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Thread: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

    Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.
    Again I ask the question, since when is it considered work NOT to do something (commit acts of unrighteousness)?
    It is the indwelling Spirit of Christ (he who is righteous) in our lives which saves us. It is the indwelling Spirit of Christ (he who is holy) in our lives which also sanctifies us. The only role that we play in either is to fix our gaze upon (trust in) Him and Him (Christ) alone, feasting (abiding) daily on His Presence (In Christ) which is the bread & water of life eternal. #SimpleGospel #UnionWithChrist

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post

    No, it is the same.


    You assume these so called church fathers had it right, That is not an assumption we should base our eternity on.

    Your gnostic argument is faulty, and it has lead you to reject security in Christ, and follow the words of men.

    Stick to the bible, it will help you.

    I believe in eternal security. However, no where in the Bible does it teach that eternal security is unconditional. Just as we are saved by faith in Christ, so is our salvation secure by faith in Christ. Christ taught that those who abide in Him are his and those who commit acts of unrighteousness are not His. Abstaining from works of unrighteousness is an act of faith.

    Your doctrine is dangerous. It is the religious equivalent of telling someone that they won't perish if they were to jump off of a high bridge onto a bed of spikes.

    I ask yet again, since when is it considered "works" not to do something (works of unrighteousness)?
    Last edited by Galatians2-20; July 7th, 2017 at 03:54 PM.
    It is the indwelling Spirit of Christ (he who is righteous) in our lives which saves us. It is the indwelling Spirit of Christ (he who is holy) in our lives which also sanctifies us. The only role that we play in either is to fix our gaze upon (trust in) Him and Him (Christ) alone, feasting (abiding) daily on His Presence (In Christ) which is the bread & water of life eternal. #SimpleGospel #UnionWithChrist

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Faith itself is a work.

    Faith "works" by love and is thus the active principle by which the genuine Christian produces deeds of righteousness.

    Any individual producing deeds of unrighteousness is an individual lacking in genuine faith.

    Genuine faith is inclusive of a heart yielded to godly influence, thus the enpowerment of grace, God's divine influence, brings forth good fruit. It is in this way that grace reigns through righteousness.

    This is all mostly rejected today by people who profess salvation in Jesus Christ, for they have rejected the manifest abundance and power of abiding in the love of God and exchanged it for a legal accounting in which they think they are justified whilst they still sin.
    willybob likes this.

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skinski7 View Post
    Faith itself is a work.
    The Bible contrasts faith with works:

    Eph 2:
    8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    Faith "works" by love and is thus the active principle by which the genuine Christian produces deeds of righteousness.
    "Deeds of righteousness" are wonderful, and every Christian should seek to do them, but they are not what saves you. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ (Rom 10:9; Acts 16:30-31; Eph 1:13-14).

    Any individual producing deeds of unrighteousness is an individual lacking in genuine faith.
    So did Peter lack genuine faith when he committed hypocrisy (Gal 2:11ff)? Do you believe that when Peter committed hypocrisy that he lost his salvation but then got saved again when he repented?

    Did Paul lack genuine faith when he went to Jerusalem directly against the will of God (Acts 20:22ff)?

    Genuine faith is inclusive of a heart yielded to godly influence, thus the enpowerment of grace, God's divine influence, brings forth good fruit. It is in this way that grace reigns through righteousness.

    This is all mostly rejected today by people who profess salvation in Jesus Christ, for they have rejected the manifest abundance and power of abiding in the love of God and exchanged it for a legal accounting in which they think they are justified whilst they still sin.
    All men sin, including saved Christians. Anyone who thinks he doesn't is deceived (1 John 1:8, 10).

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galatians2-20 View Post
    So you discount all early Church fathers based on the works of a few? Those who lived 1st and 2nd century had absolutely nothing to do with Catholicism. The ideals that would become Catholicism began to rise in the 3rd century. Most would originate from Augustine. Who, ironically, was the first to introduce the idea of "perseverance of the saints" which would eventually evolve into "once saved, always saved". So, for those who understand Church history, you have actually contradicted yourself.

    Apparently, you folks know very little about Church doctrine in light of Church history.
    Were the writings of the early church fathers inspired by God? Were their writings infallible? I rest my case. You can rely on fallible writings by fallible men to form your doctrine if you wish. I will rely solely on GOD'S WORD.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galatians2-20 View Post
    Again I ask the question, since when is it considered work NOT to do something (commit acts of unrighteousness)?
    Your question makes no sense.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by shrume View Post
    The Bible contrasts faith with works:

    Eph 2:
    8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.


