For Non Tongue Speakers Only

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Enow

Banned
Dec 21, 2012
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#41
So Im confused enow,do you believe in tongues or do you not? Could you be a little clearer,thanks.
God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people. It has to come with interpretation in the assembly. It is not to serve as a sign towards believers for anything say for example like God calling them into the ministry. Tongues are not used as a sign towards believers, but towards unbelievers. 1 Corinthians 14:20-22

There is a supernatural tongue in the world which is just vain & profane babbling before God's gift of tongues had come at Pentecost to speak unto the people in their native tongue. Isaiah 8:19

The Holy Spirit cannot speak for Himself, but speak what He hears as Jesus testified in John 16:13 in all BIBLES.

That is why God's gift of tongues will never be used by the Holy Spirit as a personal prayer tongue as His groaning cannot be uttered, hence no sound at all; Romans 8:26 KJV only.

That is why John said not to believe every spirit, but test them. 1 John 4:1

Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world 1 John 4:4 means that since the Holy Spirit has been in you since your salvation, then any spirit coming over you bringing that tongue which is the same kind of tongue that is found in the world as vain & profane babbling is not the Holy Spirit nor God's gift of tongues for speaking unto the people. 1 John 4:5-6

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world......[SUP]4 [/SUP]Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.[SUP] 6 [/SUP]We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Isaiah 8:[SUP]19 [/SUP]And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#42
You have been taking verses out of context of what Paul is saying in how you "try" to validate tongues coming without interpretation. By doing so you ignore how you apply those verses out of context when it goes against the plain truth of scripture as stated in all modern Bibles that the Holy Spirit CANNOT speak for Himself but speak what He hears in John 16:13.

Only the Lord can lead you to normal prayer in asking Him to confirm His word to you of John 16:13 for you to see your error.
Enow said:
The purpose of tongues is for God to speak unto the people in their native tongue
The Bible said:
1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
What you claim tongues is DIRECTLY contradicts scripture. Until you can see this, there is no hope that you can understand.

1 Cor 14:
38) But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
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83
#43

Enow

Banned
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
#44
Sorry, I'm not interested in these videos. From my understanding of scripture the ability to speak in tongues is one of the gifts that God gives to certain individuals but it is of no value to anyone unless there is someone there with the gift of interpretation. Speaking in tongues is not one of the gifts that God has given me and personally I have no opinion one way or another on this topic. Truthfully, I don't find participating in banter back and forth on the pros and cons of speaking in tongues to be edifying for myself.
When tongues that is vain & profane babbling has been gained by apostasy, then it is about keeping the faith which is the good fight. But only the Lord can prove that part of the discussion with you to be true.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;[SUP] 2 [/SUP]Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2 Corinthians 13:[SUP]5 [/SUP]Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

2 Corinthians 11:[SUP]3 [/SUP]But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Believers testify of feeling what they had assumed was the Holy Spirit coming over them later on in life bringing this tongue which comes with no interpretation, when the Holy Spirit was already in them since they were saved by coming to & believing in Jesus Christ. That is why John said to test the spirits because any one feeling the spirit coming over them when the real Holy Spirit has been in them since salvation, and when it brings tongues as found in the occult as vain & profane babbling with no interpretation at all, it is not God's gift of tongues.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world......[SUP]4 [/SUP]Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.[SUP]6 [/SUP]We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Isaiah 8:[SUP]19 [/SUP]And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

1 Corinthians 14:
[SUP] 20 [/SUP]Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.[SUP] 21 [/SUP]In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.[SUP] 22 [/SUP]Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe............[SUP]32 [/SUP]And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.[SUP]33 [/SUP]For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

So believers need a reminder of the tradition we have been taught as Paul exposed this lie about receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation by reminding them of that tradition of when they ha received the Holy Spirit.

2 Thessalonians 2:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:[SUP]14 [/SUP]Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.[SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

It is all about keeping the faith which is the good fight as many believers are departing from faith in hypocrisy when Jesus Christ is in them when believing that was the Holy Spirit coming over them separate from salvation in bringing that tongue which is why it never comes with interpretation but is just vain & profane babbling as found in the occult and in the world as the world speaks in that supernatural tongue.
 

Enow

Banned
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
#45
What you claim tongues is DIRECTLY contradicts scripture. Until you can see this, there is no hope that you can understand.

1 Cor 14:
38) But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Your error continues:

1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Concerning Paul's quote of Isa 28:11, please see here: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/154806-tongue-speakers-survey-6.html#post3170307
Here is how you are taking that verse out of context... once again. We shall go line by line.

1 Corinthians 14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

Paul addressed those that desire spiritual gift to seek the gift of prophesy.

Now don't go ignoring that exhortation of verse 1 when you read verse 2, because Paul is explaining why he said that in verse 1 when he began talking about God's gift of tongues by itself.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

That is how Paul was explaining why prophesy is better than tongues because no one understands what is being said except God, which is why tongues is not a stand alone gift that it has to come with interpretation in the assembly

You took verse 2 out of context and failed to see why prophesy is better. The way you had applied verse 2, you do not know why prophesy is better and I bet you still do not see why prophesy is better than tongues in verse 2.

That same tongue in verse 2 is the same tongue thru out that chapter that needs to come with interpretation.

