Jesus Before His Incarnation

Enow · Jun 30, 2017

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.......46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The above references is Jesus saying that He was the Lord that was seen by men in the O.T. .

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

This reference above is referring to man not having seen God the Father but the Son has. Again below;

John 6:46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

No man has seen the Father, and so when the Lord appeared to men in the O.T., this was the Son of God appearing unto men.

He appeared unto Abraham.

Genesis 12:7And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.

Genesis 17:1And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Genesis 18:1And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

He appeared unto Isaac.

Genesis 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2 And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

He appeared unto Jacob;

Genesis 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

He appeared unto Moses;

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.16 Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt:

So before His incarnation, Jesus was the God that men had seen in the Old Testament that Moses had written about as led by the Holy Ghost.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The Word of God is the Creator by Whom all things were made by.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.....10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This is the testimony of Jesus before His incarnation as the God men had seen. Amen.

BeyondET · Jun 30, 2017

Good post I like it, here's another into the furnace with the three man in OT,

OneFaith · Jul 1, 2017

Yes, Preincarnate Jesus was the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament, the Lord, and the God who spoke things into existence from Day 2+ on. He was the One Who wrestled with Jacob, visited Abraham, spoke to Moses through the bush, and visited Elijah in the cave entrance.

posthuman · Jul 1, 2017

the one who came outside Jericho as "The Commander of the Lord's Armies" at whose feet Joshua fell to worship, and was not rebuked.

posthuman · Jul 1, 2017

who called Gideon

Judges 6:11-24

Adstar · Jul 1, 2017

Enow said:

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.......46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

The above references is Jesus saying that He was the Lord that was seen by men in the O.T. .

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

This reference above is referring to man not having seen God the Father but the Son has. Again below;

John 6:46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

No man has seen the Father, and so when the Lord appeared to men in the O.T., this was the Son of God appearing unto men.

He appeared unto Abraham.

Genesis 12:7And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.

Genesis 17:1And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Genesis 18:1And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

He appeared unto Isaac.

Genesis 26:1 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2 And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

He appeared unto Jacob;

Genesis 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

He appeared unto Moses;

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.16 Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt:

So before His incarnation, Jesus was the God that men had seen in the Old Testament that Moses had written about as led by the Holy Ghost.

2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The Word of God is the Creator by Whom all things were made by.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.....10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This is the testimony of Jesus before His incarnation as the God men had seen. Amen.

The LORD Jesus appeared to Moses because Jesus is God.. Moses spoke of Jesus because Moses spoke of God.. The pillar of cloud that lead the Hebrews through the wilderness on their journy to the promised land was the LORD God of Abraham who was Christ..

Exodus 13: KJV
20 "¶ And they took their journey from Succoth, and encamped in Etham, in the edge of the wilderness. {21} And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: {22} He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people."

1 Corinthians 10: KJV
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all ourfathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ

Johnny_B · Jul 1, 2017

He was also the Lord that stuck down with death is the Exodus 12, He is the Shepard of Psalms 22, revealed in John 10, Hebrews 13:20, I Peter 5:4. The two best books I've read on the pre-existence of Christ are, "Christ Before the Manger: the Life and Times of the Reincarnate Christ, by Ron Rhodes", and " The Unfolding Mystery Discovering Christ in the Old Testament by Edmund P. Clowney". There are three others that are good, these two were written in a way that caused me to be drawn into the reading of them.

He was not Melchizedek the reason being, Hebrews 7:3 "He is without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever." This is how Melchizedek is like Christ, that as is the customs in the Old Testament everyone of importance has a genealogy given to them, bit with Melchizedek it is not the case. You have to take into account Melchizedek is always referred to as resembling Christ, but being represented as Christ or Christ as a "after" Melchizedek, Psalm 110:4 "The Lord has swornand will not change his mind, “You are a priest foreverafter the order of Melchizedek.”

