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Thread: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

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    Senior Member Galatians2-20's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grace777x70 View Post

    That is just a big pile of this...





    All works-based belief systems are against the truth that through faith by grace we are the righteousness of God in Christ and it is not a gift to receive every day. Do we receive the Lord every day and get saved? What nonsense.
    Not once have I stated that believers need to be saved every day. That is an accusation based on your own false assumptions.

    Faith places us in Christ. Faith in Christ's word, which includes abstaining from works of unrighteousness, keeps us there. How can you accuse me of preaching a works-based belief system when, in fact, I am stating the complete opposite? Again I ask you, SINCE WHEN IS IT A WORK NOT TO DO SOMETHING?

    As for my statement about Joseph Prince's doctrine, I have actually attended Bible college. I have studied comparative theology in light of Church of history with emphasis on the great Revivalists and the missions movement. Joseph Prince does not teach anything new. He simply borrows heavily from the "exchanged life" doctrine of the Keswick missions movement, as taught by the Asian Keswick teacher, Watchman Nee, then tries to insert "once saved, always saved" into the equation. Prince is not the first to do this Lewis Sperry Chafer did similarly in the early 20th century and even founded a bible college to promote his ideals. Perhaps you have heard of it: the Dallas Theological Seminary. How do I know this? Because I, too, embrace Keswick theology. Everything that I have shared with you are principles of the original "exchanged life" teaching. We exchanged our unrighteousness for the righteousness of Christ....

    Save your criticisms. Until you can factually prove me wrong, you are guilty of bearing false witness.

    Last edited by Galatians2-20; July 7th, 2017 at 07:13 AM.
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    It is the indwelling Spirit of Christ (he who is righteous) in our lives which saves us. It is the indwelling Spirit of Christ (he who is holy) in our lives which also sanctifies us. The only role that we play in either is to fix our gaze upon (trust in) Him and Him (Christ) alone, feasting (abiding) daily on His Presence (In Christ) which is the bread & water of life eternal. #SimpleGospel #UnionWithChrist

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderGrace View Post
    So so frustrating there just seems to be a never ending attack on the simple gospel.

    Your picture is most fitting!!!
    There is nothing "simple" about the doctrine of once saved, always saved. It's advocates rip verses out of context and apply a meaning to them that contradicts other verses.
    FranC likes this.
    It is the indwelling Spirit of Christ (he who is righteous) in our lives which saves us. It is the indwelling Spirit of Christ (he who is holy) in our lives which also sanctifies us. The only role that we play in either is to fix our gaze upon (trust in) Him and Him (Christ) alone, feasting (abiding) daily on His Presence (In Christ) which is the bread & water of life eternal. #SimpleGospel #UnionWithChrist

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

    Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grace777x70 View Post

    That is just a big pile of this...





    All works-based belief systems are against the truth that through faith by grace we are the righteousness of God in Christ and it is not a gift to receive every day. Do we receive the Lord every day and get saved? What nonsense.
    Here is an article the gives several examples of how leaders in the early Church spoke out against the heresies of the Gnostics in the 2nd & 3rd centuries, proving that it was the Gnostics who first introduced the doctrine of "once saved, always saved" into the Church. This doctrine was later embraced by Augustine, then John Calvin, who passed it along to Reformed Churches only to be embraced later by Baptists.

    Bible Question:

    Did the primitive church preach the doctrine of once saved always saved? My pastor says that this doctrine is heresy and it wasn't preached until after the 1500's during the Reformation. Was this in the Nicean creed?

    Bible Answer:


    The writings of the early church fathers indicate that they did not all agree with the statement “once saved always saved.” Some of the early Christian writers appear to have believed that a person could lose his or her salvation by sinning and others believed that a person could lose his or her salvation if he or she no longer believed in Jesus. Here are a variety of quotes from some very significant early church fathers.

    Justin Martyr – The first quote comes from Justin Martyr (A.D. 100-165).