    "Deeds of righteousness" are wonderful, and every Christian should seek to do them, but they are not what saves you. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ (Rom 10:9; Acts 16:30-31; Eph 1:13-14).


    So did Peter lack genuine faith when he committed hypocrisy (Gal 2:11ff)? Do you believe that when Peter committed hypocrisy that he lost his salvation but then got saved again when he repented?

    Did Paul lack genuine faith when he went to Jerusalem directly against the will of God (Acts 20:22ff)?


    All men sin, including saved Christians. Anyone who thinks he doesn't is deceived (1 John 1:8, 10).

    Shrume,

    Thank you for your response.


    Let us reason together being honest in heart and mind.

    The Apostle Paul speaks of faith being a work...

    1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

    The Apostle Paul also refers to faith as being a work with power...

    2Th_1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:


    Now if we keep that sentiment in mind and refer to the words of James...

    Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    Clearly "faith" is a working principle or active principle. Faith is not a passive principle, nor is it mere mental assent.

    Furthermore the Apostle Paul describes faith as "working by love" and contrasts it against the "outward rite and ritual" of physical circumcision.

    Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
    Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
    Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

    Now let's look at the statement "saved by grace through faith."

    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    First of all, what are Christians "saved" from? Well in Matthew 1:21 we read...

    Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    Jesus shall save His people from their sins.

    Jesus also made the statement...

    Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
    Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
    Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

    1. Those who commit sin are the servants of sin.
    2. Jesus sets people free indeed from committing and thus serving sin.

    The Apostle Paul taught the same thing...

    Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    1. Obedience from the heart makes one free from sin.
    2. Being set free from sin one becomes a servant of righteousness.

    Paul taught...

    Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    Obviously "faith" must logically be inclusive of "obedience unto righteousness." No wonder Paul would refer to the obedience of faith...

    Rom_16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

    So back to "saved by grace THROUGH faith."

    Let's look at grace...

    charis
    From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

    Here we see that part of the definition of "grace" is the divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in the life. This concept is also alluded to by Paul in his letter to Titus...

    Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
    Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

    Here Paul speaks of "grace that brings salvation" as teaching us how to conduct ourselves in all godly behaviour, truly the divine influence upon the heart.

    Saved by grace THROUGH faith is speaking of a DYNAMIC of YIELDING TO GOD the result of which is SALVATION FROM SERVING SIN. It is not speaking of "trusting in a provision" by which an individual is "declared righteous" as is commonly taught.

    When Paul says "not of works" the context is "works done apart from God" or "works done apart from God's divine influence." No human being can be saved from sin apart from yielding their heart to God's divine influence and abiding in it, hence Christians are compelled to KEEP THEMSELVES in the love of God (Jude 1:21).

    What was the "boast of works"?

    Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

    The Jew boasted in the law, yet the law cannot save (see Rom 7). It is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which saves (Rom 8:2), the Spirit of grace (Zec 12:10, Heb 10:29). To rest in a mere the mere OUTWARD SERVICE of rules and regulations is the absolute antithesis of "saved by grace THROUGH faith" which is why Paul opposes it so vehemently.

    Paul understood the dynamic of salvation renovates completely the character of those whom yield themselves to God's influence through faith. Paul understood how ALL THINGS become new as old things have passed away (2Cor 5:17).


    Now regarding Peter's offense...

    Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
    Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

    That action by Peter was not an act of premeditated willful sin. Sure he missed the mark and was acting carnal and needed to be corrected for he was not walking according to the Spirit as he ought to have been.

    The notion of "losing salvation" is a concept rooted in the idea of salvation being a "position" as opposed to being a literal manifest state of abiding in the love of God, a state of union with God through the Spirit. It is really a term of no meaning only given a "sense of meaning" as it is used within the false paradigm of false Christianity.

    One can certainly depart from "keeping themselves in the love of God" and thus not be in a "saved state" which is why we must examine ourselves to see if we are really in the faith. One can depart the faith without realising it through complacency and self dependency, negating doing everything through God. Thus we have to be careful if so we be genuinely in the faith in the first place.

    So Peter erred and was corrected, an event through which he surely learned in receiving Paul's rebuke. Yet that action by Peter was very different to him going out and committing sins unto death, ie...

    Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    There is no correction for that type of thing. All filthiness and superfulty of naughtiness must be forsaken before one can recieve the implanted word which saves the soul (Jam 1:21).

    As for 1Joh 1:8-9, John is referring too initial repentance, not an ongoing siin/repent cycle of perpetual iniquity in the life of a Christian. John is simply elaborating on how one comes into the faith with a "true heart" (Heb 10:22) in coming clean with God in repentance. If we say we have no sin (to our account) then we have not approached God in truthfulness when we come to Him to abide in the light.

    The children of God are MANIFEST in that they do not produce the fruit of sin in their life, it is the children of the devil who sin because we are slaves to whom we obey.

    Be well.

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galatians2-20 View Post

    I believe in eternal security. However, no where in the Bible does it teach that eternal security is unconditional. Just as we are saved by faith in Christ, so is our salvation secure by faith in Christ. Christ taught that those who abide in Him are his and those who commit acts of unrighteousness are not His. Abstaining from works of unrighteousness is an act of faith.

    Your doctrine is dangerous. It is the religious equivalent of telling someone that they won't perish if they were to jump off of a high bridge onto a bed of spikes.

    I ask yet again, since when is it considered "works" not to do something (works of unrighteousness)?
    If salvation is conditional,

    you have no security. Let alone eternal security
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull View Post
    If salvation is conditional,

    you have no security. Let alone eternal security
    Security exists in abiding in the love of God.

    Examine the following passage...

    1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
    1Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
    1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

    John connects "boldness in the day of judgment" to being "as He is, so are we in this world."

    John is referring to a manifest reality in the same context as...

    1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    One cannot be "abiding in Jesus" and at the same time "committing sin."

    The children of God will naturally produce the fruit of righteousness in their lives.

    The false Church system has perverted this understanding by preaching a POSITIONAL salvation wherein ongoing service of sin is permissible. The error is rooted in the substitution theology where the Cross is twisted into a "legal swap."

    There can be no union nor reconciliation with God when an individual is still in the service of sin. The bondage MUST be broken through a genuine repentance experience BEFORE any quickening by the Spirit can occur.

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skinski7 View Post
    Security exists in abiding in the love of God.

    Examine the following passage...

    1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
    1Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
    1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

    John connects "boldness in the day of judgment" to being "as He is, so are we in this world."

    John is referring to a manifest reality in the same context as...

    1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    One cannot be "abiding in Jesus" and at the same time "committing sin."

    The children of God will naturally produce the fruit of righteousness in their lives.

    The false Church system has perverted this understanding by preaching a POSITIONAL salvation wherein ongoing service of sin is permissible. The error is rooted in the substitution theology where the Cross is twisted into a "legal swap."

    There can be no union nor reconciliation with God when an individual is still in the service of sin. The bondage MUST be broken through a genuine repentance experience BEFORE any quickening by the Spirit can occur.

    Like i said, if you have conditional security you have no security,

    what you you propose is security in your ability, not on God.
    Eternally Grateful for the grace God has shown a wretched soul such as myself.

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galatians2-20 View Post
    Not once have I stated that believers need to be saved every day. That is an accusation based on your own false assumptions.

    Faith places us in Christ. Faith in Christ's word, which includes abstaining from works of unrighteousness, keeps us there. How can you accuse me of preaching a works-based belief system when, in fact, I am stating the complete opposite? Again I ask you, SINCE WHEN IS IT A WORK NOT TO DO SOMETHING?

    As for my statement about Joseph Prince's doctrine, I have actually attended Bible college. I have studied comparative theology in light of Church of history with emphasis on the great Revivalists and the missions movement. Joseph Prince does not teach anything new. He simply borrows heavily from the "exchanged life" doctrine of the Keswick missions movement, as taught by the Asian Keswick teacher, Watchman Nee, then tries to insert "once saved, always saved" into the equation. Prince is not the first to do this Lewis Sperry Chafer did similarly in the early 20th century and even founded a bible college to promote his ideals. Perhaps you have heard of it: the Dallas Theological Seminary. How do I know this? Because I, too, embrace Keswick theology. Everything that I have shared with you are principles of the original "exchanged life" teaching. We exchanged our unrighteousness for the righteousness of Christ....

    Save your criticisms. Until you can factually prove me wrong, you are guilty of bearing false witness.


