PREMILLENNIALISM AND MAKING ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT PROPHECY

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Feb 1, 2014
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#21
I don't know anything about these manmade terms...I know what I know...
And I know there are those who will have a part in the first resurrection and that there will be those who wont.


And I know that those who hear the VOICE of the SON of GOD and those who believe have passed from death to life now...and won't come under condemnation...

It is only those who died outside of faith in CHRIST who will rise in the final judgment to be judged according to their works...
And those whose names are not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire where the false prophet and the beast are.

No one has yet been cast into the lake of fire
I agree that no one has been cast into the lake of fire, but the wicked are being punished now.

As an Armstrongite, I didn't believe that but Scripture is clear. Lazarus and the Rich Man shows that the rich man's brothers were still alive and hadn't made their decision yet at the point Lazarus was experiencing torment in hades (and yes it uses hades instead of Gehenna).

So, the SDA and Armstrongite view that the wicked aren't being tormented now is incorrect. Scripture also says they are under punishment prior to the judgment (2 Peter 2:9).

Some may ask, how can they be punished before the judgment? Obviously God knows the outcome of the judgment of all men anyways. He has exhaustive foreknowledge (Isaiah 46:9-10).

Regarding Revelation, it cannot be read sequentially like premillennial dispensationalists claim. It's obvious that the events of the first part of Revelation 12 occurred at Christ's first coming, yet it follows events that occur at Christ's return (Revelation 11:15-19 and Revelation 12:1-9). To claim Revelation is to be read sequentially has big issues. The same events happen more than once in the book.

Revelation 20 is a review of elements that already occurred in the earlier part of Revelation. For instance, a battle has already occurred between God's people and Satan previous to the one in Revelation 20. All indications are that it's the same battle (Rev 16:12-14 and Rev 20:8-9).

Premillennial dispensationalists would claim that they are two separate events. I don't buy it.
 
Feb 1, 2014
733
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#22
And remember, to GOD a thousand years is as one day, and one day is as a thousand years.

So, not sure "1000 years" is actually and literally "1000 years"...


Could be symbollc!
We agree on one thing..the timing is not in agreement though. I believe it occurs before Christ's return and not after.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
113
#23
The first resurrection (Greek - anastasis) was a spiritual resurrection the same one that all born again Christians go through.


Strongs

G386 anastasis an-as'-tas-is

from G450;

a standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death (individual,
genitive case or by implication, (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral)
recovery
(of spiritual truth)
:--raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the
dead, that should rise, rising again.





We can see who were the first born/"resurrected" from revelation:

Rev 7:13 KJV And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Put the above with James' letter and the picture becomes clear:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

The first "resurrected" of the book of revelation were none other than the repentant of the 12 tribes receiving the gospel in the 1st century AD
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
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#24
Is satan bound now?
And if so, why and when is he let loose again?
Yes he is bound (restricted) now (rev 9). He will be let loose at the end for a little season, meanwhile he is carefully watched and has to act through minions.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#25
Also, has the false prophet and the beast (false christ) been cast into the lake of fire?
If so, can you please tell me who these two were?
at the second coming when Christ brings his judgment on all and the everlasting kingdom is made manifest.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
#26
The first resurrection (Greek - anastasis) was a spiritual resurrection the same one that all born again Christians go through.
Agreed. Eph 2.5-6 Col 3.1-3 John 5.25
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#27
at the second coming when Christ brings his judgment on all and the everlasting kingdom is made manifest.
Please explain why the false prophet and the beast are cast into the lake of fire and it is says the rest of the dead did not come alive again until after the 1000 year reign?

how do the false prophet and beast get cast into the lake of fire before the 1000 year reign and also get cast into the lake of fire after the 1000 year reign?
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#28
Yes he is bound (restricted) now (rev 9). He will be let loose at the end for a little season, meanwhile he is carefully watched and has to act through minions.
1 Pet 5:8) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Luke 4:
5) And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6) And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Rom 8:
21) Because the creature [creation] itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

1 John 5: (ESV)
19) We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Doesn't seem like he's bound or restricted to me...
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#29
We agree on one thing..the timing is not in agreement though. I believe it occurs before Christ's return and not after.
You believe what occurs before Christ's return?
 
May 13, 2017
2,359
27
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#30
I agree that no one has been cast into the lake of fire, but the wicked are being punished now.

As an Armstrongite, I didn't believe that but Scripture is clear. Lazarus and the Rich Man shows that the rich man's brothers were still alive and hadn't made their decision yet at the point Lazarus was experiencing torment in hades (and yes it uses hades instead of Gehenna).

So, the SDA and Armstrongite view that the wicked aren't being tormented now is incorrect. Scripture also says they are under punishment prior to the judgment (2 Peter 2:9).

Some may ask, how can they be punished before the judgment? Obviously God knows the outcome of the judgment of all men anyways. He has exhaustive foreknowledge (Isaiah 46:9-10).

Regarding Revelation, it cannot be read sequentially like premillennial dispensationalists claim. It's obvious that the events of the first part of Revelation 12 occurred at Christ's first coming, yet it follows events that occur at Christ's return (Revelation 11:15-19 and Revelation 12:1-9). To claim Revelation is to be read sequentially has big issues. The same events happen more than once in the book.

