Don't blame the law its you.

[gotime]

Fair enough!
To unbelievers the law acts as a tutor to bring one to Christ.
Once one is saved the law no longer of any use.
We are called upon to follow a different kind of metric, Paul calls it the law of faith Rom 3:27.

Operating according the law of faith calls on us to do things that are beyond the law - the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22-23 encompasses and summarises those things that we are to do yet cannot be legislated!

I have only given the barebones here - there is a lot of amplification that can be done to develop this more fully!

You said that after one is saved the law is no longer of any use. Not sure what you mean there.

Is it not good anymore, does it cease to be spiritual? how does it no longer have any use?

 

[graceNpeace]

You said that after one is saved the law is no longer of any use. Not sure what you mean there.

Is it not good anymore, does it cease to be spiritual? how does it no longer have any use?

It is no longer binding.
Try Gal 3:23-24.

 

[gotime]

It is no longer binding.
Try Gal 3:23-24.

Oh so you are speaking in regards to its purpose of showing sin and our need of saving. Once we find the saviour we no longer need leading to the saviour. Thanx.

That being said, I am confused on this no longer binding. Do you think Jesus makes it ok to kill? I don't think you do, so it is very much binding in regards to the expectation. Love is the result of salvation and love will keep the law of love. Jesus died to save us from sin not to make sin ok. Thus the law as far as that is concerned will never cease to be binding.

 

[graceNpeace]

Oh so you are speaking in regards to its purpose of showing sin and our need of saving. Once we find the saviour we no longer need leading to the saviour. Thanx.

It also means it is not binding: we cannot be under the law and grace at the same time.
Try Rom 8:2, and again 8:13, read about the Jerusalem Council decisions in Acts 15:1-29 with specific reference to Acts 15:7-11.

 

[gotime]

Ok so I am looking at the verses you gave me to look at and Ill let you know here what I see in them.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

this was the first one, now to make sure we are on the same level. This "law of sin" is not talking about the law of God in fact its opposed to Gods law as seen only verses before:

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.



So here we see that the law of God in his mind is being warred against by anther law the law of sin. So clearly the law of God is not in view in the verse you quoted. Are we on the same wave length there?

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

This text also is in line with what I have been saying, its the same as saying by the spirit the law is fulfilled in us. this is in relation to the first verse which mentions the law of sin in the members/flesh. But we are free from the law of sin. but as noted the law of sin and the law of God are two different things.

Acts 15 is great but I fail to see the point sorry. excuse me if I don't get your point.

 

[graceNpeace]

Ok so I am looking at the verses you gave me to look at and Ill let you know here what I see in them.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

this was the first one, now to make sure we are on the same level. This "law of sin" is not talking about the law of God in fact its opposed to Gods law as seen only verses before:

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.



So here we see that the law of God in his mind is being warred against by anther law the law of sin. So clearly the law of God is not in view in the verse you quoted. Are we on the same wave length there?

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

This text also is in line with what I have been saying, its the same as saying by the spirit the law is fulfilled in us. this is in relation to the first verse which mentions the law of sin in the members/flesh. But we are free from the law of sin. but as noted the law of sin and the law of God are two different things.

Acts 15 is great but I fail to see the point sorry. excuse me if I don't get your point.

The law of sin and death is most emphatically the law of Moses.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is grace.

Surely you can read - go through the rest of Romans chapter 8.

As for Acts chapter 15 - the whole debate was whether the Mosaic law was binding on believers - the conclusion was that it was NOT - I am sorry you never got that but it is blindingly obvious to a cursory read.

 

[gotime]

The law of sin and death is most emphatically the law of Moses.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is grace.

Surely you can read - go through the rest of Romans chapter 8.

As for Acts chapter 15 - the whole debate was whether the Mosaic law was binding on believers - the conclusion was that it was NOT - I am sorry you never got that but it is blindingly obvious to a cursory read.

I don't mean to pick here but you can see can't you that I provided Paul's words for the law of sin which most clearly is not the law of Moses.

I see that you think it is but yet you have not shown me anything to convince me your point is biblical.

But to make the point further as shown before:


Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

you can see here can you not that there are two laws in view here:

1, Law of God
2, Law of sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

here Paul quotes the law of God, "thou shalt not covet" and says clearly it is not sin. therefor it is also clear that the 10 commandments here are quoted as the law of God and they are not the law of sin.

The context is irrefutable and clear.

It is also clear that the two laws are not the same as Paul says:




Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members...

Another law not the same law.

It seems to me that you applied your own interpretation here, but I will remain open to the fact that I may have missed something. I know Romans chapter 8 well one of my Fav books in the new testament. I don't think I know it all but I don't change without good solid biblical reasoning. And right now what you say and what I can see Paul say are two differing things.

 

[gotime]

Ps contextually being in captivity to the law of sin is because:

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

The law of sin is sin itself. The law of God says don't steal the law of sin says take what you want. So even when you desire to follow the law of God you can't because sin dwells in us.