Hebrews 5:5-6, 10, 6:20 "So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him,“You are my Son, today I have begotten you”; 6 as he says also in another place, “You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek.”...10 being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek...6:20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

I could go on, but remember that Christ is resembling Melchizedek, with Melchizedek never being called Christ, showing that he is not Christ and that Christ is not Melchizedek.

Other good books on Christ in the Old Testaments are, "Jesus and the Old Testament by R. T. France" and "Jesus, Divine Messiah: The Old Testament Witness by Robert L. Reymond". I am sure there are other books that are just as good or maybe better on the subject of Christ in the OT, the books by O. Palmer Robertson, "The Christ of the Covenants, The Christ of the Prophets and The Christ of the Wisdom" are good books as well.

S-word · Jul 1, 2017

Enow said:

You neither know ‘Who I Am,’nor the Christ [The anointed one] who was taken to the throne of the ‘MOST HIGH,’ where he was chosen as his successor, before being anointed and translated from a physical body to a spiritual body in order that he should never experience death.

The Christ, who was chosen to serve God before the body of Adam into all eternity. The only exception of all mankind to have ascended into heaven and descended in the days of Abraham, who chose him as his God.

Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, and Hanna, the mother of Mary were sisters, making John and Mary first cousins.John, who was chosen by the “Light of Man” the controlling personality within the Logos, to Baptise with water, which was symbolic of the great flood, when the old body of Adam was submerged in water and the new body of Enoch, ‘The Anointed One=The Christ’ arose.

Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives, were all direct descendants of Enoch through his 6 sons, Methusulah, Rigam, Riman,Urchan, Cherminion and Giadad.

John knew that his cousins son ‘Jesus’ was greater than he, and at first, refused to baptise him, believing that he was not worthy enough to do so, but he did not know at that time, that Jesus was the one chosen by the “Light of Man,”who was the Supreme personality of Godhead within the Logos, who told John that the man on whom he saw the spirit descend upon in bodily form, was the one he had chosen to baptise with that spirit, which he was to receive.

If John had believed that his cousin Mary was an ever virgin, and that Jesus was born without male semen having been introduced into her uterus, something that has never been known to have happened, do you think that he would have doubted that Jesus was the chosen Messiah? But he did. While in prison awaiting his execution, he sent his disciples to ask Jesus, if he was really the one, or if they had to wait for another.

If Jesus had been born of a pure virgin, this would have been the greatest miracle of all time, and would have been shouted from the roof-tops by all the Gospel authors .But Mark, who is believed to have been Mark the son of Peter, and John the beloved disciple of Jesus, both ignore the physical birth of Jesus as being totally irrelevant to the story of mans salvation, and begin their accounts of the salvation, with the spiritual birth of Jesus, when the spirit of the lord descended upon Jesus in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say; “You are my son (My chosen heir and successor) this day I have begotten thee---This day I have become your Father.”

And Matthew simply confirms that Jesus was the fulfillment of the Lords prophecy through his prophet Isaiah, who said than an Almah=a young unmarried woman who is pregnant will bear a son, who would be the vessel in which the Lord would reveal himself to the world, the Emmanuel, meaning [God is with us]

And when we take away the later interpolation by the Roman church (AS WAS SUPPOSED) Luke reveals that Jesus was the biological son of Mary and her half brother Joseph who were both sired by Alexander Helios=Heli.Jesus who was born of the flesh as are all human beings, was later born Son of God, not by blood, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the spirit of the Lord which descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my son, THIS DAY I have begotten thee. "Jesus was raised from the dead on the first day of the week after Passover which is the Feast of “First fruits.”

Jesus is the “firstborn, the first fruits to be harvested from the body of man, the first of many brothers and sisters to be raised from the dead, the first of many brothers and sisters to be conformed to the image of God’s only begotten son, the first to win the victory and to receive a share of the glorious immortal body of light, which is that of our heavenly saviour, which body of light is torn asunder and poured out as fire on the heads of all those who believed his words as spoken through his servant "Jesus" for our salvation.

In his new glorious body of brilliant and blinding light, He, on the road to Damascus, answered Saul's question, "Who are you Lord?" with these words, "I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you persecute,"Acts 3: 13; GNB, “The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus.”

