To Day Shalt Thou Be With Me In Paradise!

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Christian71

Senior Member
May 21, 2017
130
8
0
#1
In these days and times there has been what is called N.D.E or Near Death Experiences and there have been many books written on the subject... But I'm not here to discuss that topic of someone at the point of death and clinically died went somewhere and came back... No this thread is about Soul Sleep!... When the spirit returns to God who gave it, is it living or dormant?... We all know that scripture, To be ABSENT from the body, is to be PRESENT with the Lord... We have all known dear saints of God that quit this earthly tabernacle and gone home to be with Jesus... Notice the comment that Jesus replies to the thief on the cross... TO DAY!... There is no time span... The living spirit goes back to God who gave it to paradise, while this earthly body, is given to corruption in the grave. On the day of the Resurrection, to my understanding of scripture, the bodies that are probably dust by now and scattered over all creation, are joined to the living spirit and made an incorruptible body just like Jesus... In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, just as Apostle Paul states... Where ever this doctrine of Soul Sleep came from it is a heresy and definitely not scripture... Comments... Brother Glen

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,642
3,533
113
#2
Man is a three part being: body, soul and spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Upon death, the spirit of the thief returned to God, the giver of life. The body of the thief was dead and buried. The soul of the thief, the inner man, went to paradise. Before the resurrection of Jesus, paradise was located in Abraham's bosom, were the souls of obedient OT saints were kept captive until lead free by the Lord (Ephesians 4:8). Paradise was translated to the third heaven where it is today (2 Corinthians 12:2).
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#3
I think there are a wealth of things we cannot, and will probably never, understand prior to death.... simply because we live life constrained within a framework of "TIME." It is impossible for us to have any other reference.
 

Christian71

Senior Member
May 21, 2017
130
8
0
#4
I think there are a wealth of things we cannot, and will probably never, understand prior to death.... simply because we live life constrained within a framework of "TIME." It is impossible for us to have any other reference.
Agree... At the point of death there is no time... Brother Glen
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
83
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#5
Where ever this doctrine of Soul Sleep came from it is a heresy and definitely not scripture...
Comments... Brother Glen

Sleeping in the grave in the bible

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth;
in that very day his thoughts perish.

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee:
they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

For in death there is no remembrance of thee:
in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee?
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,
neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Job asks: If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of
my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which
all that are in the graves shall hear his voice

So [David slept] with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

15As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness:
I shall be satisfied, when I [King David] awake, with [thy likeness].

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead
shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to
everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither
have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
-
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it:
because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it:
for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it:
for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold,
a greater than Solomon is here.



And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man which is in heaven.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
83
63
#6
present with the Lord

2Co 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved,
we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.

-Paul uses the tabernacle to represent our earthly house/body which will be dissolved/mortal.
but we have a building form God a house not made with hands, eternal/immortal, in the heavens.

why is Paul saying this? The context from the prior chapter will help:


2Co 4:16 Wherefore we faint not; but though our outward man is decaying,
yet our inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is for
the moment, worketh for us more and more exceedingly an eternal weight of glory;

while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen:
for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

-Our outward man/tabernacle/body is decaying it is mortal but we have faith
in the things that are eternal. What is this in relation to? when will this be?

2Co 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus
shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

-So Paul faints not because of the Grace God gives and the promise that
this corrupt outward mortal man will be raised to eternal life just as Jesus was.

So again Paul says:

2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be [clothed upon] with our house
which is [from] heaven: 2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

-We want that clothing that is from heaven. what clothing?

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that
we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

-mortality might put on life or immortality in other words.

Remember Paul has already connected the Resurrection with this in chapter 4.
but lets make it clear before we go on in the chapter:

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption;
it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

-This all takes place at the last trump at the coming of Christ. when our
mortal bodies are clothed in immortality changed in the twinkling of an eye.

-What does Paul mean we shall not all sleep and the last trump?

