should not have put that there. Besides, with me asking everyone to be follow any kind of order, I don't think many will post on this.
Hahaha...you might have a point there....people don't like (GOD's) law and order...if they did there would be no need for this thread. (sorry for digressing)
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#20
Though I understand what this man had to say, I am still left with the idea that you follow more law than you think.
Let me show you.
Is living a life of crime sin?
Is homosexuality sin?
Is lying a sin?
I can go on asking this kind of question, yet I already know that the answer to everyone is YES. So how you say the Law has no hold on us, then say Sin is still in the world?
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
We don't need to live by the moral code in the law of Moses which says in Lev. 18:23 to not have sex with a animal. The law of Christ Himself , the law of love, the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus will stop this.

People often say to those that speak of the grace of God and that they are not under the law of Moses including the 10 commandments anymore that they believe they are without "laws" now.

We do have laws in the New Covenant.

They are exciting laws that bring life and wholeness to us all - because these are all Christ Himself in us.
Jesus fulfilled the law.

The law was a mere shadow of the real thing which was Jesus.

Read the law to see Jesus in it and to know that Jesus did that for us and His life in us now leads us in all things. Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

We now live by:

1) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. ( Romans 8:2 )

2) The law of love ( Romans 13:10 James 2:8 )

3) The law of faith ( Romans 3:27 and the law of Moses is NOT of faith - Gal. 3:12 )

4) The law of liberty in Christ Jesus ( James 1:25 )

5) The law of Christ - which is Christ Himself in us. ( Gal. 6:2 )

We can trust the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ Himself in us to lead us in all affairs of life. We don't go back to the law of Moses that were a shadow of the real thing which is Christ in us..
Jesus is more then enough.

Yes...we glory in the laws that we have in the New Covenant because they are all Christ Himself living in and through us. ( Gal.2:20 and Col. 3:3 )

Get this wrong and we create a religion which really nullifies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to.


Galatians 5:22-23 (NASB)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

[SUP]23 [/SUP]
gentleness, self-control; against such things
there is no law.