Revelation 20 is a review of elements that already occurred in the earlier part of Revelation. For instance, a battle has already occurred between God's people and Satan previous to the one in Revelation 20. All indications are that it's the same battle (Rev 16:12-14 and Rev 20:8-9).

Premillennial dispensationalists would claim that they are two separate events. I don't buy it.
You said "The wicked are being punished now. No...They are harvesting seeds they planted. Cause and effect. If the wicked are being punished now. Why are the innocent being punished too?

Your stance requires too much turning blind eyes to all the factors, choosing which one fit your paradigm and ignoring the rest.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
588
113
#31
The first resurrection (Greek - anastasis) was a spiritual resurrection the same one that all born again Christians go through.


Strongs

G386 anastasis an-as'-tas-is

from G450;

a standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death (individual,
genitive case or by implication, (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral)
recovery
(of spiritual truth)
:--raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the
dead, that should rise, rising again.





We can see who were the first born/"resurrected" from revelation:

Rev 7:13 KJV And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Put the above with James' letter and the picture becomes clear:

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

The first "resurrected" of the book of revelation were none other than the repentant of the 12 tribes receiving the gospel in the 1st century AD
The PROMISE was to many nations...not just the 12 tribes of Israel

Further, in Revelation 7 we do see many nations of people all wearing the SAME WHITE GARMENT.
Revelation 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


(Interesting that you passed over Revelation 7:9...)


And we ALL know that all who want to come to the wedding banquet need the SAME WHITE GARMENT (Matthew 22)
Or they can't come to the wedding feast of the Lamb...


Further, a good review of the construction of the NEW JERUSALEM in Revelation 21 shows 12 foundations of the walls with the names of the 12 apostles along with and together...12 gates which signify the 12 tribes of Israel...

ONE....HOUSE....ONE...FAMILY...ONE...PROMISE...


GOD isn't the GOD and FATHER only of the Jews...

and further, Melchizadek...the TRUE MELCHIZADEK has no beginning of days or end of years and is without genealogy...meaning that HE is in service to ALL men...ALL peoples...ALL tribes/houses...all nations...and is not limited to only the 12 tribes of Israel.
 
Last edited:
May 12, 2017
2,641
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#32
Has anyone actually asked the Holy Spirit to show them which is right? And if you did, did you listen for the answer? I think not. because if you had there would not be so many different answers.
The Bible shows us that there is no secret rapture, only the day of the Lord.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
48
#35
I already believe that "man" in Christ is restored to paradise - so no need to read Chilton's book on it....:p
Do you mane "paradise" a noun ..name of a certain place or a place where the mind is at.

 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
83
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#36
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ialism-making-assumptions-about-prophecy.html
Here's a link to purchase "The End Times Made Simple" by Sam Waldron:

https://www.amazon.com/End-Times-Mad...es+Made+simpl

Here's a link to purchase "Paradise Lost" by David Chilton:

https://www.amazon.com/Paradise-Rest...+david+chilto

.
Sparkman has no problem breaking the forum rules over and over,
trying to solicit people to buy his favorite authors books.

13. No unauthorized advertising or soliciting or recruiting.
Please come to our chat rooms and forums for fellowship, not to try to advertise anything
(not even in private messages to our chat room visitors) or recruit people for anything.

By "anything" we mean anything -- web sites, chat rooms, forums, facebook groups,
churches, groups, doctrine, etc.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
#37
Which men? You do realize that premillennial dispensationalism came about with men like Scofield in the last 200 years?

There was some evidence of premillennialism within 200 years of Christ's death but it DEFINITELY was not premillennial dispensationalism.

Therefore, the accusation that I listen to men can most certainly be leveled against premillennial dispensationalism. It's a silly remark.

How do you explain Matthew 25 and the sorting of the wheat from the chaff, and the goats from the sheep AT CHRIST'S RETURN?

Reading the clear Scriptures first, and basing one's view of end-time events on them, renders a far different result than premillennial dispensationalism. I see the resurrection and reward of the just, and the punishment of the unjust, happening at Christ's return, at the same time.

Revelation 20 is not clear and to base one's view of end times on it, prior to viewing the clearer Scriptures, is unwise. A solid principle of hermeneutics is to look at the clear Scriptures, and interpret Scriptures in light of them, before looking at the unclear Scriptures. Yet that is what premillennial dispensationalists have failed to do.

Show me verses that indicate there is a long time gap between the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. I don't think you can do it without dipping into Revelation 20, which is unclear.
Brother I hate to burst your bubble, as much as I like Sam Storms book, "Chosen for Life" need I remind you that he is also part of the movement that believes that there are apostles, as in the same authority as the first century apostles today. This is why, when someone starts a thread on a subject without Scriptural references they fall flat when they are based on the opinions of a man. You say Dispensationalism is mans opinion, yet the man you quote has his flaws as well. Just because he came out of something you disagree with, do not make him right and what you disagree with right.

Bring the Scriptures so we can bring Scripture to show if you are within what Scripture shows us. Acts 1:6
[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The apostles were expecting a kingdom, are they wrong and if not what kingdom were they expecting?[/FONT]