    I answered your question Galatians2 but now I wonder it you read any of my posts. We are told "not" to "work" a lot in the Bible. And we are also told "not" to look to our own righteousness as well. It all amounts to look (away) to Jesus. Even the Holy Spirit continually points to Jesus., and HE is the Holy Spirit.
    (!!!!!!)

    If the Holy Spirit points to Jesus all the time, don't you think there is something to this "looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith" business?


    We are to be walking in the day to day of our Christian lives just as we were saved; by grace through faith. To try to live any other way is living by our own smarts and works and worthiness.

    in 1998 I used to listen to a preacher and his wife who were part of the exchanged life ministry. Bill and Annabelle Gillham. Even though I was still a major fundamental Baptist at the time I was able to agree with these Christians. They didn't speak in tongues or believe in the gifts for today and for that reason I was not scared away at the time. It really seems to me that the more Christians label one another the less they will be able to hear from one another.

    Pastor Prince is one of my favorite grace preachers because he teaches the things I've been learning in the Bible over the last many years. I've also been learning from him many things I didn't consider before. All tried and true Bible doctrines I've known about and now got the rest of the answers to. No one can convince anyone of truth except the Holy Spirit. That was part of how this thread was started. Our human brains will not accept anything supernatural unless the Holy Spirit breaks down the barriers. This is not monumental for Him to do but it is for us. We can't do it.

    While thinking about that on the way to work tonight the verse about His strength being made perfect in our weakness was like fresh cool water flowing in. Then the verse about His grace is sufficient also came along side and I'm again in awe of how the Holy Spirit takes time with each of us as if we are IMPORTANT. Maybe we don't always feel important to ourselves and in this world but for reasons that are tied up in the truth of "grace" we are very important to Him. So much so He tells us to look to Him to be the Author and Finisher of our faith.

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    Default Re: Are you RIGHTEOUS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galatians2-20 View Post
    JoanieMarie, I agree with you 100% that a person can only become righteous IN CHRIST.


    "For He hath made Him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Corinthians 5:21)


    Scripture teaches us, in the book of Isaiah, that man's righteousness apart from God (self righteousness) is as filthy as rags in the eyes of God (64:6) and a stench in the nostrils of God (65:5).


    The only way to for man to become righteous is to receive the righteousness of Christ, which he bestows freely as a gift to those who place their trust in Him.


    "For if by the trespass of the one (Adam), death reigned through the one (Adam), much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in [eternal] life through the One, Jesus Christ." (Romans 5:17)


    Because of Adam’s fall, every person afterward was born into a state of godlessness. Apart from the presence of God, it impossible for man to become righteous. Which is why Christ bore the cross, so that man may be made righteous through fellowship with Christ. Righteousness is not something that we do, it is something that we recieve which is why it is called a gift throughout the word of God.


    "The righteousness of God, which is by faith in Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe." (Romans 3:22)


    Every Christian who understands the Bible should agree with me up to this point. This is where many stop when presenting the Gospel message. However, the Bible does not stop there. Scripture also teaches that it is through fellowship with Christ that believers remain righteous. Why? Because righteousness is a divine quality, one that a person can not possess apart from the presence of God, IN CHRIST.


    “Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.” (Romans 13:14)


    “Righteousness I have put on, and it clotheth me, As a robe and a diadem my justice.” (Job 29:14)


    “...put on the new self, the one created according to God's likeness in righteousness and purity of the truth.” (Ephesians 4:24)


    “...put on the new [spiritual] self who is being continually renewed in true knowledge in the image of Him who created the new self...” (Colossians 3:10)


    “Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness...” (Ephesians 6:13-14)


    "I will greatly rejoice in the Lord. My soul shall be joyful in my God for He hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, He hath covered me with the robe of righteousness." (Isaiah 61:10)


    While righteousness is indeed a free gift, it is a gift that is to be recieved not once, but daily. Righteousness is both attained and maintained through life in the Spirit, walking in the Spirit. Righteousness is every bit as relational in nature as it is positional.


    “The LORD detests the way of the wicked, but he loves those who pursue righteousness.” (Proverbs 5:19)


    “ The one who says he resides in God ought himself to walk just as Jesus walked.” (1 John 2:6)


    The problem that most people have with the biblical perspective that I am presenting is that many today have been to taught to equate obedience, to Christ and his word, as “works” (self effort). However, often times, throughout scripture, when the word righteousness is used, it is also accompanied by an instruction not to engage in unrighteousness. While righteousness may be free gift, one must choose to receive it.