    But I believe that even those, who have been persuaded . . . to observe the legal dispensation along with their confession of God in Christ, shall probably be saved. And I hold, further, that such as have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back from some cause to the legal dispensation, and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death, shall by no means be saved. Further, I hold that those of the seed of Abraham who live according to the law, and do not believe in this Christ before death, shall likewise not be saved . . . – Justin Martyr, Dialogue Of Justin 47

    At the end of the quote it is clear that Justin believes that anyone who denies Jesus is the Christ will not be saved; that is, he or she will go to hell. At the start of the passage, he is not sure that someone will be saved if he or she believes in Jesus but is disobedient. Justin believes that faith and obedience go together. He agrees with James 2:26 and 1 John 2:4 which say,
    For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. (NASB) James 2:26
    The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him . . . (NASB) 1 John 2:4
    The Bible teaches that someone who claims to be a Christian but does not live like one is a liar. They are not real Christians. Likewise, someone who might live like a Christian but does not believe in Jesus is not saved.

    Shepherd of Hermas – Some have claimed that the writer of the Pastor of Hermas or Shepherd of Hermas (A.D. 155-180) believed that a Christian could lose his or her salvation and quoted the following passage,

    They only who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as to those who keep not His commandments, there is no life in them. Shepherd of Hermas, 2.7 (A.D. 155).

    Another passage seems to say the same thing,

    And he said, “If you do not guard yourself against [anger], you and your house lose all hope of salvation . . . Hermas. Pastor of Hermas. Book 1.4.1.

    But just a few sentences away we read this,

    “Hear now,” said he, “how wicked is the action of anger, and in what way it overthrows the servants of God by its action, and turns them from righteousness. But [anger] does not turn away those who are full of faith, nor does it act on them, for the power of the Lord is with them. Hermas. Shepherd of Hermas. Book 1-2, Commandment Fourth, Chap. 1.

    This passage reveals that the author of the Shepherd of Hermas did not believe that a true Christian could lose his salvation.

    Irenaeus
    – The Christian writer, Irenaeus (A.D. 120-200), appears to believe that Christians are not “once saved always saved” with the following quote,

    Those who do not obey Him . . . have ceased to be His sons. – Irenaeus, Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 4.41.3.

    But several sentences earlier he said this,

    But with respect to obedience and doctrine we are not all the sons of God: those only are so who believe in Him and do His will. And those who do not believe, and do not obey His will, are sons and angels of the devil, because they do the works of the devil. Irenaeus, Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 41, 2.

    What is our conclusion? Irenaeus believed as Justin Martyr did. Faith and obedience go together. One must be connected to the other. Therefore, Irenaeus believed that a person who lives a life of disobedience is not a true Christian, even if he once claimed to be a Christian. He agrees with James 2:14-26.

    Tertullian – Tertullian (A.D. 150-220) makes the following statement which echoes the same message of 1 John 2:19.

    But what if a bishop, if a deacon, if a widow, if a virgin, if a doctor, if even a martyr, have fallen from the rule (of faith), will heresies on that account appear to possess the truth? Do we prove the faith by the persons, or the persons by the faith? No one is wise, no one is faithful, no one excels in dignity, but the Christian; and no one is a Christian but he who perseveres even to the end. Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heretics, Chap 3.

    1 John 2:19 says this,
    They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. (NASB) 1 John 2:19
    Throughout the New Testament the Holy Spirit has stated that a true Christian, one who believes in Jesus, will persevere or continue in the faith until the end. The following quote from Tertullian seems to imply that he believed a Christian could lose his or her salvation by disobedience. If so, we must remember that scripture contains the truth and not Tertullian.
    But the world returned unto sin; in which point baptism would ill be compared to the deluge. And so it is destined to fire; just as the man too is, who after baptism renews his sins: so that this also ought to be accepted as a sign for our admonition. Tertullian, On Repentance, 2.9

    Origen – The writer Origen (A.D. 185-254) said this,

    If there is any other nature which is holy, it possesses this property of being made holy by the reception or inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not having it by nature, but as an accidental quality, for which reason it may be lost, in consequence of being accidental. So also a man may possess an accidental righteousness, from which it is possible for him to fall away. Origen, Origen De Principilis, Book , Chap 8.

    Origen contrasts true righteousness, given by the Holy Spirit, to an “accidental” righteousness. Those who do have the righteousness of God, which is given by faith through Jesus Christ, are truly righteous.
    If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. (NASB) Rom. 8:10

    . . . the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe . . . (NASB) Rom. 3:22
    Origen seems to agree with this statement. Another quote from Origen echoes Christ’s teaching,

    He who has not denied himself, but denied Christ, will experience the saying, “I also will deny him.” – Origen. Gospel of Matthew. Book 12. 24.