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them
which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive
and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

-So the last Trump is at the second coming of Jesus, and we shall not all sleep
but some will still be alive and remain. Those who sleep are resurrected at this time.

So lets go back to the texts in question:

2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body,
we are absent from the Lord:

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

-So through the earnestness of the Spirit they walk by faith not by sight,
in this earthly body and are absent from the Lord. because they are here
on earth and the judgment has not yet come. but:

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body,
and to be present with the Lord.

-They are willing or want to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.
Contextually we have seen this happens at the resurrection not instantly.

Paul does not say or even infer that this is instantaneous at all. He simply says
he would like to be out of this mortal body and to be present with the Lord.
He does not even say that one equals the other but rather he wants to with the Lord.


2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Notice that he says, "present or absent" we may be accepted of him. If being absent means
He is already with the Lord then how is it that the absent still hopes to be accepted of him?

Paul is simply saying that they labour in life by faith in this mortal body.
and the works that they do will follow them even in death/absent.

As it is written:

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write,
Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit,
that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive
the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

copied from a friend: blessings.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
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#7
The ancient philosophers taught that man is essentially an immortal spiritual “soul”
housed in a temporary body of flesh—that the real man is not the body, but an invisible,
immaterial “immortal soul” that thinks, hears, sees and will consciously live on forever.

At death, according to the speculation of the ancients, the soul leaves the body and journeys
to a nebulous realm, possibly paradise or a place of punishment. The body, they observed,
goes to the grave.

the Jewish Encyclopedia explains: “The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews
from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal
exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian
and Egyptian views were strangely blended” .

The doctrine of the immortality of the soul, according to this respected encyclopedia,
came from pre-Christian Greek philosophers who acquired it from pagan Egypt and Babylon!




6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

-Man is composed of flesh. Jesus plainly says that if one is born of
(and therefore composed of) flesh, he cannot also at the same time
be born of (composed of) spirit. He must be one or the other!

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me;
but how to perform that which is good I find not.

-Paul did not distinguish between himself and his flesh in this verse.
He indicated they were one and the same, of himself and his flesh as being synonymous


-at The Creation of Man, the whole man—“thou”—that was composed of dust?
Genesis 3:19 was composed of nothing but earth!

God blew air—“the breath of life” containing oxygen—into the man’s lungs
through his nostrils, and the man began to live!

The verse does not say God breathed an immortal soul into the man.

22All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

- the same “breath of life” also pass through the nostrils of animals, as do humans.
the breath of life that is cut off when a human being or an animal drowns.

If the “breath of life” referred to an immortal soul, then animals, birds
and even insects—gnats, fleas, mosquitoes, etc.—would all have immortal souls!


7And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed
into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

-Man does not have a soul—[man IS a “soul]

The original Hebrew word for “soul” is nephesh.
Bagster’s Analytical Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon defines it as “breath,”
and “anything that breathes, an animal.” It can also refer to a “person,”
or even “one dead, a dead body.”

In Genesis 1:21, 24; 2:19; 9:10, 12, 15-16 and Leviticus 11:46,
the same word nephesh is translated “creature” when referring to animals.

And so man is a soul. Notice that the word nephesh is translated as “dead body”
or “the dead” in Leviticus 19:28; 21:1; 22:4; Numbers 5:2; 6:11 and 9:6-7, 10.

The “soul,” then, is merely an air-breathing entity that is subject to death and decay.
It is not immortal!

The soul is composed of the “dust of the ground.” It is material, not spiritual; it is matter.
When man breathes, he is a “living soul.” When man ceases to breathe, he becomes a
nonliving or dead soul.


4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine:
the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father,
neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous
shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

-If the soul were immortal—eternal—could it die? man is plainly said to be “mortal” Job 4:17.

-Since man is a soul, and the soul is mortal—then man is mortal, subject to death.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
83
63
#8
Lazarus and the Rich Man

Do people burn forever in a Hell-fire? DO SAVED mothers up in heaven
see the writhing and hear the shrieks of their own lost children down in hell?