And Jesus our brother, was given divine glory and now sits in the throne of our Father, and all the chosen ones who have born theimageof the first Adam, shall also bear theIMAGEOF Jesus, "The Second Adam,"(in the eternal process of change/evolution, for mankind does not close the chapter in the book of evolution) a new creation of bodies of Glorious and blinding Light that is the new Temple of our Lord that is to replace God’s old tabernacle (Mankind) as the ruler on this earth of all creation.

First, "MAN" (man (אנושׁ : 'enosh') in English, mortal human beings) was created a little lower than the angels, then he is crowned with glory and all creation is placed beneath his feet. All creation is placed beneath the feet ofMAN(man (אנושׁ : 'enosh) in English, mortal human beings)WHO IS CROWNED WITH GLORY, we have not yet seen this happen. But we have seen Jesus, the first born from the dead, who has won the victory and was given divine glory by our heavenly Father and saviour, and now sits in His heavenly throne of Godhead: and who, in Revelation 3: 21; invites those, who win the victory also, to sit with him in our Father’s throne of Godhead within the creation. And all creation Visible and invisible, which, according to Paul, includes even the angels, will bow at their feet.

Dino246 · Jul 1, 2017

S-word said:

You neither know ‘Who I Am,’nor the Christ [The anointed one] who was taken to the throne of the ‘MOST HIGH,’ where he was chosen as his successor, before being anointed and translated from a physical body to a spiritual body in order that he should never experience death.

The Christ, who was chosen to serve God before the body of Adam into all eternity. The only exception of all mankind to have ascended into heaven and descended in the days of Abraham, who chose him as his God.

Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, and Hanna, the mother of Mary were sisters, making John and Mary first cousins.John, who was chosen by the “Light of Man” the controlling personality within the Logos, to Baptise with water, which was symbolic of the great flood, when the old body of Adam was submerged in water and the new body of Enoch, ‘The Anointed One=The Christ’ arose.

Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives, were all direct descendants of Enoch through his 6 sons, Methusulah, Rigam, Riman,Urchan, Cherminion and Giadad.

John knew that his cousins son ‘Jesus’ was greater than he, and at first, refused to baptise him, believing that he was not worthy enough to do so, but he did not know at that time, that Jesus was the one chosen by the “Light of Man,”who was the Supreme personality of Godhead within the Logos, who told John that the man on whom he saw the spirit descend upon in bodily form, was the one he had chosen to baptise with that spirit, which he was to receive.

If John had believed that his cousin Mary was an ever virgin, and that Jesus was born without male semen having been introduced into her uterus, something that has never been known to have happened, do you think that he would have doubted that Jesus was the chosen Messiah? But he did. While in prison awaiting his execution, he sent his disciples to ask Jesus, if he was really the one, or if they had to wait for another.

If Jesus had been born of a pure virgin, this would have been the greatest miracle of all time, and would have been shouted from the roof-tops by all the Gospel authors .But Mark, who is believed to have been Mark the son of Peter, and John the beloved disciple of Jesus, both ignore the physical birth of Jesus as being totally irrelevant to the story of mans salvation, and begin their accounts of the salvation, with the spiritual birth of Jesus, when the spirit of the lord descended upon Jesus in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say; “You are my son (My chosen heir and successor) this day I have begotten thee---This day I have become your Father.” ...

And when we take away the later interpolation by the Roman church (AS WAS SUPPOSED) Luke reveals that Jesus was the biological son of Mary and her half brother Joseph who were both sired by Alexander Helios=Heli. ...

Jesus is the “firstborn, the first fruits to be harvested from the body of man, the first of many brothers and sisters to be raised from the dead, the first of many brothers and sisters to be conformed to the image of God’s only begotten son, the first to win the victory and to receive a share of the glorious immortal body of light, which is that of our heavenly saviour, which body of light is torn asunder and poured out as fire on the heads of all those who believed his words as spoken through his servant "Jesus" for our salvation.
...