The tongue speaker is not truly edified until it is interpreted for that tongue to be fruitful to the tongue speaker. That is why tongues is not a stand alone gift, BUT you keep applying verse 2 out of context of verse 1 to say that it is and continue to fail to see why Paul was exhorting the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts, especially tongues.

Paul gave the bottom line on tongues in verses 20-21 in case people were misreading him and that God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people. He did not quickly add that it was also a prayer language. He left tongues defined as that alone for God to speak unto the people.

God is not a confusing God to turn tongues around to speak back to Himself because the Holy Spirit can only speak what He hears as John 16:13 testifies in ALL Bibles. You are IGNORING that truth in scripture when the Holy Spirit CANNOT speak for Himself to use tongues as a personal prayer language.

John 16:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

You will not acknowledge that verse in what is plainly written for you to see the truth in His words. You keep applying 1 Corinthians 14:2 out of context and thinks.. God could not really mean that in John 16:13. But He did.

Only God can help you to see your error. I am helpless in this. I pray others that agree with me, shall pray for you and all tongue speakers because this is a war of principality in defending the faith in Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 6:[SUP]10 [/SUP]Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#46
It seems most Christians' view of tongues ranges from apathy ("why should we care? Jesus didn't speak in tongues.") to actively speaking against it and condemning it (see Enow's posts).

In Acts 2, upon receiving the Holy Spirit, the apostles spoke in tongues.

In Acts 10, Peter knew that Cornelius and his family had received the Holy Spirit because they spoke in tongues.

In Acts 19, the first thing Paul asked the believers about was whether they had received the Holy Spirit. They hadn't even heard of it. Paul taught them, prayed for them, and the result was they spoke in tongues.

Paul spoke in tongues more than the entire Corinthian church (1 Cor 14:18).

Paul (writing by revelation) said that he wanted all of them to speak in tongues (1 Cor 14:5a).

In Eph 6:18, Paul (writing by revelation) encourages Christians to always pray in the Spirit, and we know from 1 Cor 14 that praying in the spirit is speaking in tongues.

In Jude 1:20, Christians are encouraged to build themselves up by praying in the Holy Spirit.

It seems to me that this is something all Christians, rather than being apathetic, should at LEAST be curious about. And Christians should NEVER condemn it (1 Cor 14:39).

Also note that in Acts 2, 10, and 19, there is no record of the people who spoke in tongues giving the interpretation, so Enow's claim that tongues without interpretation is "tongues of the devil" is without merit.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#47
Paul was not speaking about an angelic language, He was speaking about an earthly language.

It is not about apathy or condemning, rather about truly understanding what the gift of tongues is and when and why it would be manifested or needed in any age or time period.


It seems most Christians' view of tongues ranges from apathy ("why should we care? Jesus didn't speak in tongues.") to actively speaking against it and condemning it (see Enow's posts).

In Acts 2, upon receiving the Holy Spirit, the apostles spoke in tongues.

In Acts 10, Peter knew that Cornelius and his family had received the Holy Spirit because they spoke in tongues.

In Acts 19, the first thing Paul asked the believers about was whether they had received the Holy Spirit. They hadn't even heard of it. Paul taught them, prayed for them, and the result was they spoke in tongues.

Paul spoke in tongues more than the entire Corinthian church (1 Cor 14:18).

Paul (writing by revelation) said that he wanted all of them to speak in tongues (1 Cor 14:5a).

In Eph 6:18, Paul (writing by revelation) encourages Christians to always pray in the Spirit, and we know from 1 Cor 14 that praying in the spirit is speaking in tongues.

In Jude 1:20, Christians are encouraged to build themselves up by praying in the Holy Spirit.

It seems to me that this is something all Christians, rather than being apathetic, should at LEAST be curious about. And Christians should NEVER condemn it (1 Cor 14:39).

Also note that in Acts 2, 10, and 19, there is no record of the people who spoke in tongues giving the interpretation, so Enow's claim that tongues without interpretation is "tongues of the devil" is without merit.
 
May 12, 2017
2,641
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#48
This thread is for non tongue speakers to be free to edify one another and sharing short videos exposing tongues without interpretation which is also not being understood by a foreigner as not of the Lord.

I just think that a thread should be provided so that tongue speakers will not feel victimized as we share videos and criticize the videos in according to His words or add to the video, edification so that those whom are on the fence about that kind of tongue, the Lord may help them not to seek after it, but after the gift of prophesy instead as Paul instructed.

1 Corinthians 14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.....[SUP]20 [/SUP]Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.[SUP]21 [/SUP]In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
The devil's tongues which is vain & profane babbling existed in the world before Pentecost; therefore since we are to prove all things and abstain from all appearances of evil, God's gift of tongues can never be just vain & profane babbling.

1 Thessalonians 5:[SUP]21 [/SUP]Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.[SUP]22 [/SUP]Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Isaiah 8:[SUP]19 [/SUP]And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Here is a short video of a fellow believer reproving vain tongue speakers for using Mark 16:17-18 for that kind of tongue.

I point out though that he should have clarified that no one is to test the Lord our God by that reference of Mark 16:17-18 as Paul did not do that when he was attacked by a viper in that other reference that the guy talked about in reproving using Mark 16:17-18 in that way.