To spend eternity in a heaven where you would be forced to gaze constantly
upon your own loved ones who were lost, hearing them frantically screaming
to you for help you would be unable to give, gazing constantly upon their agony,
as they, on fire, are burning--burning to death-- yet never really burning up.

That the "saved" go instantly, at death, to heaven while the lost leave their
bodies and are plunged into an ever-burning inferno of eternal torture.

But the "immortal soul" advocates insist this is not a parable!
So lets pretend this was not a parable.

Jesus said, "There was a certain rich man." Then there really was a certain rich man!

Jesus said definitely that this particular rich man "was clothed in purple and fine linen,
and fared sumptuously every day." He really lived in luxury and splendor! (Luke 16:19)

Also, Jesus said, "there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at
his gate full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the
rich mans table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores." (Verses 20-21.)

Yes, there were many such beggars in Palestine when Jesus lived there.
Next Jesus described what happened to them.

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels
into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died and was buried." (Verse 22.)

They both died. Did Jesus say the beggar went to heaven?
He said the beggar "was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom."

Now what is a "bosom"? If you can find what a "bosom" is, and in this case
Abraham's bosom, you will know where the beggar was taken.

Look in your dictionary. A "bosom" is the breast of a human being, with the arms
as an enclosure; a loving embrace by the arms of one person about another;
an intimate relationship.

So Lazarus was carried into an intimate relationship with Abraham.

Lazarus here is pictured as a Gentile, who received salvation. Do Gentiles, upon
being converted and becoming Christ's, enter into any intimate relationship to Abraham?

To the Gentile-born Galatians, the Scriptures written by Paul say definitely: "And if ye
be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed (children), and heirs according to the promise."

Thru Christ they become the children of Abraham. Thru faith we all become
"the children of Abraham." That is an intimate relationship with Abraham.
That is being taken into Abraham's bosom!

Now Abraham is an HEIR of God. God gave Abraham a PROMISE.(Gal. 3:29),
those who thru Christ become Abraham's children are heirs-- but heirs according
to the promise God made to Abraham!

The PROMISE Was Not Heaven!

Now what did God promise Abraham? To what promise was this beggar now
an heir? Did God promise Abraham and his children HEAVEN?

"And Abram took Sarai his wife,...and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan;
and into the land of Canaan they came. ...And the Eternal appeared unto Abram,
and said, Unto thy seed I give THIS LAND." (Gen. 12:5-7.)

God promised Abraham: "For all the LAND which thou seest,
to thee will I give it, and to thy seed FOREVER." (Gen. 13 :15.)

"In the same day the Eternal made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed
have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates."

(Gen. 15:18.) Here God wrote into the agreement, or the title to the property,
the very boundary line of the property. Of course the expression "thy seed"
refers in particular to Christ, but since this beggar was Christ's, he, also, was
"Abraham's seed, and heir according to the promise."

The PROMISE was not heaven. The promise was the LAND of Palestine, on this
earth. It was for ever, so the promise included eternal life, and eternal inheritance.
(Heb. 9:15.) The PROMISE then, was ETERNAL LIFE ON THIS EARTH!

The beggar was carried by the angels into Abraham's BOSOM-- that is, by Bible
explanation, he became one of Abraham's children, and therefore he became an
HEIR to inherit the LAND ON THIS EARTH and ETERNAL LIFE. He was
not yet a possessor--not yet an inheritor--merely an HEIR!

When was this beggar to inherit to come into possession of ETERNAL LIFE
in THE PROMISED LAND? Jesus, in telling about Lazarus and the rich man,
did not cover that point.

The son, who is heir to his father s property cannot come into possession of it
before his father inherits it. This beggar, carried into the intimate relationship
of a son of Abraham, could not inherit either eternal LIFE, or this LAND,
prior to the time his father Abraham receives these promises.