    I asked this question in another thread and I will ask it again here:


    Since when is it considered work not to do something?
    The believers here are Gnostic in their faith, once righteous always righteous without
    conditions.

    I think you have miss-understood prince and also been lumped into the workers of salvation
    camp by the apostates, lol. They have no real discernment just slander, which testifies to their
    true spiritual state. What is amazing is the numbers who have fallen for this lie, sinning with
    no resolution or sorrow, but rather the expectation of acceptance. Doubly dumb if you ask me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterJens View Post
    The believers here are Gnostic in their faith, once righteous always righteous without
    conditions.

    I think you have miss-understood prince and also been lumped into the workers of salvation
    camp by the apostates, lol. They have no real discernment just slander, which testifies to their
    true spiritual state. What is amazing is the numbers who have fallen for this lie, sinning with
    no resolution or sorrow, but rather the expectation of acceptance. Doubly dumb if you ask me.



    I'm just so stunned Peter that you can still., after all this time on these forums say those of us who believe in the security of the believer are advocating - not only in words written here but in our own lives to "sin with no resolution or sorrow"

    A Gnostic is someone who doesn't believe in the existence of sin in a material world because they believe they are not material girls.... (just a joke) but seriously., they believe they are not human but spirit totally ignoring the flesh factor. So they denied they sin.
    Last edited by joaniemarie; July 8th, 2017 at 06:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joaniemarie View Post

    I'm just so stunned Peter that you can still., after all this time on these forums say those of us who believe in the security of the believer are advocating - not only in words written here but in our own lives to "sin with no resolution or sorrow"
    And that is why the sky is still blue....


    This is also a consideration when interacting with some on line and encountering the below type of behavior.

    What happens in some people's minds is this:

    Someone makes the statement:

    "What a beautiful blue sky the Lord gave us today."

    Someone else responds back to the above statement:

    "What? The sky is not green- everyone knows that the sky is blue - you are lawless and an enemy of Christ, a heretic and false teacher, satanic, delusional".

    When people have this kind of a mindset - it is impossible to have any kind of a rational discussion with them as they continually "see" something else than what is actually said. They then proceed to talk as if this "made-up thought" is real.

    And sometimes we can just agree to disagree too but to deliberately mis-represent what is really being said is deceitful and with these types I have no interaction with until I see that they are at the very least being honest in their discussions and not being abusive and insulting others.

    As the saying goes - There is something wrong in Denmark and is most likely just a waste of time to interact with such a mindset as no good can come out of it until repentance is granted by the Lord.

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    I still find it so hard to believe all the unbelief that is in the so-called believers in Christ concerning the gift of righteousness and that they continually deny the work of Christ. It just amazes me. No wonder the Lord said "Will I find faith on the earth when I return?".

    Looks like it is time for "scripture" again in the area of righteousness. Why do people fight so much against the work of Christ and instead live by their own humanistic thoughts? Why don't we believe in Christ? Why are we continually denying Him?

    I can give you guys what the scriptures say about righteousness and believers that are "in Christ" now. Everyone can believe what they want too
    .

    The understanding of the new creation in Christ and the new identity of the believer is paramount to living the true Christian life.


    Here it says our spirit ( the inner person that is a new creation in Christ ) is alive because of righteousness that it is it.

    Romans 8:10 (NASB)
    10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin,yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
    Here righteousness is a gift - you don't earn it.

    Romans 5:17 (KJV)
    17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

    We have grace reigning in our lives because of righteousness in us.

    Romans 5:21 (KJV)
    21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Here righteousness comes by faith.

    Romans 9:30 (KJV)
    30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

    Here when we believe - we are righteousness.

    Romans 10:10 (KJV)
    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    We are in the kingdom of God.

    Romans 14:17 (KJV)
    17 For the kingdom of God ( Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within you..He might know a thing or two ) is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    Here it says that God made us righteousness in Christ.

    1 Corinthians 1:30 (KJV)
    30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

    This says we have become the righteousness of Christ ( this is called a dependent clause in the greek - it is determined as fulfilled because Christ became sin )

    2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
    21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Believers are called righteousness.


    2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
    14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


    Here it is saying that "righteousness comes by Christ".

    Galatians 2:21 (NASB)
    21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

    Here we have the breastplate of righteousness - which is the armor of God that we are to be strong in.