[video=youtube;eRVomV3PgOw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRVomV3PgOw[/video]

To add to this video... he had referred to Revelation 13:13, but I would point out the warning to the church at Thyatira as speaking in tongues without interpretation as speaking the utter depths of Satan for which they speak.

Revelation 2:[SUP]18 [/SUP]And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;[SUP] 19 [/SUP]I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.[SUP] 20 [/SUP]Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.[SUP] 21 [/SUP]And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.[SUP] 22 [/SUP]Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.[SUP]23 [/SUP]And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.[SUP]24 [/SUP]But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.[SUP]25 [/SUP]But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

If any of you like to share a short video from Youtube to expose that kind of tongues as not of the Lord, feel free to do so.

You can even share a video by a vain tongue speaker to reprove it by commentary with scripture if you prefer.

I can't stop those who defend tongues from replying, but I thought it would be nice to have just a thread where tongue speakers do not feel like they are being victimized for having that kind of tongue to avoid this thread altogether.

I believe in God's gift of tongues to speak unto the people, but all believers when zealous for spiritual gifts, are to seek the gift of prophesy which is to edify the body of believers in your normal tongue. Seek that instead of tongues.
I have reported you again for making a thread exclusionary and by doing so you break fellowship with other brothers and sisters. You continue to spread personal disbelief, sow discord and spreading strife among believers.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#49
Paul spoke in tongues more than the entire Corinthian church (1 Cor 14:18).

Paul (writing by revelation) said that he wanted all of them to speak in tongues (1 Cor 14:5a).
When you take a sentence out of context it is amazing how it can mean something completely different than what the author had originally intended.

Reminds of how some people argue that Paul condoned slavery, or women should only pray with a veil on their head, or that women should never speak in an assembly and on and on.....

All this argument and division on different topics because it is not being read within the passage, Paul so often is building an argument and making comparisons, it could be a chiastic structure, hyperbole, figurative, or it is not read within the context of the whole letter or within the context of the finished work of Christ or the entire plan of redemption.



It seems most Christians' view of tongues ranges from apathy ("why should we care? Jesus didn't speak in tongues.") to actively speaking against it and condemning it (see Enow's posts).

In Acts 2, upon receiving the Holy Spirit, the apostles spoke in tongues.

In Acts 10, Peter knew that Cornelius and his family had received the Holy Spirit because they spoke in tongues.

In Acts 19, the first thing Paul asked the believers about was whether they had received the Holy Spirit. They hadn't even heard of it. Paul taught them, prayed for them, and the result was they spoke in tongues.

Paul spoke in tongues more than the entire Corinthian church (1 Cor 14:18).

Paul (writing by revelation) said that he wanted all of them to speak in tongues (1 Cor 14:5a).

In Eph 6:18, Paul (writing by revelation) encourages Christians to always pray in the Spirit, and we know from 1 Cor 14 that praying in the spirit is speaking in tongues.

In Jude 1:20, Christians are encouraged to build themselves up by praying in the Holy Spirit.

It seems to me that this is something all Christians, rather than being apathetic, should at LEAST be curious about. And Christians should NEVER condemn it (1 Cor 14:39).

Also note that in Acts 2, 10, and 19, there is no record of the people who spoke in tongues giving the interpretation, so Enow's claim that tongues without interpretation is "tongues of the devil" is without merit.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#50
Here is how you are taking that verse out of context... once again. We shall go line by line.

1 Corinthians 14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
The word for "gifts" is not in the text. The word is "pneumatikos", and it means "spiritual things", or "spiritual matters".

Paul addressed those that desire spiritual gift to seek the gift of prophesy.
There is nothing about "seeking the gift of prophesy", but that they may prophesy.

Now don't go ignoring that exhortation of verse 1 when you read verse 2, because Paul is explaining why he said that in verse 1 when he began talking about God's gift of tongues by itself.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

That is how Paul was explaining why prophesy is better than tongues because no one understands what is being said except God, which is why tongues is not a stand alone gift that it has to come with interpretation in the assembly
Prophesy is not "better" than tongues. Please read v5:

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

You took verse 2 out of context and failed to see why prophesy is better. The way you had applied verse 2, you do not know why prophesy is better and I bet you still do not see why prophesy is better than tongues in verse 2.
Prophesy is not "better" than tongues. Please read v5:

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

That same tongue in verse 2 is the same tongue thru out that chapter that needs to come with interpretation.
If you are talking about in the church, we agree. When speaking in tongues out loud in public, tongues must always be interpreted.

The tongue speaker is not truly edified until it is interpreted for that tongue to be fruitful to the tongue speaker.
That is not true. People who speak in tongues are edified whether they interpret or not. When tongues is interpreted in a meeting, the church is edified.

That is why tongues is not a stand alone gift
Tongues is not a gift. It is a manifestation of the gift of the Holy spirit.

BUT you keep applying verse 2 out of context of verse 1 to say that it is and continue to fail to see why Paul was exhorting the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts, especially tongues.
I am not applying verse 2 out of context with verse 1. Verse 2 states what tongues is. Your claim is that tongues is God speaking to people in their own language. Verse 2 flat out states that when a person speaks in tongues he is NOT speaking to people, but to God, and that nobody understands (which is why when done in public, tongues must be interpreted).