When, then, did Abraham actually receive these promises?
HE DIDN'T! -- he has not, even yet in our day, inherited these promises!

Acts 7: "And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory
appeared unto our Father Abraham . . . and said unto him, Get thee out of thy
country, and from thy kindred, and come into THE LAND which I will show thee.

Then came he out of the land of the Chaldeans . . . into this land, wherein ye now
dwell. (Palestine.) And He gave him none inheritance in it . . . yet He promised that
he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him." (Acts 7:1-5.)

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should
after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; . . . By faith he sojourned in the LAND
of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob,
the heirs with him of the same promise: . . .

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen
them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them,
and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." (Heb. 11:8-13.)

We read in John 8:52, "Abraham is dead". At that time-- centuries after he died,
Abraham WAS DEAD! He is still dead today. When then, is he to inherit the promises?

For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven . . .and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
(I Thes. 4:16.) Human mortals, in Christ, living and dead, receive eternal life-
- immortality-- the PROMISES God made to Abraham at Christ's Second Coming.

That is when they shall put on immortality! "Flesh and blood (human mortals)
cannot inherit the Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Behold, I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in
a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead (including Abraham and the beggar) shall be raised incorruptible,

and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality." (I Cor. 15:50-53.)

That is when they shall put on immortality! "Flesh and blood (human mortals)
cannot inherit the Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

"When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him,"
the Second Coming of Christ--and all the ANGELS come with Him "THEN shall He sit
upon the throne of His glory: . . . THEN"--and not until then--"shall the King say unto
them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, INHERIT THE KINGDOM
prepared for you from the foundation of the world." (Mat. 25:31-34.)

Abraham would receive the promises, including eternal life, thru the RESURRECTION:
"But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto
you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Mat. 22:31-32.) Jesus did not say
Abraham was then living. Yet the things God has promised are so certain they may be
counted as if already accomplished. Abraham, was and still is DEAD.

Jesus spoke this about Abraham "as touching the RESURRECTION of the dead."
Abraham will be RESURRECTED. Jesus told the Pharisees they would see Abraham in
the Kingdom (Luke 13:28), because Abraham, now DEAD, will then be RESURRECTED!

Jesus said about Lazarus in Luke. Jesus said this beggar died. So, like Abraham,
he is STILL DEAD ! But Jesus said that, after he died, "he was carried by the angels
into Abraham's bosom." into the status of a son and heir of Abraham, to inherit
THE LAND on this earth, and ETERNAL LIFE upon it, at the time his father Abraham
comes into his inheritance--at the time of the Resurrection.

But notice, Lazarus is to be carried there by the angels! When do the angels come down
from heaven? : Christ shall "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall
gather together His elect from the four winds"-- out of their graves in a RESURRECTION.
(Mat. 24:31.)

The TIME when the angels carry Lazarus and the saints into sharing the INHERITANCE
with Abraham-- into Abraham's bosom-- is the time of the RESURRECTION! Lazarus is to
be resurrected, and carried by the angels thru the air to meet Christ, at His return, and to
be with Abraham, in the intimate relationship of father and son!

the Bible uses the word "bosom." In Isaiah 40:11. Here God will care for His people as a
shepherd does for his sheep, which He will carry "in His bosom." Jesus was "in the bosom"
of the Father (John 1:18), enjoying the Father's blessings and close relationship.

Moses carried the children of Israel in his bosom. To be in one's bosom is to have
that one's love and protection, and share his blessings and inheritance.
So it will be AT THE RESURRECTION!

The Fate of the Rich Man , what happened to the rich man-- and when!
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
83
63
#9
Lazarus and the Rich Man

Do people burn forever in a Hell-fire? DO SAVED mothers up in heaven
see the writhing and hear the shrieks of their own lost children down in hell?

To spend eternity in a heaven where you would be forced to gaze constantly
upon your own loved ones who were lost, hearing them frantically screaming
to you for help you would be unable to give, gazing constantly upon their agony,
as they, on fire, are burning--burning to death-- yet never really burning up.

