Baptism: is it required to be baptized in water?

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UnderGrace

Guest
Yes I know all the conspiracy theories

And the more you speak the more I know who are and your group

What?

ALL Christian denominations are "shoot offs" from the RCC!
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Unfortunately I have unresolved issues with this sect and when they come here it is hard not to get involved.

I am doing my best..you are absolutely right though... I should not be interacting, you are not the first to remind me.

Thank you!:)

And worse.

But Christians do not need to interact with messengers of Satan or trolls either.
 
Oct 6, 2017
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Malachi is not saying that God will not ever change His mind, or do something extra-ordinary.

Otherwise, God would have not changed His mind to destroy Sodom, if there could be found 50 righteous people there, and on and on.... He had said He was going to destroy the city, but changed His mind, at least until the righteous could not be found.

There are other examples, but my point is, you are trying to hold God to "His word"... by YOUR standards... and that is a dangerously arrogant thing to do. God does as He wills, to suit His purpose.

Jesus forgave people as he saw fit... the thief on the cross is his final example of that. It does not mean that God lies.. it means that God does as He wills.
Abraham didn't come to God in (Genesis 18:16-33)with information God lacked. Abraham didn't tell God information that He didn't already know. In fact, God knew that Sodom would have fewer than ten righteous people, but Abraham did not. God's mind doesn't change because it doesn't need to change. God knows everything, and He knows the end from the beginning. God does not have or need a plan B because there are no flaws in His Plan A. God's plan (A) for men's redemption has always been by grace through faith. The thief exercised that faith and it was counted to him for righteousness apart from baptism.
And yes, I do hold God to His word, my eternal security relies on it, its all I or you have, not by my standard but by His standard which is His Word.
(2 Peter 1:19-21) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day of dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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The thief being forgiven on the cross is like this.... He didn't have to do what everyone else had to do, because JESUS MADE AN EXCEPTION.

Just like the "late hires" didn't have to work all day in order to receive full pay. It is totally up to the landowner to pay what he wishes.

20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like [SUP][a][/SUP]a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. [SUP]2 [/SUP]When he had agreed with the laborers for a [SUP][b][/SUP]denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And he went out about the [SUP][c][/SUP]third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place; [SUP]4 [/SUP]and to those he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ And so they went. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Again he went out about the [SUP][d][/SUP]sixth and the ninth hour, and did [SUP][e][/SUP]the same thing. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And about the [SUP][f][/SUP]eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he *said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day long?’ [SUP]7 [/SUP]They *said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He *said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’
[SUP]8 [/SUP]“When evening came, the [SUP][g][/SUP]owner of the vineyard *said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.’ [SUP]9 [/SUP]When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a [SUP][h][/SUP]denarius. [SUP]10 [/SUP]When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; [SUP][i][/SUP]but each of them also received a denarius. [SUP]11 [/SUP]When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner, [SUP]12 [/SUP]saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.’ [SUP]13 [/SUP]But he answered and said to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? [SUP]14 [/SUP]Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye [SUP][j][/SUP]envious because I am [SUP][k][/SUP]generous?’ [SUP]16 [/SUP]So the last shall be first, and the first last.”
 

plaintalk

Senior Member
Jul 20, 2015
445
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one or two-
when a man takes takes a wife; is that one or two?
How many Gods are there? One, two or three? Matt 1: 23; Acts 5: 3, 4; Eph 4: 6

Unless one is born of WATER and SPIRIT, he cannot enter the kingdom. John 3: 5
How many births is that? One or two?

Jesus authorized the baptism in water by His disciples, When one is baptized in water, Jesus gives that individual the gift of the Holy Spirit, baptizing him with the Spirit. Any connection between the two or are they just one baptism?
God bless
 

plaintalk

Senior Member
Jul 20, 2015
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Those that believe receive the Spirit. John 7: 39
Those that repent and are baptized, receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2: 38, 39
The Holy Spirit is given to those that OBEY Him. Acts 5: 32

Jesus said, preach the gospel, "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved." Mark 16: 15, 16

We must not only believe the gospel (Rom. 1: 16) but we must obey the gospel. 2 Thess. 1: 8

Although Jesus was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which he suffered, and having been made perfect, He became to all who obey Him the source of eternal salvation. Heb. 5: 8, 9

Man made rituals???