Paul gave the bottom line on tongues in verses 20-21 in case people were misreading him and that God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people.
I explained that here:
shrume said:
Concerning 1 Cor 14:21-22:
21) In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22) Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Verse 21 is a reference to Isa 28:11.
11) For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

That is not a prophesy of speaking in tongues. Israel had been disobedient, and because of that, God was not able to protect them from their enemies. They were about to be conquered by the Assyrians, who would speak to them in the Assyrian language, which the Israelites did not understand. That they had been conquered by an enemy nation should have been a sign to them that they had strayed from God.

Just as hearing the strange Assyrian language was a sign to Israel, tongues should be a sign to unbelievers. If an unbeliever hears someone speaking in tongues, he should realize that something strange (to him) is happening, and want to learn more.
He did not quickly add that it was also a prayer language.
1 Cor 14:
27) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

He left tongues defined as that alone for God to speak unto the people.
1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

God is not a confusing God to turn tongues around to speak back to Himself because the Holy Spirit can only speak what He hears as John 16:13 testifies in ALL Bibles.
When a person speaks in tongues, THE PERSON is speaking in tongues. THE PERSON can start when he wants, stop when he wants, speak out loud when he wants, speak quietly to himself when he wants, etc.

John 16:13 has nothing at all to do with speaking in tongues.

You are IGNORING that truth in scripture when the Holy Spirit CANNOT speak for Himself to use tongues as a personal prayer language.

John 16:[SUP]13 [/SUP]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

You will not acknowledge that verse in what is plainly written for you to see the truth in His words. You keep applying 1 Corinthians 14:2 out of context and thinks.. God could not really mean that in John 16:13. But He did.
John 16:13 has nothing at all to do with speaking in tongues.

Only God can help you to see your error.
I could say the same thing to you. Or, you could simply read and understand the scriptures.

I am helpless in this.
You don't have to be.

I pray others that agree with me, shall pray for you and all tongue speakers because this is a war of principality in defending the faith in Jesus Christ.
I pray that people read the scriptures for themselves and that God can help them understand what tongues is, that they indeed have the power and ability to do it, and that God wants them to do it.

Ephesians 6:[SUP]10 [/SUP]Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Amen! And don't forget verse 18:

Eph 6:
18) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

"Praying in the Spirit" is speaking in tongues (1 Cor 14:14-15).
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#51
Paul was not speaking about an angelic language, He was speaking about an earthly language.
Paul was speaking about a language. Speaking in tongues can be a language of men or of angels.

It is not about apathy or condemning, rather about truly understanding what the gift of tongues is
Agreed! I submit that most Christians haven't got a clue.

and when and why it would be manifested or needed in any age or time period.
God made it available on the day of Pentecost, not before, and He wants all Christians to do it so they can be built up (1 Cor 14:5; Eph 6:18; Jude 1:20)
 
May 12, 2017
2,641
65
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#52
This thread is deceptive & destructive, with videos that are telling half-truths & downright lies.

Firstly, the Op needs to get educated about the Pentecostal Movement & the charismatic movement.

They are separate, distinct movements. The P.M. started in 1906 with christians of all denominations & colors worshiping in full agreement in the Holy Spirit.

The CM started within the Roman Catholic Church in the early 1960's

Even Wikipedia says they're nothing alike.

Ignorant, idiotic statements, for example, stating that the AoG is of the charismatic movement is a total fabrication.

The Pentecostal Movement has suffered for years from the likes of John MacArthur stating they were one & the same.

This is a slanderous trick to destroy the truth, to get people to turn from the Pentecostal Movement.

Has tongues been abused & faked? You betcha. So is every gift of the Spirit. Satan has been doing this thru the televangelists for decades.

Everybody wants to harp on the tongues issue when the Bible itself proclaims that the teaching gifts & the gift of prophecy are the two most abused & faked gifts in the church.

In all of Paul's epistles, he warns about false teachers & prophets. THEY'RE EVERYWHERE.
I reported this thread and ENOW to the mods....by making the thread exclusionary and stating so, he is breaking the TOS of the website by breaking fellowship with others.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#53
When you take a sentence out of context it is amazing how it can mean something completely different than what the author had originally intended.
Please tell me what verse(s) you believe I have taken out of context.

Reminds of how some people argue that Paul condoned slavery, or women should only pray with a veil on their head, or that women should never speak in an assembly and on and on.....

All this argument and division on different topics because it is not being read within the passage, Paul so often is building an argument and making comparisons, it could be a chiastic structure, hyperbole, figurative, or it is not read within the context of the whole letter or within the context of the finished work of Christ or the entire plan of redemption.
While I heartily agree with you, please tell me what verse(s) you believe I have taken out of context.
 

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
788
158
43
#54
To sort of underscore what others have said regarding tongue as language - here's a question that is frequently asked particularly of linguists:

“How do you know that (modern) 'tongues' are not a language; heavenly, angelic, or otherwise?” "How can you prove that they're not?"

Great question! It’s one however, that definitely does not have a quick and easy answer.

I’ll try and sum it up as best and concisely as I can (apologies for the long post - again). Whether solid enough 'proof', I will leave to the reader to decide.....

