Sin - living in it or free from it? Romans 6

[PeterJens]

Reading romans 6 it is obvious Paul expects us to walk in righteousness and put to
death evil deeds, because we have died with Christ and raised to new life in Him.

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Rom3:31

We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
rom 6:2

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
rom6:8

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
rom 6:11-13

thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
rom 6:17-18

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
rom 6:23

It is amazing to me how people can deny this obvious teaching Paul is giving.
In Christ we are dead to sin, but alive to righteousness if we walk in the Spirit.
And if we walk in the Spirit there is no more condemnation because we fulfil the
law of sin and death.

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
rom 6:1-2

The balance in Christ about condemnation, is to know what Gods love is through the
Holy Spirit in your heart. You have been anointed so that you might know acceptance
and blessing, that though there is a struggle there is also victory and communion.

 

[PeterJens]

Conviction of sin

On the twenty-fourth day of the same month, the Israelites gathered together, fasting and wearing sackcloth and putting dust on their heads.
They stood in their places and confessed their sins and the sins of their ancestors. 3 They stood where they were and read from the Book of the Law of the Lord their God for a quarter of the day, and spent another quarter in confession and in worshiping the Lord their God.
Neh 9:1-3

Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
James 4:8-10

Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.
Matt 3:6

when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned.
Lev 5:5

Any man or woman who wrongs another in any way and so is unfaithful to the Lord is guilty and must confess the sin they have committed. They must make full restitution for the wrong they have done, add a fifth of the value to it and give it all to the person they have wronged.
Num 5:6-7

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
James 5:16

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

Until people get serious with sin and where they are they cannot progress
into purity, righteousness which leads to holiness.

 

[PeterJens]

Burden

Sin is a burden until you repent and throw it off.
Once you accept Christ has forgiven you of each sin, and knows why and how you did
these things, and you begin to not hide it from your soul and mind, but walk openly in
purity and life, then it becomes real.

The cross is so big, that nothing cannot be included, no sin is too bad that it cannot
be cleansed and no reality too far gone it cannot be put right.

Sexual honesty gives us a choice of where we want to go, what we want to sow to
and what we want to see in our lives.

 

[Muzungu256]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[PeterJens]

What I have found interesting is how none of the normal suspects have turned
up against Romans 6.

It must really cause them problems.

I suggest we use this a lot more often.

What interests me in Pauls view of the mind.

He seems to think our will is founded in our minds and our minds are the core basis
of action. We can choose what to fill our minds with and so should fill it with good
uplifting things.

 

[graceNpeace]

Buddy, turn the page and go and read Romans chapter 7....
You really need a reality check!

 

[gb9]

Buddy, turn the page and go and read Romans chapter 7....
You really need a reality check!

or just plain reality........

 

[BenFTW]

Reading romans 6 it is obvious Paul expects us to walk in righteousness and put to
death evil deeds, because we have died with Christ and raised to new life in Him.

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Rom3:31

We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
rom 6:2

Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
rom6:8

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
rom 6:11-13

thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
rom 6:17-18

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
rom 6:23

It is amazing to me how people can deny this obvious teaching Paul is giving.
In Christ we are dead to sin, but alive to righteousness if we walk in the Spirit.
And if we walk in the Spirit there is no more condemnation because we fulfil the
law of sin and death.

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
rom 6:1-2

The balance in Christ about condemnation, is to know what Gods love is through the
Holy Spirit in your heart. You have been anointed so that you might know acceptance
and blessing, that though there is a struggle there is also victory and communion.

Any genuine Christian would say, "May it be so." We want victory, we yearn for it. Better than that, we have it in Christ Jesus. God is sanctifying us, and we are ever growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. There is no condemnation in Jesus Christ, He is able to save us completely because as our High Priest He lives forever interceding on our behalf. Our sins paid in full, and reconciliation to God made. Hallelujah. Victory over sin? For many the answer is slowly but surely, and we can be certain of this. God sanctifies, He chastises, and its with our best interest (and others) in mind.

 

[Skinski7]

Romans Wretch addressed...

[video=youtube;WagguO0YCxU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WagguO0YCxU[/video]

Romans 7 in Church history...
Romans 7 Understood

 

[Skinski7]

Our sins paid in full.

The Bible does not teach anywhere that your sins were paid in full.

That teaching originated with Thomas Aquinus adding a "punishment penalty paid" aspect to Anselm of Canterbury's satisfaction model. You can find this in Aquinus' Summa Theologia, part 3, Q.47,Part 3.

It was never taught by anyone before then. The Reformers then turned it into Penal Substitution.