That the "saved" go instantly, at death, to heaven while the lost leave their
bodies and are plunged into an ever-burning inferno of eternal torture.

But the "immortal soul" advocates insist this is not a parable!
So lets pretend this was not a parable.

Jesus said, "There was a certain rich man." Then there really was a certain rich man!

Jesus said definitely that this particular rich man "was clothed in purple and fine linen,
and fared sumptuously every day." He really lived in luxury and splendor! (Luke 16:19)

Also, Jesus said, "there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at
his gate full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the
rich mans table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores." (Verses 20-21.)

Yes, there were many such beggars in Palestine when Jesus lived there.
Next Jesus described what happened to them.

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels
into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died and was buried." (Verse 22.)

They both died. Did Jesus say the beggar went to heaven?
He said the beggar "was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom."

Now what is a "bosom"? If you can find what a "bosom" is, and in this case
Abraham's bosom, you will know where the beggar was taken.

Look in your dictionary. A "bosom" is the breast of a human being, with the arms
as an enclosure; a loving embrace by the arms of one person about another;
an intimate relationship.

So Lazarus was carried into an intimate relationship with Abraham.

Lazarus here is pictured as a Gentile, who received salvation. Do Gentiles, upon
being converted and becoming Christ's, enter into any intimate relationship to Abraham?

To the Gentile-born Galatians, the Scriptures written by Paul say definitely: "And if ye
be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed (children), and heirs according to the promise."

Thru Christ they become the children of Abraham. Thru faith we all become
"the children of Abraham." That is an intimate relationship with Abraham.
That is being taken into Abraham's bosom!

Now Abraham is an HEIR of God. God gave Abraham a PROMISE.(Gal. 3:29),
those who thru Christ become Abraham's children are heirs-- but heirs according
to the promise God made to Abraham!

The PROMISE Was Not Heaven!

Now what did God promise Abraham? To what promise was this beggar now
an heir? Did God promise Abraham and his children HEAVEN?

"And Abram took Sarai his wife,...and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan;
and into the land of Canaan they came. ...And the Eternal appeared unto Abram,
and said, Unto thy seed I give THIS LAND." (Gen. 12:5-7.)

God promised Abraham: "For all the LAND which thou seest,
to thee will I give it, and to thy seed FOREVER." (Gen. 13 :15.)

"In the same day the Eternal made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed
have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates."

(Gen. 15:18.) Here God wrote into the agreement, or the title to the property,
the very boundary line of the property. Of course the expression "thy seed"
refers in particular to Christ, but since this beggar was Christ's, he, also, was
"Abraham's seed, and heir according to the promise."

The PROMISE was not heaven. The promise was the LAND of Palestine, on this
earth. It was for ever, so the promise included eternal life, and eternal inheritance.
(Heb. 9:15.) The PROMISE then, was ETERNAL LIFE ON THIS EARTH!

The beggar was carried by the angels into Abraham's BOSOM-- that is, by Bible
explanation, he became one of Abraham's children, and therefore he became an
HEIR to inherit the LAND ON THIS EARTH and ETERNAL LIFE. He was
not yet a possessor--not yet an inheritor--merely an HEIR!

When was this beggar to inherit to come into possession of ETERNAL LIFE
in THE PROMISED LAND? Jesus, in telling about Lazarus and the rich man,
did not cover that point.

The son, who is heir to his father s property cannot come into possession of it
before his father inherits it. This beggar, carried into the intimate relationship
of a son of Abraham, could not inherit either eternal LIFE, or this LAND,
prior to the time his father Abraham receives these promises.

When, then, did Abraham actually receive these promises?
HE DIDN'T! -- he has not, even yet in our day, inherited these promises!

Acts 7: "And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory
appeared unto our Father Abraham . . . and said unto him, Get thee out of thy
country, and from thy kindred, and come into THE LAND which I will show thee.