    Ephesians 6:14 (KJV)
    14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, andhaving on the breastplate of righteousness;

    This talks about the new man in Christ - the new creation.

    Ephesians 4:24 (NASB)
    24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

    Ok..that's enough..there are tons more....

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    Quote Originally Posted by joaniemarie View Post

    I'm just so stunned Peter that you can still., after all this time on these forums say those of us who believe in the security of the believer are advocating - not only in words written here but in our own lives to "sin with no resolution or sorrow"
    I'm not stunned anymore but numb to these types of straw man arguments. It's no wonder that non-Christians view professing Christians as judgmental, means spirited and self righteous.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    We that are in Christ have the Lord's righteousness now in our inner man that is in Christ.

    Isaiah 45:24-25 (NASB)
    24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.

    25 "In the LORD all the offspring of Israel Will be justified and will glory."


    Here is one more from the OT - Isaiah 54: 17 of the Lord telling what the believer would have because of what Christ did in Isaiah 53 when He died on the cross to take away our sin and make us righteous in Him.

    Isaiah 54:17

    17 "No weapon that is formed against you will prosper; And every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, And their righteousness is from Me," declares the LORD.

    Folks we have a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ!

    Ephesians 3:8 (NASB)
    8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinski7 View Post
    Shrume,

    Thank you for your response.
    You're welcome.

    Let us reason together being honest in heart and mind.
    Lets not forget open to the truth.

    The Apostle Paul speaks of faith being a work...

    1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

    The Apostle Paul also refers to faith as being a work with power...

    2Th_1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
    As I explained above, faith is not a work. In Eph 2:8-9 Paul CONTRASTS works and faith. When Paul says "work of faith", he is not saying that faith is a work, but that work results from faith. It is a genitive of origin, and not genitive of apposition (where both mean the same thing.) Paul is not saying that faith is work, but that works result from faith.

    Now if we keep that sentiment in mind and refer to the words of James...

    Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    Clearly "faith" is a working principle or active principle. Faith is not a passive principle, nor is it mere mental assent.
    Faith is simply "trust".

    Furthermore the Apostle Paul describes faith as "working by love" and contrasts it against the "outward rite and ritual" of physical circumcision.

    Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
    Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
    Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

    Now let's look at the statement "saved by grace through faith."

    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    First of all, what are Christians "saved" from?
    Permanent death.

    Well in Matthew 1:21 we read...

    Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    Jesus shall save His people from their sins.
    It is not saying that people will cease sinning (in this life).

    Jesus also made the statement...

    Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
    Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
    Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

    1. Those who commit sin are the servants of sin.
    2. Jesus sets people free indeed from committing and thus serving sin.
    "Commit sin" refers to an ongoing action. People who make a practice of sinning are servants of sin.

    The Apostle Paul taught the same thing...

    Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

    1. Obedience from the heart makes one free from sin.
    2. Being set free from sin one becomes a servant of righteousness.
    Being free from sin does not mean that Christians will not sin. All men sin, including Christians, because of "the sin that dwells in us" (Rom 7:17, 20).

    Paul taught...

    Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    Obviously "faith" must logically be inclusive of "obedience unto righteousness." No wonder Paul would refer to the obedience of faith...

    Rom_16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    It is obvious that God does not want us to sin, and that we should make every effort not to sin. But every single person on the planet falls short.

    So back to "saved by grace THROUGH faith."

    Let's look at grace...

    charis
    From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

    Here we see that part of the definition of "grace" is the divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in the life. This concept is also alluded to by Paul in his letter to Titus...

    Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
    Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

    Here Paul speaks of "grace that brings salvation" as teaching us how to conduct ourselves in all godly behaviour, truly the divine influence upon the heart.

    Saved by grace THROUGH faith is speaking of a DYNAMIC of YIELDING TO GOD the result of which is SALVATION FROM SERVING SIN.
    The Bible is loaded with instruction on how Christians should live. Nobody is denying that. But every single one of us falls short. We are not saved by not sinning, and we cannot become unsaved by sinning.

    It is not speaking of "trusting in a provision" by which an individual is "declared righteous" as is commonly taught.
    This is probably our fundamental difference. I believe in the Christian new birth, that when a person confesses Jesus Christ as Lord and believes in his heart that God raised him from the dead, that person shall be saved (Rom 10:9). When a person hears the gospel, and believes it, that person is sealed with the gift of holy spirit, which is the guarantee of salvation (Eph 1:13-14).