    Jesus simply said that another who rejects Him will be rejected.
    But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. (NASB) Matt. 10:33
    Cyprian – The last quote comes from Cyprian,

    Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. Cyprian, Treatises of Cyprian. Treaties 1.6.

    He also echoes 1 John 2:19.
    Conclusion:

    These men wrote from about A.D. 100 – 250. We do not find any statements to the effect that once a Christian is saved, he or she is always saved. But we do find a consistent belief, except for a few instances, that faith and works go together. This is consistent with the teachings of the Bible.

    The earliest statement regarding “once saved always saved” comes from Augustine (A.D. 354-430).

    It was left to Augustine to speak a clear word for perseverance in pre-Reformation times. Starting with predestination, he saw that election to eternal life inevitably involves final perseverance. Since salvation is always God’s gift, he entitled his work on perseverance On the Gift of Perseverance. He denied, however, that the believer can have any assurance of his final salvation. Carl F. Henry. Basic Christian Doctrines. Baker Book House, 1962.

    It is important to note that the doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” did not appear in the literature of the church until the Reformation period. A review of the existing literature from the early church fathers suggests that most of them believed faith and works must both exist for a person to be a true Christian. While no person is perfect, the pattern of life must be present. Only a few seem to believe that a person can lose his or her salvation by disobedience. But it is also possible that they are only observing the biblical truth stated in James 2:17 and 1 John 2:19.
    Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. (NASB) James 2:17
    What is most important is, “Does the Bible teach, ‘Once Saved Always Saved.?'” The opinion of the early church fathers does not constitute truth. The early church fathers were not inspired authors. But Jesus and the apostles were. Jesus did not teach and the Bible does not teach that once a person believes in Jesus Christ he or she is going to heaven regardless of what he or she does in the future. James 2:26 captures the truth that faith and works go together. A true Christian will believe and obey. A true Christian will not leave the faith. Someone who claims to believe and lives like the world or leaves the faith is a liar, and 1 John 2:4 says the truth is not in him or her. However, we must remember that only God knows if one has actually left the faith. We do not see as God sees. The statement “Once Saved Always Saved” is misleading. It should be worded as follows, “Saved Only Once” or “Once Truly Saved Always Saved.” Once God selects people for salvation they have been selected and they will not depart from the faith. Those who have been truly saved will never depart from the faith. The Nicean Creed does not address this subject.

    https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-q...-always-saved/
    Last edited by Galatians2-20; July 7th, 2017 at 08:04 AM.
    Rosemaryx likes this.
    It is the indwelling Spirit of Christ (he who is righteous) in our lives which saves us. It is the indwelling Spirit of Christ (he who is holy) in our lives which also sanctifies us. The only role that we play in either is to fix our gaze upon (trust in) Him and Him (Christ) alone, feasting (abiding) daily on His Presence (In Christ) which is the bread & water of life eternal. #SimpleGospel #UnionWithChrist

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. (1 John 2:29)

    Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (1 John 3:7)

    And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness...but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. (Philippians 3:9)
    And they went out and preached that men should repent.
    (Mark 6:12)
    For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth. (Luke 22:27)

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    Senior Member UnderGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    They say history is written by winners, meaning that somehow these men were able to elevate themselves and leave a written record of their beliefs and that is about all

    Somehow they are so highly regarded as the early church fathers, however it seems to me they were already making a mess of the faith, look where it ultimately led, all manner of corruption took place and eventuallly salvation was bought and sold by papal indulgences.


    All of the “church fathers” were infected with some false doctrine, and most of them were seriously infected. Even the so-called Apostolic Fathers of the second century were teaching the false gospel that baptism, celibacy, and martyrdom provided forgiveness of sin (Howard Vos, Exploring Church History, p. 12). And of the later “fathers”--Clement, Origen, Cyril, Jerome, Ambrose, Augustine, Theodore, and John Chrysostom--the same historian admits: “In their lives and teachings we find the seed plot of almost all that arose later. In germ form appear the dogmas of purgatory, transubstantiation, priestly mediation, baptismal regeneration, and the whole sacramental system” (Vos, p. 25).

    https://www.wayoflife.org/database/c...r_to_rome.html

    Read about who these men truly were and what they believed....it led directly to the dark ages.

    “That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and
    cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive” (Ephesians 4:14).