Jesus purchased the Church, He did not pay any sin debt.

Even the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant demonstrates that God forgives sin withiut a payment of any kind. When the servant whose debt was forgiven (not paid) was uncharitable to his fellow servant the debt was reinstated.

A debt paid is not a debt forgiven.

The very idea of "sin debt paid" is the very opposite of "sins forgiven." Those who teach debt paid have to throw reason to the wind.

 

[PeterJens]

Buddy, turn the page and go and read Romans chapter 7....
You really need a reality check!

This is where you have projected incorrectly.
Paul is saying there is a battle between the mind and the sinful nature, but in Christ we put
to death the sinful nature and its desires and walk in the Spirit in victory.

Without Christ Paul felt only defeat, but in Christ he found victory.

What you appear to be suggesting, is this battle is not victorious but continuing.
I would call you to walk in faith and confess all your sins, one by one, and work through
them so your mind takes every thought captive and dwell on things of heaven and not
things of this earth.

 

[Skinski7]

As far ad I can tell it was Augustine of Hippo who was the first theologian to view the wretch of Romans 7 as the present Christian experience.

Augustine did not hold this view at first but as he developed his theology of Original Sin he was logically forced to change his mind.

You can find mention of this in the "retractions" document he wrote.

It makes sense thst we would see the shift in view here because Original Sin teaches "inability" due yo being in a flesh body just like the Gnostics taught. Thus the "flesh inability" is carried over into salvation under the framework of Original Sin.

 

[Skinski7]

The simple truth is this though.

Those eho uphold Romans 7 as being the present Christian experience are claiming that Christian salvation leaves one wretched, carnal and sold under sin That is what they believe.

Yet Jesus taught...

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

These pepple do not believe they can be set free indeed until they physically die, thus it is "death" who is actually their saviour.

Yet Paul taught freedom from sin is in this life, not post physical death...

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

It is obedience from the heart (yielding wholeheartedly to God) which sets us free from "serving sin."

Those who teach ongoing sin service in salvation are actually denying Jesus yet know it not. They deny both His teaching and His power.

 

[dcontroversal]

The Bible does not teach anywhere that your sins were paid in full.

That teaching originated with Thomas Aquinus adding a "punishment penalty paid" aspect to Anselm of Canterbury's satisfaction model. You can find this in Aquinus' Summa Theologia, part 3, Q.47,Part 3.

It was never taught by anyone before then. The Reformers then turned it into Penal Substitution.

Jesus purchased the Church, He did not pay any sin debt.

Even the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant demonstrates that God forgives sin withiut a payment of any kind. When the servant whose debt was forgiven (not paid) was uncharitable to his fellow servant the debt was reinstated.

A debt paid is not a debt forgiven.

The very idea of "sin debt paid" is the very opposite of "sins forgiven." Those who teach debt paid have to throw reason to the wind.

The bolded above = ignorance..........

He is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD

IT is FINISHED = PAID in FULL

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world

Propitiation-->ἱλασμός

hilasmos: propitiation​

Original Word: ἱλασμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hilasmos
Phonetic Spelling: (hil-as-mos')
Short Definition: a propitiation, atoning sacrifice
Definition: a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice

IT is FINISHED-->Τετέλεσται,

Original Word: τελέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-eh'-o)
Short Definition:I end, accomplish, pay
Definition: (a) I end, finish, (b) I fulfill, accomplish, (c) I pay.

 

[PeterJens]

Penal substitution seems wrong.

I have thought for a long time, we are forgiven because our sins is identified with the sins of the
people who killed Jesus, and Jesus forgave them, so this forgiveness is applied to us. So rather
than Jesus's death and forgiveness being extended to all sin, it only applies to the sin that actually
killed Him.

Now by faith in seeing Christ die and seeing our guilt in putting Him there, we identify with this sin, so
ouor sin in included into the sin forgiven by identification. So in history Jesus died once, but it only
applies to the sin that put Him there, which is why our sins can be forgiven if they are taken back to
this event.

This can never apply to future sin, because it is only applicable for a believer identifying through faith
with their guilt. Without this identification, nothing is cleansed or resolved.

It is not about a life for a life, or a perfect life which overpays a debt they do not owe. It is all about
God the judge forgiving the evil done against Him, demonstrating His love, an open invitation to join
Him. Now to reject this, is to reject the only path of forgiveness, and His heart and power to
transform.

There are not multiple alternative offers, or other ways, this is the only resolution, and is so total
and complete none other is required.

Now why does this work? Jesus said He would be lifted up like the bronze snake in the desert that
cured the snake bite that was sent in judgement for sins of the people.