    When Paul says "not of works" the context is "works done apart from God" or "works done apart from God's divine influence." No human being can be saved from sin apart from yielding their heart to God's divine influence and abiding in it, hence Christians are compelled to KEEP THEMSELVES in the love of God (Jude 1:21).

    What was the "boast of works"?

    Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

    The Jew boasted in the law, yet the law cannot save (see Rom 7). It is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which saves (Rom 8:2), the Spirit of grace (Zec 12:10, Heb 10:29). To rest in a mere the mere OUTWARD SERVICE of rules and regulations is the absolute antithesis of "saved by grace THROUGH faith" which is why Paul opposes it so vehemently.
    I do not believe you are correctly understand works. Works is anything people do, or don't do. Christians are not saved by works, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

    Paul understood the dynamic of salvation renovates completely the character of those whom yield themselves to God's influence through faith. Paul understood how ALL THINGS become new as old things have passed away (2Cor 5:17).
    Becoming saved does not automatically alter a person's character. People must work at it. They must put off the old man and put on the new.

    But a Christian's salvation is never in jeopardy. The Christian new birth is "incorruptible seed" (1 Pet 1:23). We are children of God by birth.

    Now regarding Peter's offense...

    Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
    Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

    That action by Peter was not an act of premeditated willful sin. Sure he missed the mark and was acting carnal and needed to be corrected for he was not walking according to the Spirit as he ought to have been.
    Bottom line: Peter sinned in committing hypocrisy.

    The notion of "losing salvation" is a concept rooted in the idea of salvation being a "position" as opposed to being a literal manifest state of abiding in the love of God, a state of union with God through the Spirit. It is really a term of no meaning only given a "sense of meaning" as it is used within the false paradigm of false Christianity.
    Again, this is probably our fundamental difference. You believe a person must "be good" in order to be saved. I believe that when a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, that person becomes literally born of God, a child of God.

    One can certainly depart from "keeping themselves in the love of God" and thus not be in a "saved state" which is why we must examine ourselves to see if we are really in the faith. One can depart the faith without realising it through complacency and self dependency, negating doing everything through God. Thus we have to be careful if so we be genuinely in the faith in the first place.
    Again, you are not understanding the Christian new birth. You want people to work for their salvation.

    So Peter erred and was corrected, an event through which he surely learned in receiving Paul's rebuke. Yet that action by Peter was very different to him going out and committing sins unto death, ie...

    Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
    So hypocrisy is a "minor" sin that God winks at?

    There is no correction for that type of thing. All filthiness and superfulty of naughtiness must be forsaken before one can recieve the implanted word which saves the soul (Jam 1:21).
    James 1:21 does not say what you think it does. You're saying people must stop sinning before they can receive the Word. That's not true.

    As for 1Joh 1:8-9, John is referring too initial repentance, not an ongoing siin/repent cycle of perpetual iniquity in the life of a Christian. John is simply elaborating on how one comes into the faith with a "true heart" (Heb 10:22) in coming clean with God in repentance. If we say we have no sin (to our account) then we have not approached God in truthfulness when we come to Him to abide in the light.
    I have heard this explanation before by others who think they don't sin. There is nothing to suggest that it's referring to "initial repentance" only.

    The children of God are MANIFEST in that they do not produce the fruit of sin in their life, it is the children of the devil who sin because we are slaves to whom we obey.

    Be well.
    It is clear that the Bible states in many places, over and over, that believers are not to sin. God does not want us to sin, and Christians should make every effort not to sin. But every single Christian on the planet DOES sin, some willful and some in ignorance. Christians who think they do not sin are deceiving themselves, and the truth is not in them (1 John 1:8).

    God made GETTING saved easy. Jesus Christ did all the hard work, and we owe everything to him. God requires about the least thing He could require in order for a person to become saved: faith in Jesus Christ.

    Please understand that I am not condoning sin in any way, nor am I stating that there are not consequences to sin. There are sometimes immediate consequences, and there will certainly be future consequences. We will ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ and give account of the things we did, of how we lived our lives. We will be repaid for the things we did, whether good or bad. Faithful Christians will be richly rewarded, unfaithful Christians may get no rewards at all. But EVERY Christian shall be saved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joaniemarie View Post
    Not so long ago I was first introduced to what that means even though I've been a believer since 1982. It's being IN Christ having Jesus be "our Person" standing in "for us". After that, it's a daily journey about seeing just how much Jesus actually stands in for us. Many Christians are like I was and still proceeded a head in life in and about "self"

    When we were not saved., Adam was our stand-in guy. We went before God in Adam and were not even in God's beloved family. So all our righteousness's were as filthy rags. We didn't even do anything but be born and live and become aware of God. We didn't do any good things or bad things we were just in Adam and outside of Christ. So when we heard the Gospel of our salvation that Jesus went on the cross on our behalf and died shedding His blood we learned He paid for all our sins making us totally worthy to go before the Father and to be recipients of His grace and truth forever after.