    Quote Originally Posted by Galatians2-20 View Post
    Here is an article the gives several examples of how leaders in the early Church spoke out against the heresies of the Gnostics in the 2nd & 3rd centuries, proving that it was the Gnostics who first introduced the doctrine of "once saved, always saved" into the Church. This doctrine was later embraced by Augustine, then John Calvin, who passed it along to Reformed Churches only to be embraced later by Baptists.

    Bible Question:

    Did the primitive church preach the doctrine of once saved always saved? My pastor says that this doctrine is heresy and it wasn't preached until after the 1500's during the Reformation. Was this in the Nicean creed?

    Bible Answer:


    The writings of the early church fathers indicate that they did not all agree with the statement “once saved always saved.” Some of the early Christian writers appear to have believed that a person could lose his or her salvation by sinning and others believed that a person could lose his or her salvation if he or she no longer believed in Jesus. Here are a variety of quotes from some very significant early church fathers.

    Justin Martyr – The first quote comes from Justin Martyr (A.D. 100-165).

    But I believe that even those, who have been persuaded . . . to observe the legal dispensation along with their confession of God in Christ, shall probably be saved. And I hold, further, that such as have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back from some cause to the legal dispensation, and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death, shall by no means be saved. Further, I hold that those of the seed of Abraham who live according to the law, and do not believe in this Christ before death, shall likewise not be saved . . . – Justin Martyr, Dialogue Of Justin 47

    At the end of the quote it is clear that Justin believes that anyone who denies Jesus is the Christ will not be saved; that is, he or she will go to hell. At the start of the passage, he is not sure that someone will be saved if he or she believes in Jesus but is disobedient. Justin believes that faith and obedience go together. He agrees with James 2:26 and 1 John 2:4 which say,
    For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. (NASB) James 2:26
    The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him . . . (NASB) 1 John 2:4
    The Bible teaches that someone who claims to be a Christian but does not live like one is a liar. They are not real Christians. Likewise, someone who might live like a Christian but does not believe in Jesus is not saved.

    Shepherd of Hermas – Some have claimed that the writer of the Pastor of Hermas or Shepherd of Hermas (A.D. 155-180) believed that a Christian could lose his or her salvation and quoted the following passage,

    They only who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as to those who keep not His commandments, there is no life in them. Shepherd of Hermas, 2.7 (A.D. 155).

    Another passage seems to say the same thing,

    And he said, “If you do not guard yourself against [anger], you and your house lose all hope of salvation . . . Hermas. Pastor of Hermas. Book 1.4.1.

    But just a few sentences away we read this,

    “Hear now,” said he, “how wicked is the action of anger, and in what way it overthrows the servants of God by its action, and turns them from righteousness. But [anger] does not turn away those who are full of faith, nor does it act on them, for the power of the Lord is with them. Hermas. Shepherd of Hermas. Book 1-2, Commandment Fourth, Chap. 1.

    This passage reveals that the author of the Shepherd of Hermas did not believe that a true Christian could lose his salvation.

    Irenaeus
    – The Christian writer, Irenaeus (A.D. 120-200), appears to believe that Christians are not “once saved always saved” with the following quote,

    Those who do not obey Him . . . have ceased to be His sons. – Irenaeus, Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 4.41.3.

    But several sentences earlier he said this,

    But with respect to obedience and doctrine we are not all the sons of God: those only are so who believe in Him and do His will. And those who do not believe, and do not obey His will, are sons and angels of the devil, because they do the works of the devil. Irenaeus, Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 41, 2.

    What is our conclusion? Irenaeus believed as Justin Martyr did. Faith and obedience go together. One must be connected to the other. Therefore, Irenaeus believed that a person who lives a life of disobedience is not a true Christian, even if he once claimed to be a Christian. He agrees with James 2:14-26.

    Tertullian – Tertullian (A.D. 150-220) makes the following statement which echoes the same message of 1 John 2:19.

    But what if a bishop, if a deacon, if a widow, if a virgin, if a doctor, if even a martyr, have fallen from the rule (of faith), will heresies on that account appear to possess the truth? Do we prove the faith by the persons, or the persons by the faith? No one is wise, no one is faithful, no one excels in dignity, but the Christian; and no one is a Christian but he who perseveres even to the end. Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heretics, Chap 3.