 

[gotime]

The law of sin and death is most emphatically the law of Moses.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is grace.

Surely you can read - go through the rest of Romans chapter 8.

As for Acts chapter 15 - the whole debate was whether the Mosaic law was binding on believers - the conclusion was that it was NOT - I am sorry you never got that but it is blindingly obvious to a cursory read.

I have addressed what I deem to be your error concerning Romans above.

But here in acts 15 I did not speak so I thought I owe you some sort of response. It is interesting that you say at a cursory read its obvious. I would say that about reading the law that its obvious that the ceremonial law and the 10 commandments are not the same nor the Leviticus law the same. Yes they are all related no doubt but you get the point.

If we are going to just read as it writes then you should acknowledge that the main issue being brought fourth is:

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Yes the issue is circumcision not the whole law if it was the whole law then even this would be left out of the teaching:

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

So very clearly as both you and I would agree that they would have been taught to love God with all their heart etc we can clearly see that the issue is not the whole of the laws found in the law of Moses from God.

It seems you bunch it all together so you must believe that the Apostles taught not to obey thou shalt not kill? No of course you don't so then its clear that the law that says thou shalt not kill would not be an issue for the disciples in fact they taught such things. Jesus taught it in more depth.

So even you don't really believe the 10 commandments spoken by God and written with His finger are in view in this chapter. You certainly could not prove they are. or are you inconsistent with your own views.

If Paul had the law of God in view here which according to Paul are the 10 commandments then you have Paul going against himself.

Paul in fact taught this:

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul taught to keep at least 6 of the ten and he is quoting them. He puts them in their proper setting which is love, Love will not bear false witness or kill or steal etc. Then he says these of the 10 are comprehended or understood in this saying:



Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Guess what that is the law of Moses you seem to think Paul taught against.

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

I think this is proof enough that it is not as you say.

 

[LoveGodForever]

I have addressed what I deem to be your error concerning Romans above.

But here in acts 15 I did not speak so I thought I owe you some sort of response. It is interesting that you say at a cursory read its obvious. I would say that about reading the law that its obvious that the ceremonial law and the 10 commandments are not the same nor the Leviticus law the same. Yes they are all related no doubt but you get the point.

If we are going to just read as it writes then you should acknowledge that the main issue being brought fourth is:

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Yes the issue is circumcision not the whole law if it was the whole law then even this would be left out of the teaching:

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

So very clearly as both you and I would agree that they would have been taught to love God with all their heart etc we can clearly see that the issue is not the whole of the laws found in the law of Moses from God.

It seems you bunch it all together so you must believe that the Apostles taught not to obey thou shalt not kill? No of course you don't so then its clear that the law that says thou shalt not kill would not be an issue for the disciples in fact they taught such things. Jesus taught it in more depth.

So even you don't really believe the 10 commandments spoken by God and written with His finger are in view in this chapter. You certainly could not prove they are. or are you inconsistent with your own views.

If Paul had the law of God in view here which according to Paul are the 10 commandments then you have Paul going against himself.

Paul in fact taught this:

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul taught to keep at least 6 of the ten and he is quoting them. He puts them in their proper setting which is love, Love will not bear false witness or kill or steal etc. Then he says these of the 10 are comprehended or understood in this saying:

Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Guess what that is the law of Moses you seem to think Paul taught against.

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

I think this is proof enough that it is not as you say.

Absolutely, nice post gotime....

I don't know if a lot of people realize it but everything we have in the New Testament actually comes from the Old Testament, God just wants us to search the scriptures to see if these things are so.... If we just cling on to certain scriptures that support what we want to believe and reject the rest of God's Word we are not really following God because life come from EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of God (Matt 4:4)

God bless

 

[Meggido]

I have addressed what I deem to be your error concerning Romans above.

But here in acts 15 I did not speak so I thought I owe you some sort of response. It is interesting that you say at a cursory read its obvious. I would say that about reading the law that its obvious that the ceremonial law and the 10 commandments are not the same nor the Leviticus law the same. Yes they are all related no doubt but you get the point.

If we are going to just read as it writes then you should acknowledge that the main issue being brought fourth is:

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Yes the issue is circumcision not the whole law if it was the whole law then even this would be left out of the teaching:

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

So very clearly as both you and I would agree that they would have been taught to love God with all their heart etc we can clearly see that the issue is not the whole of the laws found in the law of Moses from God.

It seems you bunch it all together so you must believe that the Apostles taught not to obey thou shalt not kill? No of course you don't so then its clear that the law that says thou shalt not kill would not be an issue for the disciples in fact they taught such things. Jesus taught it in more depth.

So even you don't really believe the 10 commandments spoken by God and written with His finger are in view in this chapter. You certainly could not prove they are. or are you inconsistent with your own views.

If Paul had the law of God in view here which according to Paul are the 10 commandments then you have Paul going against himself.