So if we see Jesus in our minds, this very action brings healing to our souls. This is such a strange
idea unless the offer of love and Gods heart is the critical part of the forgiveness of Christ and our
restoration of relationship.

Now this is not just a mystical reality, but also an emotional and intellectual reality. This is often
downplayed. Jesus at a distance resolves our sin, and it could be in some peoples minds, at any
point in history just a sacrifice. But this demonstrates how wrong their understanding is and why
it needed to be the legalists, the hypocrites, those who stood as having achieved everything yet
had no love in their hearts, the best of humanity who killed the King, yet were forgiven.

 

[slave]

The title of this thread asks a question: Are we free from sin, or are we living in it?

The answer is we are in Christ if we have believed and received Him. And thus we are free, not from sin's influence, nor has sin lost its judgement from God of death, nor has sin been altered in any way in its nature in regards to us, but rather we have been made innocent by God thru Jesus on a Cross in order to be at liberty to rid sin from our lives successfully thru His empowerment thru our faith and devotion in righteousness...The right relationship to God as we live.

 

[Skinski7]

Propitiation actially pertains to the Mercy Seat.

Why leave that out dcontrovetsal? If you were looking up definiton you would have seen that.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Propitiation - hilastērion - G2435
Neuter of a derivative of G2433; an expiatory (place or thing), that is, (concretely) an atoning victim, or (specifically) the lid of the Ark (in the Temple): - mercyseat, propitiation.

The Greek word "hilastērion" is rendered "Mercy Seat" in Hebrews 9:5.

Heb 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

Jesus Christ being our propitiation is simply an allusion to the truth that reconciliation with God is found through Jesus Christ. We are to approach God boldly via the blood at the Mercy Seat with a true heart that our past sins may be expiated and thus washed away (Heb 10:19-22).

There is no "sin debt paid." That is not in the definition anywhere.

Atonement in the Old Testament basically means "cover." Our sins are covered in that we enter into the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2) having the law written upon our heart and mind (Heb 10:18) with the love of God shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost (Rom 5:5).

Love (the new established state) covers a multitude of sins.

Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

In other words, God justifies us (forgives past sin) on the basis that we enter into the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (in which faith works by love - Gal 5:6, and love works no ill - Rom 13:10, hence faith establishes the law -Rom 3:31).

This is why Paul connects "no condemnation" with the "righteousness of the law being fulfilled in us" in Romans 8:1-4.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You can also see this connection made by John in how he connects "propitiation" with the "love of God" being established in the Christian.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1Jn 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

The "debt paid" theology is not only not taught anywhere in the Bible, it also serves to subvert the transforming dynamic whereby the genuine Christian has been purged and purified.

This is why those who uphold "debt paid" theology will defend ongoing sin in salvation. In their mind "heart purity" and being manifestly established in the love of God has nothing to do with it. They have been deceived into believing that a "cosmic transaction," so to speak, justifies them.

It is quite the diabolical deception which has been developed through the traditions of men.

If anyone wants information on how this deception developed through history I have outlined it all in the second part of my book "One In Us" - It Is The Gift Of God (by Scott Wilson) which is available FREE on lulu.com

I lay out in sequence how the substitution/debt paid doctrines were developed by various theologians.

Debt paid/substitution theology is deadly.

 

[Skinski7]

Now why does this work? Jesus said He would be lifted up like the bronze snake in the desert that
cured the snake bite that was sent in judgement for sins of the people.

So if we see Jesus in our minds, this very action brings healing to our souls. This is such a strange
idea unless the offer of love and Gods heart is the critical part of the forgiveness of Christ and our
restoration of relationship.

You are on the right track Peter with those words.

The fundamental basis of the forgiveness of God is established upon those receiving mercy being established in the love of God, thus God's mercy is never license.

Carefully read Romans 3:24-31, 4:1-12 and all of Psalm 32 with this in mind and it should all click. Make sure to look up the definitions of the words in Romans 3 like "redemption," "propitiation," "grace," etc.


Be well.

 

[lastofall]

It is not Paul that expects us to walk in righteousness, rather it is the Holy Spirit of Truth speaking through Paul telling us these things: by the way you left out v16 which sums up the matter:

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

As for v23 wages are earned and deserved: gifts are unearned and undeserved.

 

[Skinski7]

When Jesus exclaimed "It is finished!" it was to do with the establishing of the New Covenant...

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

The veil was torn top to bottom symbolising that both Jew Nd Gentile could approach God directly through the Spirit.


Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.


Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The death of Christ has NOTHING to do with any kind of payment of a sin debt.