    1 John 2:19 says this,
    They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. (NASB) 1 John 2:19
    Throughout the New Testament the Holy Spirit has stated that a true Christian, one who believes in Jesus, will persevere or continue in the faith until the end. The following quote from Tertullian seems to imply that he believed a Christian could lose his or her salvation by disobedience. If so, we must remember that scripture contains the truth and not Tertullian.
    But the world returned unto sin; in which point baptism would ill be compared to the deluge. And so it is destined to fire; just as the man too is, who after baptism renews his sins: so that this also ought to be accepted as a sign for our admonition. Tertullian, On Repentance, 2.9

    Origen – The writer Origen (A.D. 185-254) said this,

    If there is any other nature which is holy, it possesses this property of being made holy by the reception or inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not having it by nature, but as an accidental quality, for which reason it may be lost, in consequence of being accidental. So also a man may possess an accidental righteousness, from which it is possible for him to fall away. Origen, Origen De Principilis, Book , Chap 8.

    Origen contrasts true righteousness, given by the Holy Spirit, to an “accidental” righteousness. Those who do have the righteousness of God, which is given by faith through Jesus Christ, are truly righteous.
    If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. (NASB) Rom. 8:10

    . . . the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe . . . (NASB) Rom. 3:22
    Origen seems to agree with this statement. Another quote from Origen echoes Christ’s teaching,

    He who has not denied himself, but denied Christ, will experience the saying, “I also will deny him.” – Origen. Gospel of Matthew. Book 12. 24.

    Jesus simply said that another who rejects Him will be rejected.
    But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. (NASB) Matt. 10:33
    Cyprian – The last quote comes from Cyprian,

    Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. Cyprian, Treatises of Cyprian. Treaties 1.6.

    He also echoes 1 John 2:19.
    Conclusion:

    These men wrote from about A.D. 100 – 250. We do not find any statements to the effect that once a Christian is saved, he or she is always saved. But we do find a consistent belief, except for a few instances, that faith and works go together. This is consistent with the teachings of the Bible.

    The earliest statement regarding “once saved always saved” comes from Augustine (A.D. 354-430).

    It was left to Augustine to speak a clear word for perseverance in pre-Reformation times. Starting with predestination, he saw that election to eternal life inevitably involves final perseverance. Since salvation is always God’s gift, he entitled his work on perseverance On the Gift of Perseverance. He denied, however, that the believer can have any assurance of his final salvation. Carl F. Henry. Basic Christian Doctrines. Baker Book House, 1962.

    It is important to note that the doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” did not appear in the literature of the church until the Reformation period. A review of the existing literature from the early church fathers suggests that most of them believed faith and works must both exist for a person to be a true Christian. While no person is perfect, the pattern of life must be present. Only a few seem to believe that a person can lose his or her salvation by disobedience. But it is also possible that they are only observing the biblical truth stated in James 2:17 and 1 John 2:19.
    Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. (NASB) James 2:17
    What is most important is, “Does the Bible teach, ‘Once Saved Always Saved.?'” The opinion of the early church fathers does not constitute truth. The early church fathers were not inspired authors. But Jesus and the apostles were. Jesus did not teach and the Bible does not teach that once a person believes in Jesus Christ he or she is going to heaven regardless of what he or she does in the future. James 2:26 captures the truth that faith and works go together. A true Christian will believe and obey. A true Christian will not leave the faith. Someone who claims to believe and lives like the world or leaves the faith is a liar, and 1 John 2:4 says the truth is not in him or her. However, we must remember that only God knows if one has actually left the faith. We do not see as God sees. The statement “Once Saved Always Saved” is misleading. It should be worded as follows, “Saved Only Once” or “Once Truly Saved Always Saved.” Once God selects people for salvation they have been selected and they will not depart from the faith. Those who have been truly saved will never depart from the faith. The Nicean Creed does not address this subject.

    https://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-q...-always-saved/
    For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    Romans 6:14

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Very much so. I'm so righteous, I can hardly stand it myself. It's hard being me
    UnderGrace likes this.

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by lastofall View Post
    If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. (1 John 2:29)

    Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. (1 John 3:7)

    And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness...but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. (Philippians 3:9)
    Those who are found in Him and have been accounted as righteous through faith practice righteousness BECAUSE they are born of Him and not in order to become born of Him.

    *We see a contrast between children of God and children of the devil in 1 John 3:7-10.

    1 John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UnderGrace View Post
    They say history is written by winners, meaning that somehow these men were able to elevate themselves and leave a written record of their beliefs and that is about all

    Somehow they are so highly regarded as the early church fathers, however it seems to me they were already making a mess of the faith, look where it ultimately led, all manner of corruption took place and eventuallly salvation was bought and sold by papal indulgences.