Paul in fact taught this:

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul taught to keep at least 6 of the ten and he is quoting them. He puts them in their proper setting which is love, Love will not bear false witness or kill or steal etc. Then he says these of the 10 are comprehended or understood in this saying:



Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Guess what that is the law of Moses you seem to think Paul taught against.

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

I think this is proof enough that it is not as you say.

Do you adhere to all the hygiene and dietary laws as well? If you do not, you are a sinner and broke the law.

 

[Meggido]

Ps contextually being in captivity to the law of sin is because:

Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

The law of sin is sin itself. The law of God says don't steal the law of sin says take what you want. So even when you desire to follow the law of God you can't because sin dwells in us.

If SIN is still in us, then why did Jesus even die?

You are not helpless over SIN,its a choice not an action.

 

[Meggido]

How do you read that? I am curious because I find it interesting that people actually think that the law makes them sin.

In my estimation the law can't make me do anything. Its just writing. How I respond to it is a revelation about me not the law. To blame the law is akin to blaming God as if he some how tempted us by the law. But it is written:

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Temptation comes from within not without.

So Paul clearly does not mean to cast blame on the law for sin when he says these things. As he stated else where:

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

and again:

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

So we see the issue is not the law, the law is spiritual the problem is we are carnal in nature. not after conversion but that is another story. The problem is sin in us.


So what does Paul mean then when he says:

[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;

Is he blaming the law here? well not according to what he says in Romans 7. But Paul has something to say about the law and sin lets look.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

Here we see a similar instance, Is Paul here saying that the law made the motions of sin? He tells us what he means by this so lets see:

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So the law is not sin but rather makes sin known.


Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Notice it is sin that uses the commandment, It is sin that wrought all manner of concupiscence. The law because something sin used.


Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Is Paul saying that the commandment caused sin to revive, We know this is not the case as Paul in chapter 5 makes it clear that sin and death were before the law.

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

how?

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

notice again it not the commandment but sin using the commandment and sin deceived and killed.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

The law is good it is not the problem.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

And here it is plainly what Paul is saying, The commandment is not the issue but,"sin" the commandment brought death only by making sin appear sin that was already working death in us because the commandment made sin more sinful.

Paul demonstrates how in the verses to come, Though he wants to keep the law He can not and thus his sin becomes more sinful.

The issue is sin clearly, the law is just writing it does not change anything it rather revealed that sin is worse than we thought. that sin is rebellious in nature and the law only revealed its rebellious nature.

So lets keep what we like in the Bible and throw the rest out...what a modern day Judiazer you are....The Bible tells you to your face The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;and you deny it outright....

How does it feel to keep putting Jesus back on the cross and crucifying him over and over and over...because you are too deceived to know any better..

Do you keep all the hygiene and dietary laws? If you state they are not for today, youa re just playing with the law and a good little wannabe jew, but you are a sinner because you do not follow all of them...James 2.10

 

[Meggido]

No, are you?

then why are you following the law?

 

[beta]

Do you adhere to all the hygiene and dietary laws as well? If you do not, you are a sinner and broke the law.

As I have tried to bring to your attention...you are confusing/mixing Moses law with the Commandments of God . Moses is past --- God is present and future - can you accept that ?

 

[beta]

then why are you following the law?

We are supposed to be 'law-abiding people. We know what happens/will happen to those who are not....
God is not silent on that matter ! Do you not HEAR Him as admonished to ?

 

[Meggido]

We are supposed to be 'law-abiding people. We know what happens/will happen to those who are not....
God is not silent on that matter ! Do you not HEAR Him as admonished to ?

Do you instruct young women not in menopause to camp outside for 7 days and not go in their homes for any reasons, during their menstrual cycles?

If you do not God will admonish you heavily for not following this law...

 

[Meggido]

As I have tried to bring to your attention...you are confusing/mixing Moses law with the Commandments of God . Moses is past --- God is present and future - can you accept that ?

sorry the 10 are part of the 613 and if you do not follow all of them, you are breaking them all...James 2.10

So you are content breaking the law you so dearly hold....sinner....I should round up some men to stone you now...that also is part of the law....

you yourself said we should be law abiding people...if we are to be law abiding we must follow it all or nothing....

 

[beta]

Do you instruct young women not in menopause to camp outside for 7 days and not go in their homes for any reasons, during their menstrual cycles?

If you do not God will admonish you heavily for not following this law...

Well...there you go again...firmly STUCK in Moses law. No point talking to you.

 

[beta]

sorry the 10 are part of the 613 and if you do not follow all of them, you are breaking them all...James 2.10

So you are content breaking the law you so dearly hold....sinner....I should round up some men to stone you now...that also is part of the law....

you yourself said we should be law abiding people...if we are to be law abiding we must follow it all or nothing....

IF you could bring yourself to read some of my other posts you would see that the basic law for Christians are the 10 Commandments...and 'they' are not to be broken...GOD having spoken them HIMSELF to all the people - NOT Moses only.