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 John 4: 1
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
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Unfortunately I have unresolved issues with this sect and when they come here it is hard not to get involved.
I am doing my best..you are absolutely right though... I should not be interacting, you are not the first to remind me.
Thank you!:)
U....,

As a Christian we must insure G-d's word is presented correctly...to the extent of our abilities, no matter who we must face.
Those here trying to change Bible interpretations since the 1960's....are harmful to G-d's clear message and intent

....."keep up the good fight until the end"......
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
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and, you are baptized in the Spirit at the time you are water baptized.... at least according to Peter...:rolleyes:

whether you get any miraculous manifestations of the Spirit is totally up to the Spirit, and could happen at any time....
Hornetguy,


I've heard you say it before...or at least have read this quoted post previously... that the holy ghost comes immediately at water baptism. While I very much appreciate that you see the strong link between water baptism and that of the holy ghost, the biblical examples do not support the supposition that the Holy Ghost baptism happens AT water baptism. In fact, I think the biblical play-by-play accounts of people receiving the Holy Ghost clearly and repeatedly show that no such rule exists. Please consider (and re-read, please) the following accounts:


Play-by-play example #1. Acts 2:1-4. The first record of the outpouring of the promise (baptism of the Holy Ghost). Please forgive me for making the assumption that those first disciples, including Peter, had been baptized prior to the day in which they received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. But I see no statement of any of that first upper-room group getting water-baptized that day.


Play-by-play example #2. Acts 8:5-17. Philip and the Samaritans. In verse 5 Philip preaches to them. In verse 12 they believe and get baptized. Verses 14-16 the apostles hear of this and send 2 to pray for them because verse 16 clearly states that although they’ve been water baptized, they have not yet received the Holy Ghost. Not until verse 17 does the bible state that they actually receive the Holy Ghost.


Play-by-play example #3. Acts 10:44-48. Cornelius and his group. In this example the Holy Ghost is poured out upon them (verse 44) before water baptism is even offered to them (verse 48).


Play-by-play example #4. Acts 19:1-7. Paul talking to disciples at Ephesus. The bible already declares them as disciples in verse 1. Verse 2, Paul makes no assumption that disciple=has holy ghost. In verse 5 they are baptized. In verse 6, they receive the holy ghost, not stated as “at baptism” but in this particular example it was instead stated that
“when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them”.


Those are the only 4 biblical accounts (that i can currently recall) in which the individuals are stated as receiving both the Holy Ghost and water baptism... along with the order in which these things occur. And they show no set chronological pattern. Feel free to share any other biblical accounts if you find them. Meanwhile, my prayer is that you do continue to tell people that they have need to receive baptism in water and baptism in the Holy Ghost… but without a time constraint that is unsupported by the examples given to us in the bible.


BTW, even Jesus told his disciples to tarry in Jerusalem UNTIL they receive the promise from the father...but even he wouldn’t tell them exactly when that would happen…. just to seek until they find (so to speak). Acts 1:4-8. That’s how it still is today. We are to seek until we receive.


Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,623
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Hornetguy,


I've heard you say it before...or at least have read this quoted post previously... that the holy ghost comes immediately at water baptism. While I very much appreciate that you see the strong link between water baptism and that of the holy ghost, the biblical examples do not support the supposition that the Holy Ghost baptism happens AT water baptism. In fact, I think the biblical play-by-play accounts of people receiving the Holy Ghost clearly and repeatedly show that no such rule exists. Please consider (and re-read, please) the following accounts:


Play-by-play example #1. Acts 2:1-4. The first record of the outpouring of the promise (baptism of the Holy Ghost). Please forgive me for making the assumption that those first disciples, including Peter, had been baptized prior to the day in which they received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. But I see no statement of any of that first upper-room group getting water-baptized that day.


Play-by-play example #2. Acts 8:5-17. Philip and the Samaritans. In verse 5 Philip preaches to them. In verse 12 they believe and get baptized. Verses 14-16 the apostles hear of this and send 2 to pray for them because verse 16 clearly states that although they’ve been water baptized, they have not yet received the Holy Ghost. Not until verse 17 does the bible state that they actually receive the Holy Ghost.