When discussing what makes up language, there are a number of factors one must consider. Let’s start with one of the easier ones; phonology. Phonology concerns itself with the sounds of a given language and how those sounds are put together such that they become acceptable to all speakers of that language. Phonology also defines what is allowed and disallowed with respect to how the sounds are put together. In addition, suprasegmental elements such as stress (accent/pitch/tone) are also considered.

With tongues (hereafter T-speech) phonology is unique to the phenomenon; a speaker’s T-speech will only contain those sounds found in that speaker’s native language and any other language s/he may be familiar with (actively or passively). It’s important to keep in mind that the sounds may also contain those found in other languages the speaker is familiar with – this is something that’s frequently overlooked and leads people to think that because some sounds produced do not occur in the speaker’s native language, it must be legitimate “tongues”.

Further, even within that set of sounds (called a ‘phonemic inventory’), a ‘tongue’ will typically only contain a select smaller number (a subset) of those sounds. Typically, this subset will consist of sounds that are easier to produce in the vocal tract. For example, it’s much easier to produce a ‘sh’ sound than it is to produce a ‘j’ sound. The ‘sh’ does not require a great deal of effort to produce.

What is also found in T-speech is that any disallowed combinations of sounds in the speaker’s native language (and those s/he is also familiar with) will also be disallowed in the speaker’s T-speech.

For the most part, accent, tone, word stress, etc. will also echo the speaker’s native language.

From the above, one can easily see that T-speech will never contain a different, unique phonemic inventory specific to that ‘tongue’ which totally differs from the speaker’s native language. We are simply dealing with a subset of the sounds found in the speaker’s native language typically containing the easiest sounds to produce (linguistically).

As a simple example, an American English speaker’s T-speech will never contain the click sounds found in some languages of southern Africa (unless, of course, that speaker has had contact in some way with those languages).

The fact that ‘tongues’ do not contain any unique sounds not found in the speaker’s own language(s) however cannot be the sole defining factor of whether you have an actual language or not. Other things also need to be considered.

The main defining factor for most Linguists with respect to T-speech is the ‘words’ themselves.

Every language contains something called ‘morphemes’. These are the smallest meaningful units in a given language. Morphemes come in two flavors; free and bound. As an example, take the word “players” – this word contains three morphemes; one free, two bound. ‘Play’ is a verb; it describes an action. It is also a free morpheme as it can stand alone as a word all by itself. The ‘–er’ is a morpheme of English that takes a verb and creates a noun out of it denoting the doer of the action described in the verb. In this case the ‘–er’ indicates “(some)one who plays”. It is a bound morpheme since it cannot be used on its own. Finally, we have the ‘-s’. This is the plural marker in English and it is also a bound morpheme. So ‘players’ has three distinct morphemes which make up the word: “play +er +s”.

My point is that for something to be a language, it must have morphemes; they are the bits and pieces that create language – sounds are put together in syllables and syllables are used to form morphemes. Without morphemes, you don’t have language. It’s just that simple. You may have something that is a façade of language, sounds like one, but it is nonetheless not language.

Morphemes, once put together to make words, are then put together by means of a defined grammar to make phrases. For example, let’s use a ‘noun phrase’ (NP). A non-phrase contains an optional article (definite or indefinite, i.e. ‘the’ or’ a/an’) + a noun + an optional plural marker, i.e. NP= (article) NOUN (plural marker). Other examples of phrases include verb phrase, prepositional phrase, adverb phrase, etc.

All languages have some type of grammar – grammar being simply an agreed upon way in which these phrases are put together to make a cohesive, intelligible sentence to speakers of that language. Grammar also involves an agreed upon way in which to order these words/phrases. This is known as syntax.

Here’s the thing…..

T-speech does not contain any of the above features. You cannot write a ‘sentence’ down in T-speech and break it down into phrases and then break those phrases down into individual morphemes. T-speech does not contain morphemes and, as mentioned above, without morphemes, you don’t have language.

If you were to write down a ‘sentence’ of T-speech, there’s no way anyone can point to a given ‘word’ in that sentence and say, “this means ‘X’”, or “this little part on this word here denotes the plural.”

Further, a given morpheme in a language cannot have several different ‘interpretations/meanings’.

Let’s take a look at this....

In T-speech, if one were to record a sample and play it to several people who ‘interpret tongues,’ one would get several different interpretations; usually totally different and unrelated to each other. Occasionally, some similarities may be noted between interpretations, but given the religious context, an occasional similarity is to be expected.

Language simply does not work that way. You can’t have multiple meanings/interpretations for the same sentence; As someone once said, “Pentecostal Darwinism does not exist – you can’t have multiple meanings to justify an obvious discrepancy.“ You can however certainly have subtleties that change the nuance of what’s being said, but “The brown dog is big.” can never be “The white cat is small.” which is what happens frequently with T-speech with respect to multiple interpretations for the same ‘sentence’.

T-speech fails on even the simplest definition and criteria of what communication and language consists of and what it is.

In addition to the above, one other element must also be considered. Languages will contain a lexicon. A lexicon is simply a ‘dictionary’, if you will, of morphemes with their meanings. When one learns a language, one is learning a lexicon as well – all the meaningful particles of that language and their assigned meaning. T-speech does not have anything even remotely suggestive of a lexicon.