    All of the “church fathers” were infected with some false doctrine, and most of them were seriously infected. Even the so-called Apostolic Fathers of the second century were teaching the false gospel that baptism, celibacy, and martyrdom provided forgiveness of sin (Howard Vos, Exploring Church History, p. 12). And of the later “fathers”--Clement, Origen, Cyril, Jerome, Ambrose, Augustine, Theodore, and John Chrysostom--the same historian admits: “In their lives and teachings we find the seed plot of almost all that arose later. In germ form appear the dogmas of purgatory, transubstantiation, priestly mediation, baptismal regeneration, and the whole sacramental system” (Vos, p. 25).

    https://www.wayoflife.org/database/c...r_to_rome.html

    Read about who these men truly were and what they believed....it led directly to the dark ages.

    “That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and
    cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive” (Ephesians 4:14).
    I've had Roman Catholics quote the early church fathers to me numerous times in order to try and justify their false doctrines, but I don't buy into their sales pitch.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galatians2-20 View Post
    JoanieMarie, I agree with you 100% that a person can only become righteous IN CHRIST.


    "For He hath made Him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Corinthians 5:21)


    Scripture teaches us, in the book of Isaiah, that man's righteousness apart from God (self righteousness) is as filthy as rags in the eyes of God (64:6) and a stench in the nostrils of God (65:5).


    The only way to for man to become righteous is to receive the righteousness of Christ, which he bestows freely as a gift to those who place their trust in Him.


    "For if by the trespass of the one (Adam), death reigned through the one (Adam), much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in [eternal] life through the One, Jesus Christ." (Romans 5:17)


    Because of Adam’s fall, every person afterward was born into a state of godlessness. Apart from the presence of God, it impossible for man to become righteous. Which is why Christ bore the cross, so that man may be made righteous through fellowship with Christ. Righteousness is not something that we do, it is something that we recieve which is why it is called a gift throughout the word of God.


    "The righteousness of God, which is by faith in Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe." (Romans 3:22)


    Every Christian who understands the Bible should agree with me up to this point. This is where many stop when presenting the Gospel message. However, the Bible does not stop there. Scripture also teaches that it is through fellowship with Christ that believers remain righteous. Why? Because righteousness is a divine quality, one that a person can not possess apart from the presence of God, IN CHRIST.


    “Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.” (Romans 13:14)


    “Righteousness I have put on, and it clotheth me, As a robe and a diadem my justice.” (Job 29:14)


    “...put on the new self, the one created according to God's likeness in righteousness and purity of the truth.” (Ephesians 4:24)


    “...put on the new [spiritual] self who is being continually renewed in true knowledge in the image of Him who created the new self...” (Colossians 3:10)


    “Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness...” (Ephesians 6:13-14)


    "I will greatly rejoice in the Lord. My soul shall be joyful in my God for He hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, He hath covered me with the robe of righteousness." (Isaiah 61:10)


    While righteousness is indeed a free gift, it is a gift that is to be recieved not once, but daily. Righteousness is both attained and maintained through life in the Spirit, walking in the Spirit. Righteousness is every bit as relational in nature as it is positional.


    “The LORD detests the way of the wicked, but he loves those who pursue righteousness.” (Proverbs 5:19)


    “ The one who says he resides in God ought himself to walk just as Jesus walked.” (1 John 2:6)


    The problem that most people have with the biblical perspective that I am presenting is that many today have been to taught to equate obedience, to Christ and his word, as “works” (self effort). However, often times, throughout scripture, when the word righteousness is used, it is also accompanied by an instruction not to engage in unrighteousness. While righteousness may be free gift, one must choose to receive it.


    I asked this question in another thread and I will ask it again here:


    Since when is it considered work not to do something?

    Amazing someone that reads God's Word ... Pass the popcorn please

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderGrace View Post
    They say history is written by winners, meaning that somehow these men were able to elevate themselves and leave a written record of their beliefs and that is about all

    Somehow they are so highly regarded as the early church fathers, however it seems to me they were already making a mess of the faith, look where it ultimately led, all manner of corruption took place and eventuallly salvation was bought and sold by papal indulgences.