And Jesus our brother, was given divine glory and now sits in the throne of our Father, and all the chosen ones who have born theimageof the first Adam, shall also bear theIMAGEOF Jesus, "The Second Adam,"(in the eternal process of change/evolution, for mankind does not close the chapter in the book of evolution) a new creation of bodies of Glorious and blinding Light that is the new Temple of our Lord that is to replace God’s old tabernacle (Mankind) as the ruler on this earth of all creation. ...

I don't know where you get your information, but much of it is not biblical, and is not consistent with the whole counsel of Scripture. Given that you seem to assert that Jesus is not inherently divine, I'd have to suggest that your position is heretical.

To the OP, one verse which has not been mentioned yet is Isaiah 6, in which Isaiah saw the Lord seated on His throne. In John 12:41, it is made clear that Isaiah saw Jesus.

Enow · Jul 1, 2017

OneFaith said:

I think I know what you are talking about here, albeit, I know that Jesus was not an angel. Not sure if you are coming from that P.O.V. or not, but just saying.

God spoke the light into existence on day 1 so the Word of God was there for that too for nothing that was made was without Him.

Yes.

Thanks for sharing.

Enow · Jul 1, 2017

Johnny_B said:

Reincarnate Christ? Was that a typo? You meant Preincarnate Christ, right?

Thanks for sharing, brother.

Synergy · Jul 1, 2017

Good post, let's get a quick confirmation with the event that occurred Between Jesus and the devil

Matthew 4:7 "Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.”

Jesus choose to use" it was written" because in the old testament, the Lord God gave a specific warning against people that would want to tempt him;

Deuteronomy 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.

Huckleberry · Jul 1, 2017

BeyondET said:

Daniel 3:25 is a prime example of where only the KJV gets it right.

S-word · Jul 1, 2017

Dino246 said:

Hebrews 11: 5; “By faith Enoch was translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him. That is biblical.

1[SUP]st[/SUP] Peter 1: 19-21; It was the costly sacrifice of Christ [The Anointed One] who was like a lamb without defect or flaw. He was chosen by God before the creation of this world and revealed in these last days for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from death and gave him glory; and so your hope and faith are fixed on God. That is biblical.

Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had taken him.That also is biblical.

365 is the number of days in a calendar year, the one year old lamb of God without defect or flaw.

But which world was Peter referring to? Was he referring to this world which is destined to burn or the previous world that was destroyed by water, as mentioned in 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Peter 3: 5-7. They purposely ignore the fact that long ago God gave a command, and the heavens and earth were created.The earth was formed out of water and by water, and it was also by water, the water of the flood, whereby that world was destroyed. But the heavens and earth [New World] that now exist are being preserved by the same command of God, in order to be destroyed by fire. This also is biblical.

He, who would later be reborn on earth and named ‘Jesus’ and who, before the old world was destroyed by water, had been carried to the very throne of the Most High and anointed as his successor and translated in order that he should never see death, was spoken of by Isaiah as the one that God chose to go to the people and speak to them in parables, in order that the minds of those people would be made dull, the ears deaf, ad their eyes blind, so that they could not see or hear or understand, etc.

Dino246 · Jul 1, 2017

Huckleberry said:

There was a long discussion in a recent KJV-only thread on this subject. My conclusion is that while the KJV may be "correct" in stating that the fourth man is the Son of God (if indeed it as a preincarnate appearance, and not merely an angel, which is also plausible), it is highly unlikely that a pagan king would say such a thing. It is far more likely that he would describe the fourth being from within his own frame of reference, calling him "a son of the gods". In that sense, the other translations are more accurate. Both are right, in a sense.

Dino246 · Jul 2, 2017

S-word said:

"Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, and Hanna, the mother of Mary were sisters, ...", the name of Mary's mother is not in Scripture. "The controlling personality within the Logos" is not in Scripture. "When the old body of Adam was submerged in water and the new body of Enoch, ‘The Anointed One=The Christ’ arose." That's not in Scripture either.

"Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives, were all direct descendants of Enoch through his 6 sons, Methusulah, Rigam, Riman,Urchan, Cherminion and Giadad " ... also not scriptural. As I said, much (I didn't say "all" or even "most") of what you wrote is not scriptural.

"And when we take away the later interpolation by the Roman church (AS WAS SUPPOSED) Luke reveals that Jesus was the biological son of Mary and her half brother Joseph who were both sired by Alexander Helios=Heli." This too is not scriptural. You claim hereby that Jesus is purely human, not divine. That is a heresy, addressed by the early church. Jesus was born of a virgin. Mary confirms that herself. The text of Scripture also states that Joseph had no relations with Mary until after Jesus was born. You can quote all the scriptural passages you like in support of your view, but it is still heresy.

S-word · Jul 2, 2017

Dino246 said:

I see that you are referring to the limited scriptures of the canon of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, that was compiled in the 4th century and translated from the Greek into Latin by Jerome and others, and you reject the scriptures from which Jesus, his brothers and the apostles quoted.

Well good for you mate, if you are happy with the erroneous translations and interpretations of the Roman church, then that is your God given right. Free will it is called.

And where pray tell, does Mary confirm that she was still a virgin after giving birth to her first born son, Jesus?

And I think you are confusing Joseph the son of Jacob, who married the already pregnant Mary, with Joseph the son of Heli, who is the biological father of Jesus.

graceNpeace · Jul 2, 2017

Dino246 said:

"Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, and Hanna, the mother of Mary were sisters, ...", the name of Mary's mother is not in Scripture. "The controlling personality within the Logos" is not in Scripture. "When the old body of Adam was submerged in water and the new body of Enoch, ‘The Anointed One=The Christ’ arose." That's not in Scripture either.

"Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives, were all direct descendants of Enoch through his 6 sons, Methusulah, Rigam, Riman,Urchan, Cherminion and Giadad " ... also not scriptural. As I said, much (I didn't say "all" or even "most") of what you wrote is not scriptural.

"And when we take away the later interpolation by the Roman church (AS WAS SUPPOSED) Luke reveals that Jesus was the biological son of Mary and her half brother Joseph who were both sired by Alexander Helios=Heli." This too is not scriptural. You claim hereby that Jesus is purely human, not divine. That is a heresy, addressed by the early church. Jesus was born of a virgin. Mary confirms that herself. The text of Scripture also states that Joseph had no relations with Mary until after Jesus was born. You can quote all the scriptural passages you like in support of your view, but it is still heresy.

Yes, what he is about is heresy...

Magenta · Jul 2, 2017

S-word, you won't last long on this site, so I shall say my good bye to you now

S-word · Jul 2, 2017

[QUO
TE=Magenta;3166678]S-word, you won't last long on this site, so I shall say my good bye to you now

[/QUOTE]

Why? Do the moderators here bann anyone who proves that the teaching of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine are false.

Not only did the apostles not teach the Jesus of the universal church, neither did they teach the false doctrine of the non-biblical immaculate conception of Mary or of the supposedly virgin birth of Jesus.

We know that the universal church of King Constantine was formed from a rag-tag group of quarrelling and insult hurling religious bodies that called themselves Christians.

Emperor Constantine, finally sick to the stomach with their constant bickering, called together all the heads of those quarrelling bodies to the first ever "World Council of Churches" where, under the dominating presence of the non-christian and almost certainly theologically illiterate Constantine, the universal church was established in 325 AD, some 300 years after the Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ had been established in Jerusalem.In the days of the Apostle Paul who in 1st Timothy 1: 1; says: "From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by order of "GOD OUR SAVIOUR" and Christ Jesus "OUR HOPE."" The people were already beginning to fall away from the truth, and following another gospel that was not taught by the word of God or the apostles.

In his 2nd letter to the Corinthians 11: 4; Paul says, "You gladly tolerate anyone who comes to you and preaches a different Jesus, not the one we preached; and you accept a spirit (The Lie) and a gospel completely different from the spirit (Of Truth) and the gospel you received from us."