If one were to imagine a purely hypothetical situation just for the purpose of this exercise – an alien craft lands and beings emerge and begin speaking to humans in a language which no one on earth has ever heard before. That language will contain morphemes, a grammar, a lexicon, and although we may not have the physical ability to reproduce them, phonemes. These things are universal to language. Even the meowing patterns of cats, the songs of the humpback whale, and the ‘dancing patterns’ of honeybees all conform to the criteria of ‘communication’ with respect to a single general meaning to a specific pattern. T-speech does not have this – can’t have several different meanings for the same utterance.

Lastly, there are no two ‘tongues’ that are exactly alike. Each one is unique to the individual speaker. Oftentimes speakers report being able to produce several different ‘tongues’ – This is just the subconscious drawing upon a different subset set of phonemes – the same set isn’t always used every time a person speaks and thus, it comes across as a totally different ‘tongue’.

That said, there’s a lot of copying of particular ‘phrases’ or ‘words’ that well known pastors use that speakers will unconsciously pick up on and copy. Whether or not it’s from the internet and various YouTube type videos, I don’t know. One that I hear frequently is “kishanda” usually pronounced “kee-SHAHN-dah” (which I would argue it is simply derived from a corrupted pronunciation of the English word “Sunday”).

Another rarer element of T-speech is the corrupting of actual words (in the speaker’s native language) to fit the syllable and sound structure of that speaker’s T-speech. One speaker from Australia (whose T-speech was studied and transcribed) used a lot of such words.

“Phrases” in T-speech are often inter-dispersed with praise phrases in the speaker’s native language. It’s not uncommon to hear a speaker say things like “Praise Jesus”, “Hallelujah”, “In Jesus’ name”, etc. while engaged in T-speech. It seems to lend to the ‘authenticity’ of the practice.

Given the above factors, there is simply no way to argue, no matter how you slice and dice it, for modern tongues as language.

There are, as many people point out, thousands of languages in the world, even ancient ones that are no longer spoken – how do we know tongues isn’t one of them? By the same criteria as described above. And, yes, there are indeed thousands of languages spoken in the world today – but not one of them is remotely close to what people are producing in their glossolalia/tongues.

On a more esoteric note/new-agey note (and one can either take this or leave it), if tongues were a "universal heavenly language", there'd only be one; not one unique one for each individual speaker; that just doesn't stand to reason. Why would there be a need for more than one?

One could also argue that tongues, being a ‘heavenly’ language does not need to have all these things described above. It’s a “heavenly language” not bound by any human definitions of language. The constraints described above however, are, as mentioned, universal – if you utter a string of syllables and call it language, those syllables must have some type of structure which defines it and assign it meaning (morphemic structure, grammar, syntax, etc.), otherwise it’s simply free vocalization produced by the subconscious; non-cognitive non-language utterances (NC-NLU’s) – the best working and most accurate description of modern T-speech.

Without getting into lengthy discussions (already done on other post topics regarding tongues), in all cases where the Bible talks about ‘tongues’ it is simply a reference to real language – there’s nothing in those passages that cannot be explained in the context of real language. I would even argue that in some cases, given the context of a particular situation, it’s much easier to understand the passage in terms of real language than it is ‘tongues’.
 
May 12, 2017
2,641
65
0
#55
Just by the title of the thread it is inviting people who believe in speaking in tongues and who don't believe to debate. To me it is offensive to exclude people just because they believe in tongues. Believers in Christ are to welcome all believers in Christ regardless of what they believe or don't believe about things that are not foundational to the faith( meaning are not neccessary to believe in in order to be saved). We are also to welcome people who don't believe in Christ. We ought to love people regardless of what they believe or don't believe.
This is why I reported the thread and the author, he is being exclusionary. He did that on purpose so those who believe in tongues and interpretation or personal prayer in tongues would post and he could continue in causing intentional strife among brothers and sisters...Proverbs 6.19
 

Enow

Banned
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
#56
The word for "gifts" is not in the text. The word is "pneumatikos", and it means "spiritual things", or "spiritual matters".
You claim that by going to the original Greek but you will not do that for Romans 8:26 when going to the original Greek when it is His groaning which cannot be uttered, hence no sound at all.

Gifts in 1 Corinthians 12:4 was translated from the Greek word "carismatwn" so I do not know where you got your Greek word from.

HTML Bible Index - King James Version - Strongs Concordance - Frames Version

Kind of convenient when going to the original Greek and ignoring what the original Greek is saying about His intercessions as being unspeakable which cannot be uttered at all.

alalhtoV or alaletos is defined for Romans 8:26 as "from a - a 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of lalew - laleo 2980; unspeakable:--unutterable, which cannot be uttered."

That is about His intercessions. Period.
 

Enow

Banned
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
#57
This is why I reported the thread and the author, he is being exclusionary. He did that on purpose so those who believe in tongues and interpretation or personal prayer in tongues would post and he could continue in causing intentional strife among brothers and sisters...Proverbs 6.19
As if tongue speakers are not complaining enough about threads speaking against their kind of tongues which comes with no interpretation....