Play-by-play example #3. Acts 10:44-48. Cornelius and his group. In this example the Holy Ghost is poured out upon them (verse 44) before water baptism is even offered to them (verse 48).


Play-by-play example #4. Acts 19:1-7. Paul talking to disciples at Ephesus. The bible already declares them as disciples in verse 1. Verse 2, Paul makes no assumption that disciple=has holy ghost. In verse 5 they are baptized. In verse 6, they receive the holy ghost, not stated as “at baptism” but in this particular example it was instead stated that
“when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them”.


Those are the only 4 biblical accounts (that i can currently recall) in which the individuals are stated as receiving both the Holy Ghost and water baptism... along with the order in which these things occur. And they show no set chronological pattern. Feel free to share any other biblical accounts if you find them. Meanwhile, my prayer is that you do continue to tell people that they have need to receive baptism in water and baptism in the Holy Ghost… but without a time constraint that is unsupported by the examples given to us in the bible.


BTW, even Jesus told his disciples to tarry in Jerusalem UNTIL they receive the promise from the father...but even he wouldn’t tell them exactly when that would happen…. just to seek until they find (so to speak). Acts 1:4-8. That’s how it still is today. We are to seek until we receive.


Love in Jesus,
Kelby
No.... I don't think it's a "rule" that it happens only/exactly at that time. All that Peter told the 3000 was that when you repent and are baptized you will receive the Spirit. Not really saying that it will definitely, without exception, happen at that moment.

Personally, I think it DOES happen at that moment for many new believers.. but, as you have pointed out, there is one scriptural reference that indicates that at least in THAT instance, it required the laying on of the apostles hands... at least several days after baptism. I don't pretend to know why that is.

I can't really use one scripture as an unflexible pattern... the same way that people shouldn't use the thief on the cross as an example of "you don't have to ever be baptized to be saved" .... that was a "one off" event, at least from all scriptural accounts.

Peter's account of Pentecost does not say definitively that the 3000 all received the Spirit at that moment.... that is simply what Peter promised them... "do this, and this will happen"....
 

Didymous

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2018
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No.... I don't think it's a "rule" that it happens only/exactly at that time. All that Peter told the 3000 was that when you repent and are baptized you will receive the Spirit. Not really saying that it will definitely, without exception, happen at that moment.

Personally, I think it DOES happen at that moment for many new believers.. but, as you have pointed out, there is one scriptural reference that indicates that at least in THAT instance, it required the laying on of the apostles hands... at least several days after baptism. I don't pretend to know why that is.

I can't really use one scripture as an unflexible pattern... the same way that people shouldn't use the thief on the cross as an example of "you don't have to ever be baptized to be saved" .... that was a "one off" event, at least from all scriptural accounts.

Peter's account of Pentecost does not say definitively that the 3000 all received the Spirit at that moment.... that is simply what Peter promised them... "do this, and this will happen"....
One thing to consider is this: Some say there is a national repentance specific to the Jews, which might be why Peter told them they needed to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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One thing to consider is this: Some say there is a national repentance specific to the Jews, which might be why Peter told them they needed to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
That has been brought up in the past... I disagree with that theory, mainly because Peter told those at Pentecost that it was for everyone from now on. And, there are several examples of Gentiles being baptized as well. Cornelius and family, the eunuch from Ethiopia, Lydia may well have been a gentile..
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
One thing to consider is this: Some say there is a national repentance specific to the Jews, which might be why Peter told them they needed to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
the thing is, Peter did not say this, the original text does not allow it.

Peter told ALL to repent, and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (2nd person plural)

He then told those who repented to be baptized in the name of Jesus because they received remission of sin (3rd person singular)
 

Didymous

Senior Member
Feb 22, 2018
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the thing is, Peter did not say this, the original text does not allow it.

Peter told ALL to repent, and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (2nd person plural)

He then told those who repented to be baptized in the name of Jesus because they received remission of sin (3rd person singular)
So what are you saying then, that the bible is wrong?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
So what are you saying then, that the bible is wrong?
the bible is wrong?

How can the bible be wrong?

The english interpretation? There are flaws in it, it is just an interpretation. Thats one of the reasons we need to study,