    All of the “church fathers” were infected with some false doctrine, and most of them were seriously infected. Even the so-called Apostolic Fathers of the second century were teaching the false gospel that baptism, celibacy, and martyrdom provided forgiveness of sin (Howard Vos, Exploring Church History, p. 12). And of the later “fathers”--Clement, Origen, Cyril, Jerome, Ambrose, Augustine, Theodore, and John Chrysostom--the same historian admits: “In their lives and teachings we find the seed plot of almost all that arose later. In germ form appear the dogmas of purgatory, transubstantiation, priestly mediation, baptismal regeneration, and the whole sacramental system” (Vos, p. 25).

    https://www.wayoflife.org/database/c...r_to_rome.html

    Read about who these men truly were and what they believed....it led directly to the dark ages.

    “That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and
    cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive” (Ephesians 4:14).
    It is truly amazing people make these men and their writings equal with scripture,

    sounds a lot like what Israel did, you would think the gentile church would learn from their mistake, but nope, we did the same thing they did, and try to stand proud like the did not realizing how foolish we really were.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galatians2-20 View Post
    There is nothing "simple" about the doctrine of once saved, always saved. It's advocates rip verses out of context and apply a meaning to them that contradicts other verses.
    so because we disagree with the context and points of a doctrine, this we should do the exact opposite so no one may even be tempted to believe it.

    So let's replace grace with works, replace security in God with insecurity in self, and take the gospel and of grace and replace it with legalism.

    yep, again, he Jews did this when they took Gods commands and added to them, and though it made them more holy.

    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    It is truly amazing people make these men and their writings equal with scripture,

    sounds a lot like what Israel did, you would think the gentile church would learn from their mistake, but nope, we did the same thing they did, and try to stand proud like the did not realizing how foolish we really were.

    Your comment introduces a straw-man argument based on a false assumption. I introduced the writings of the early Church fathers to show how some in the modern Church have re-introduced ideals from Gnostic heretics. I do not equate them with scripture. However, to compare the writings with the works of the early Church leaders with the Talmud (Jewish oral law) is utter nonsense. Such a statement proves that you have never read either in order to make an educated assessment.
    It is the indwelling Spirit of Christ (he who is righteous) in our lives which saves us. It is the indwelling Spirit of Christ (he who is holy) in our lives which also sanctifies us. The only role that we play in either is to fix our gaze upon (trust in) Him and Him (Christ) alone, feasting (abiding) daily on His Presence (In Christ) which is the bread & water of life eternal. #SimpleGospel #UnionWithChrist

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    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I've had Roman Catholics quote the early church fathers to me numerous times in order to try and justify their false doctrines, but I don't buy into their sales pitch.
    So you discount all early Church fathers based on the works of a few? Those who lived 1st and 2nd century had absolutely nothing to do with Catholicism. The ideals that would become Catholicism began to rise in the 3rd century. Most would originate from Augustine. Who, ironically, was the first to introduce the idea of "perseverance of the saints" which would eventually evolve into "once saved, always saved". So, for those who understand Church history, you have actually contradicted yourself.

    Apparently, you folks know very little about Church doctrine in light of Church history.
    It is the indwelling Spirit of Christ (he who is righteous) in our lives which saves us. It is the indwelling Spirit of Christ (he who is holy) in our lives which also sanctifies us. The only role that we play in either is to fix our gaze upon (trust in) Him and Him (Christ) alone, feasting (abiding) daily on His Presence (In Christ) which is the bread & water of life eternal. #SimpleGospel #UnionWithChrist

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderGrace View Post
    They say history is written by winners, meaning that somehow these men were able to elevate themselves and leave a written record of their beliefs and that is about all

    Somehow they are so highly regarded as the early church fathers, however it seems to me they were already making a mess of the faith, look where it ultimately led, all manner of corruption took place and eventuallly salvation was bought and sold by papal indulgences.


    All of the “church fathers” were infected with some false doctrine, and most of them were seriously infected. Even the so-called Apostolic Fathers of the second century were teaching the false gospel that baptism, celibacy, and martyrdom provided forgiveness of sin (Howard Vos, Exploring Church History, p. 12). And of the later “fathers”--Clement, Origen, Cyril, Jerome, Ambrose, Augustine, Theodore, and John Chrysostom--the same historian admits: “In their lives and teachings we find the seed plot of almost all that arose later. In germ form appear the dogmas of purgatory, transubstantiation, priestly mediation, baptismal regeneration, and the whole sacramental system” (Vos, p. 25).

    https://www.wayoflife.org/database/c...r_to_rome.html

    Read about who these men truly were and what they believed....it led directly to the dark ages.