I thought I would spare them and just invite non-tongue speakers only to this thread, but I cannot stop them as stated in the OP, but already they are complaining and you don't see why I entitled the thread this way?

I'd thought you had me on ignore. Can't find the button?
 

Enow

Banned
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
#58
To sort of underscore what others have said regarding tongue as language - here's a question that is frequently asked particularly of linguists:

“How do you know that (modern) 'tongues' are not a language; heavenly, angelic, or otherwise?” "How can you prove that they're not?"

Great question! It’s one however, that definitely does not have a quick and easy answer.

I’ll try and sum it up as best and concisely as I can (apologies for the long post - again). Whether solid enough 'proof', I will leave to the reader to decide.....

When discussing what makes up language, there are a number of factors one must consider. Let’s start with one of the easier ones; phonology. Phonology concerns itself with the sounds of a given language and how those sounds are put together such that they become acceptable to all speakers of that language. Phonology also defines what is allowed and disallowed with respect to how the sounds are put together. In addition, suprasegmental elements such as stress (accent/pitch/tone) are also considered.

With tongues (hereafter T-speech) phonology is unique to the phenomenon; a speaker’s T-speech will only contain those sounds found in that speaker’s native language and any other language s/he may be familiar with (actively or passively). It’s important to keep in mind that the sounds may also contain those found in other languages the speaker is familiar with – this is something that’s frequently overlooked and leads people to think that because some sounds produced do not occur in the speaker’s native language, it must be legitimate “tongues”.

Further, even within that set of sounds (called a ‘phonemic inventory’), a ‘tongue’ will typically only contain a select smaller number (a subset) of those sounds. Typically, this subset will consist of sounds that are easier to produce in the vocal tract. For example, it’s much easier to produce a ‘sh’ sound than it is to produce a ‘j’ sound. The ‘sh’ does not require a great deal of effort to produce.

What is also found in T-speech is that any disallowed combinations of sounds in the speaker’s native language (and those s/he is also familiar with) will also be disallowed in the speaker’s T-speech.

For the most part, accent, tone, word stress, etc. will also echo the speaker’s native language.

From the above, one can easily see that T-speech will never contain a different, unique phonemic inventory specific to that ‘tongue’ which totally differs from the speaker’s native language. We are simply dealing with a subset of the sounds found in the speaker’s native language typically containing the easiest sounds to produce (linguistically).

As a simple example, an American English speaker’s T-speech will never contain the click sounds found in some languages of southern Africa (unless, of course, that speaker has had contact in some way with those languages).

The fact that ‘tongues’ do not contain any unique sounds not found in the speaker’s own language(s) however cannot be the sole defining factor of whether you have an actual language or not. Other things also need to be considered.

The main defining factor for most Linguists with respect to T-speech is the ‘words’ themselves.

Every language contains something called ‘morphemes’. These are the smallest meaningful units in a given language. Morphemes come in two flavors; free and bound. As an example, take the word “players” – this word contains three morphemes; one free, two bound. ‘Play’ is a verb; it describes an action. It is also a free morpheme as it can stand alone as a word all by itself. The ‘–er’ is a morpheme of English that takes a verb and creates a noun out of it denoting the doer of the action described in the verb. In this case the ‘–er’ indicates “(some)one who plays”. It is a bound morpheme since it cannot be used on its own. Finally, we have the ‘-s’. This is the plural marker in English and it is also a bound morpheme. So ‘players’ has three distinct morphemes which make up the word: “play +er +s”.

My point is that for something to be a language, it must have morphemes; they are the bits and pieces that create language – sounds are put together in syllables and syllables are used to form morphemes. Without morphemes, you don’t have language. It’s just that simple. You may have something that is a façade of language, sounds like one, but it is nonetheless not language.

Morphemes, once put together to make words, are then put together by means of a defined grammar to make phrases. For example, let’s use a ‘noun phrase’ (NP). A non-phrase contains an optional article (definite or indefinite, i.e. ‘the’ or’ a/an’) + a noun + an optional plural marker, i.e. NP= (article) NOUN (plural marker). Other examples of phrases include verb phrase, prepositional phrase, adverb phrase, etc.

All languages have some type of grammar – grammar being simply an agreed upon way in which these phrases are put together to make a cohesive, intelligible sentence to speakers of that language. Grammar also involves an agreed upon way in which to order these words/phrases. This is known as syntax.

Here’s the thing…..

T-speech does not contain any of the above features. You cannot write a ‘sentence’ down in T-speech and break it down into phrases and then break those phrases down into individual morphemes. T-speech does not contain morphemes and, as mentioned above, without morphemes, you don’t have language.

If you were to write down a ‘sentence’ of T-speech, there’s no way anyone can point to a given ‘word’ in that sentence and say, “this means ‘X’”, or “this little part on this word here denotes the plural.”

Further, a given morpheme in a language cannot have several different ‘interpretations/meanings’.

Let’s take a look at this....

In T-speech, if one were to record a sample and play it to several people who ‘interpret tongues,’ one would get several different interpretations; usually totally different and unrelated to each other. Occasionally, some similarities may be noted between interpretations, but given the religious context, an occasional similarity is to be expected.