    I was reading yet again of how majorly important the knowledge of being righteous IN Christ is. Actually I read it daily and because it is so shockingly unearthly I often forget it in my human self if I don't read it daily and allow the Holy Spirit to minister to my spirit that I am a son of God. But the Bible says to be aware of Christ's obedience at the cross. Most of us are living lives of being aware of our own obedience.

    We have been taught to look at 'our' obedience and it has become a religious past time. Actually it is fought about among people who are Christians every day. I see it on these forums on CC all the time and actually whenever I come here the forums are slathered with believers who fight to look at their own righteousness and want others to look at their own righteousness. And even believe it's unholy to look to Christ's obedience and not our own as our pass port to God's hand in everything we are and do in our lives here while on earth.

    In reading yesterdays devotional it reminded me yet again and I neeed to be reminded again and again because in my humaness I am distorted and negative. The Bible says in 2 Corinthians 10:5

    Casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.

    That verse does not mean as most of us have been taught from day one in our Christian lives to cast down arguments and evil things by learning to think like Jesus. No., that comes later. What that verse does mean is when we fail., when life is fearful and when things in this world become and are overwhelming bigger than our ability to fix in all areas of our lives personally., corporately and universally., the answer is to bring our thoughts into captivity and think instead about the obedience of Christ. Romans 5:19 says;

    For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

    Many of us continue to be mislead into thinking it's by our obedience we have been made righteous. I see the devil do this all the time with people of faith. he wants us to look at ourselves and then he can freely condemn us because who knows better than us how loathsome we really are? Yet., because we are not IN Christ and 100% righteous and 100% IN the family now we are no longer our standard. Adam is no longer our standard bearer. Jesus is. There is no condemnation to those who are IN Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1-2 Because the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

    This truth will free the persons who take it to live a life of faith. And in that we will bear a lot of fruit because it's the fruit of the Spirit not the fruit of the flesh. In living by the Spirit we will be walking testimonies of what Jesus has done in our lives and the good works come as an effect of our right standing IN Christ. Not our right standing in ourselves.

    I hope to challenge many here in the Bible forum to consider this and see how different your Christian life will be when you are actually looking to Jesus who is the Author and Finisher of our faith.







    Gotta walk the walk of whats been done is the thing though, and there are dire consequences when a person doesnt walk the walk. Have to look at ourselves in order to repent of the sins in our life, gotta watch our actions carefully and daily lest we fall into a trap of the idea that Our actions are irrelevant, which while that may not be what you are saying here, can easily be misunderstood to be what you are saying.

    The thing i think is missing here, is that the Holy spirit changes US, Gives us all we need to do Our part and we do assuredly Have a great part to play, because of whats been done for us and what is continually done daily for us. Our part is to repent of the sins in Our life, and follow the Word of God. to label this "self works" is nothing more than discouragement to others to actually do the works were called By God to actually do, to walk in righteousness is our call, not to simply say were righteous because Jesus is righteous, but to put on that garment and fulfill its promise. to watch ourselves carefully, our behavior is an important part of the Gospel.

    this doesnt mean were " trusting in ourself" its about Honoring Jesus in action and truth. about ridding our lives of selfishness in all its forms were called to press foreward, to better ourselves by ridding ourselves of sin, God doesnt force anything on us, He opffers eternal Life to those who will accept it and walk in His ways that are eternal Life, By the spirit we receive through Jesus Christ. its not a good idea to ignore Our actions and just recognize Jesus was righteous any christian should already Know He was and is righteous, the christian Life is about Our response to His offering and How we choose to honor that or take it lightly.

    surely we need to realize He has done what needed to be done, then the question becomes do I believe whats been done and Honor Jesus Christ with My Life?" its not an effortless thing as many as wish it were, its not an easy thing to put to death the misdeeds of Our flesh, but its a requirement for life.

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