    “That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and
    cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive” (Ephesians 4:14).

    So you dismiss the works of every early Church father based on the opinions of a few? Several of those quoted in my article predated the push toward Catholicism for 200 years. They had absolutely nothing to do with Catholicism what so ever. I introduced the works of the early Church fathers to give an example of what the Gnostics were teaching.

    If you have ever read the works of the Gnostics, you would understand why they were widely regarded as heretics then as well as now. It was they who wrote the false Gospels of Judas, Thomas, and Mary. The fact that you would defend the Gnostics shows how little that you truly know.
    It is the indwelling Spirit of Christ (he who is righteous) in our lives which saves us. It is the indwelling Spirit of Christ (he who is holy) in our lives which also sanctifies us. The only role that we play in either is to fix our gaze upon (trust in) Him and Him (Christ) alone, feasting (abiding) daily on His Presence (In Christ) which is the bread & water of life eternal. #SimpleGospel #UnionWithChrist

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galatians2-20 View Post

    Your comment introduces a straw-man argument based on a false assumption. I introduced the writings of the early Church fathers to show how some in the modern Church have re-introduced ideals from Gnostic heretics. I do not equate them with scripture. However, to compare the writings with the works of the early Church leaders with the Talmud (Jewish oral law) is utter nonsense. Such a statement proves that you have never read either in order to make an educated assessment.

    Again - this is just more nonsense.


    I said this a few times before and I will say it again..the natural mind of man cannot see the realities of the new creation in Christ. It will constantly be trying to refute the new inner man created in righteousness and holiness and it will be complete foolishness to it and "appear" to be gnostic. This is where they come up with having to "maintain" their salvation for going to be with the Lord.

    One of the reasons gnostics were birthed is because of the truth the apostles were talking about in the new birth in Christ - the new man circumcised with the hand of God in separating the flesh from the inner man in Christ...aka the circumcision of Christ. The natural mind of man took over and created their own "reality" - apart from Christ.

    This isn't even remotely close to true believers in Christ. Everything to do with the new creation is because we are "in Christ"..Paul talked about the true believer being in Christ in some form 140X times in his letters.

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    You are continuing to slander others in the body of Christ that believe in Christ's work in saving us and that we are safe in Him.

    You are effectively calling the Lord Jesus Christ a liar because He said that the Holy Spirit will be in us forever. John 14:16


    It didn't take long for legalism and works for salvation to come into the church and pervert the gospel - just like all works-based belief systems are doing.

    It happened right in front of John and James in Jerusalem and in Paul's Galatia within a year of him preaching the true gospel of the grace of God in Christ.

    Acts 21:20 (NASB)
    20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;


    Galatians 3:1-3 (NASB)
    1
    You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

    2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

    3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

    Galatians 1:6-7 (NASB)
    6

    I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

    7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

    (PS. I went to Bible school too - that is meaningless within itself and dose not mean we are walking in truth - it means we believe what we were taught in that bible school...)
    Last edited by Grace777x70; July 7th, 2017 at 12:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galatians2-20 View Post

    Your comment introduces a straw-man argument based on a false assumption. I introduced the writings of the early Church fathers to show how some in the modern Church have re-introduced ideals from Gnostic heretics. I do not equate them with scripture. However, to compare the writings with the works of the early Church leaders with the Talmud (Jewish oral law) is utter nonsense. Such a statement proves that you have never read either in order to make an educated assessment.

    No, it is the same.


    You assume these so called church fathers had it right, That is not an assumption we should base our eternity on.

    Your gnostic argument is faulty, and it has lead you to reject security in Christ, and follow the words of men.

    Stick to the bible, it will help you.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galatians2-20 View Post
    So you discount all early Church fathers based on the works of a few? Those who lived 1st and 2nd century had absolutely nothing to do with Catholicism. The ideals that would become Catholicism began to rise in the 3rd century. Most would originate from Augustine. Who, ironically, was the first to introduce the idea of "perseverance of the saints" which would eventually evolve into "once saved, always saved". So, for those who understand Church history, you have actually contradicted yourself.

    Apparently, you folks know very little about Church doctrine in light of Church history.
    We have the real church history, It starts with a book called genesis, and ends with a book called revelation.

    Anything else is just mans words, which are not inspired.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    no im not but Jesus is my righteousness i trust in Him...................

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