Language simply does not work that way. You can’t have multiple meanings/interpretations for the same sentence; As someone once said, “Pentecostal Darwinism does not exist – you can’t have multiple meanings to justify an obvious discrepancy.“ You can however certainly have subtleties that change the nuance of what’s being said, but “The brown dog is big.” can never be “The white cat is small.” which is what happens frequently with T-speech with respect to multiple interpretations for the same ‘sentence’.

T-speech fails on even the simplest definition and criteria of what communication and language consists of and what it is.

In addition to the above, one other element must also be considered. Languages will contain a lexicon. A lexicon is simply a ‘dictionary’, if you will, of morphemes with their meanings. When one learns a language, one is learning a lexicon as well – all the meaningful particles of that language and their assigned meaning. T-speech does not have anything even remotely suggestive of a lexicon.

If one were to imagine a purely hypothetical situation just for the purpose of this exercise – an alien craft lands and beings emerge and begin speaking to humans in a language which no one on earth has ever heard before. That language will contain morphemes, a grammar, a lexicon, and although we may not have the physical ability to reproduce them, phonemes. These things are universal to language. Even the meowing patterns of cats, the songs of the humpback whale, and the ‘dancing patterns’ of honeybees all conform to the criteria of ‘communication’ with respect to a single general meaning to a specific pattern. T-speech does not have this – can’t have several different meanings for the same utterance.

Lastly, there are no two ‘tongues’ that are exactly alike. Each one is unique to the individual speaker. Oftentimes speakers report being able to produce several different ‘tongues’ – This is just the subconscious drawing upon a different subset set of phonemes – the same set isn’t always used every time a person speaks and thus, it comes across as a totally different ‘tongue’.

That said, there’s a lot of copying of particular ‘phrases’ or ‘words’ that well known pastors use that speakers will unconsciously pick up on and copy. Whether or not it’s from the internet and various YouTube type videos, I don’t know. One that I hear frequently is “kishanda” usually pronounced “kee-SHAHN-dah” (which I would argue it is simply derived from a corrupted pronunciation of the English word “Sunday”).

Another rarer element of T-speech is the corrupting of actual words (in the speaker’s native language) to fit the syllable and sound structure of that speaker’s T-speech. One speaker from Australia (whose T-speech was studied and transcribed) used a lot of such words.

“Phrases” in T-speech are often inter-dispersed with praise phrases in the speaker’s native language. It’s not uncommon to hear a speaker say things like “Praise Jesus”, “Hallelujah”, “In Jesus’ name”, etc. while engaged in T-speech. It seems to lend to the ‘authenticity’ of the practice.

Given the above factors, there is simply no way to argue, no matter how you slice and dice it, for modern tongues as language.

There are, as many people point out, thousands of languages in the world, even ancient ones that are no longer spoken – how do we know tongues isn’t one of them? By the same criteria as described above. And, yes, there are indeed thousands of languages spoken in the world today – but not one of them is remotely close to what people are producing in their glossolalia/tongues.

On a more esoteric note/new-agey note (and one can either take this or leave it), if tongues were a "universal heavenly language", there'd only be one; not one unique one for each individual speaker; that just doesn't stand to reason. Why would there be a need for more than one?

One could also argue that tongues, being a ‘heavenly’ language does not need to have all these things described above. It’s a “heavenly language” not bound by any human definitions of language. The constraints described above however, are, as mentioned, universal – if you utter a string of syllables and call it language, those syllables must have some type of structure which defines it and assign it meaning (morphemic structure, grammar, syntax, etc.), otherwise it’s simply free vocalization produced by the subconscious; non-cognitive non-language utterances (NC-NLU’s) – the best working and most accurate description of modern T-speech.

Without getting into lengthy discussions (already done on other post topics regarding tongues), in all cases where the Bible talks about ‘tongues’ it is simply a reference to real language – there’s nothing in those passages that cannot be explained in the context of real language. I would even argue that in some cases, given the context of a particular situation, it’s much easier to understand the passage in terms of real language than it is ‘tongues’.
Thanks for sharing that tongues without interpretation to be assumed as a tongues of angel, is a wrong assumption.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#59
You claim that by going to the original Greek but you will not do that for Romans 8:26 when going to the original Greek when it is His groaning which cannot be uttered, hence no sound at all.
It means groans which cannot be expressed in words, not that there is "no sound at all".

Gifts in 1 Corinthians 12:4 was translated from the Greek word "carismatwn" so I do not know where you got your Greek word from.
We were speaking of 1 Cor 14:1, where the word "gifts" is not in the texts, and not 1 Cor 12:4, where "gifts" IS in the texts.

HTML Bible Index - King James Version - Strongs Concordance - Frames Version

Kind of convenient when going to the original Greek and ignoring what the original Greek is saying about His intercessions as being unspeakable which cannot be uttered at all.

alalhtoV or alaletos is defined for Romans 8:26 as "from a - a 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of lalew - laleo 2980; unspeakable:--unutterable, which cannot be uttered."

That is about His intercessions. Period.
Addressed above.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#60
Thanks for sharing that tongues without interpretation to be assumed as a tongues of angel, is a wrong assumption.
Check kavik's profile. By his own admission, he is not a Christian. His interest in tongues is academic, and not biblical.