So, What was that other gospel, Way back in the days of Paul, that was leading the people away from the truth and away from the Jesus as preached by the Apostles, to another false Jesus?

That gospel was the word of the anti-christ that refused to acknowledge that Jesus had come as a human being, and instead, they believed that he was a spirit, who, like some Hologram, would appear and disappear at will.

Even in the days of John, the false teaching that Jesus was not of the seed of Adam from which every human being who has, or ever will walk this earth, has descended, and those who believed this falsehoodthat Jesus had not come as a human being, but as a spiritual being, was already beginning to be spread throughout the world, and concerning that evolving falsehood, John had this to say.

From the Good News Bible catholic Study Edition: 1st letter of John 4:1-3; "My dear friends, do not believe all who claim to have the spirit/teaching, but test them to find out if the spirit/teaching they have comes from God. For many false prophets have gone out everywhere. This is how you will be able to know if it is Gods spirit/word: anyone who acknowledges that Jesus came as a human being has the spirit/teaching, who comes from God. But anyone who denies this about Jesus does not have the spirit from God. The spirit that he has is from the enemy of the anointed one, the Anti-christ etc."

2nd letter of John verses 7-10;."Many deceivers have gone out all over the world, people who do not acknowledge that Jesus came as a human being. Such a person is a deceiver and an enemy of Christ."

If you would care to open your eyes, I'm sure that you will have little difficulty in finding the teaching of the anti-christ, which does not deny that Jesus had come, but which refused to acknowledge that Jesus was a true human being born of the seed of Adam, and descended through the genetic line of David, which lie has been spread throughout the entire WORLD.
Over the centuries the false teaching of the anti-christ continued to evolve.But as the followers of the anti-christ became more enlightened and harder to deceive. In Alexandria, by the second century, Docetism, the concept that Jesus had existed as a spirit rather than a human being, had all but theoretically been stamped out.

But still, there persisted the belief that their false Jesus, although seen as a sort of human being, did not have our normal bodily needs, such as eating, drinking and having to go to the toilet, and Clement the bishop of Alexandria, wrote: "It would be ridiculous to imagine that the redeemer, in order to exist, had the usual needs of man. He only took food and ate it in order that we should not teach about him in a Docetic fashion." Satan must have been some sort of an idiot believing that this false Jesus of theirs, who had no need of food such as we human beings do, was starving hungry after a mere 40 days without food, who then tried to tempt him into turning stones into bread.

Their Jesus was not the Jesus as taught by the apostles, but that other Jesus, taught by the Anti-Christ, who unlike we mere HUMAN BEINGS, did not need to eat, drink, or go to the toilet, as was taught by one of the great teachers that the members of the universal church, loved to use as one of their authorities when trying to defend one of their false doctrines.

Saint Clement of Alexandria, who was a saint in the Martyrology of the Roman universal church of Emperor Constantine, in support of the great lie, speaks of the time that some imaginary midwife, (Which is not supported by scripture) who was supposed to be at the birth of Jesus, told some woman by the name Salome, that the mother was still a virgin after the birth and that her hymen was still intact, (Which is not supported by scripture) and that this supposed Salome, stuck her finger into the mother's vagina to check, and her hand immediately withered up, but the baby Jesus reached out and touched her hand and healed it.(What utter unadulterated ribbish)

Down to the 17th century Clement was venerated as a saint. His name was to be found in the Martyrologies, and his feast fell on December 4. But when the Roman Martyrology was revised by Clement VIII (Pope from 1592 to 1605), his name was dropped from the calendar on the advice of his confessor, Cardinal Baronius. Pope Benedict XIV in 1748 maintained his predecessor's decision on the grounds that Clement's life was little-known; that he had never obtained public cultus in the Church; and that some of his doctrines were, if not erroneous, at least highly suspect.

Erroneous and highly suspect, you can say that again, but by then the great lie had become so entrenched in the minds of the gullible that their heads were so mixed up and set as hard as concrete, one would need a sledge hammer to shatter that conglomerate and allow the light of truth to shine in.

Jesus Before His Incarnation

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