Then came he out of the land of the Chaldeans . . . into this land, wherein ye now
dwell. (Palestine.) And He gave him none inheritance in it . . . yet He promised that
he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him." (Acts 7:1-5.)

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should
after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; . . . By faith he sojourned in the LAND
of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob,
the heirs with him of the same promise: . . .

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen
them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them,
and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth." (Heb. 11:8-13.)

We read in John 8:52, "Abraham is dead". At that time-- centuries after he died,
Abraham WAS DEAD! He is still dead today. When then, is he to inherit the promises?

For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven . . .and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
(I Thes. 4:16.) Human mortals, in Christ, living and dead, receive eternal life-
- immortality-- the PROMISES God made to Abraham at Christ's Second Coming.

That is when they shall put on immortality! "Flesh and blood (human mortals)
cannot inherit the Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Behold, I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in
a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead (including Abraham and the beggar) shall be raised incorruptible,

and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality." (I Cor. 15:50-53.)

That is when they shall put on immortality! "Flesh and blood (human mortals)
cannot inherit the Kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

"When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him,"
the Second Coming of Christ--and all the ANGELS come with Him "THEN shall He sit
upon the throne of His glory: . . . THEN"--and not until then--"shall the King say unto
them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, INHERIT THE KINGDOM
prepared for you from the foundation of the world." (Mat. 25:31-34.)

Abraham would receive the promises, including eternal life, thru the RESURRECTION:
"But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto
you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Mat. 22:31-32.) Jesus did not say
Abraham was then living. Yet the things God has promised are so certain they may be
counted as if already accomplished. Abraham, was and still is DEAD.

Jesus spoke this about Abraham "as touching the RESURRECTION of the dead."
Abraham will be RESURRECTED. Jesus told the Pharisees they would see Abraham in
the Kingdom (Luke 13:28), because Abraham, now DEAD, will then be RESURRECTED!

Jesus said about Lazarus in Luke. Jesus said this beggar died. So, like Abraham,
he is STILL DEAD ! But Jesus said that, after he died, "he was carried by the angels
into Abraham's bosom." into the status of a son and heir of Abraham, to inherit
THE LAND on this earth, and ETERNAL LIFE upon it, at the time his father Abraham
comes into his inheritance--at the time of the Resurrection.

But notice, Lazarus is to be carried there by the angels! When do the angels come down
from heaven? : Christ shall "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall
gather together His elect from the four winds"-- out of their graves in a RESURRECTION.
(Mat. 24:31.)

The TIME when the angels carry Lazarus and the saints into sharing the INHERITANCE
with Abraham-- into Abraham's bosom-- is the time of the RESURRECTION! Lazarus is to
be resurrected, and carried by the angels thru the air to meet Christ, at His return, and to
be with Abraham, in the intimate relationship of father and son!

the Bible uses the word "bosom." In Isaiah 40:11. Here God will care for His people as a
shepherd does for his sheep, which He will carry "in His bosom." Jesus was "in the bosom"
of the Father (John 1:18), enjoying the Father's blessings and close relationship.

Moses carried the children of Israel in his bosom. To be in one's bosom is to have
that one's love and protection, and share his blessings and inheritance.
So it will be AT THE RESURRECTION!

The Fate of the Rich Man , what happened to the rich man-- and when!

Jesus said of him: " . . . rich man also died, and was buried." (Luke 16:22.) Jesus did
not say the rich man was taken immediately at that time to an eternally burning hell.

He did not say the body was buried but that the rich man himself was plunged immediately
into a burning hell. He said the rich man died--and the rich man, himself, was buried.
People are buried in a grave, and covered with earth.

Jesus said, "And in hell he lifted up his eyes." (v. 23.)

And in this hell he "lifted up his eyes." His eyes had been closed, in death,
and now there came a time when they opened--he "lifted up his eyes!"

Jesus died and was buried also-- and in the same kind of "hell"

So the rich man was in a place called hell, after all, wasn't he? And in this hell he
"lifted up his eyes." His eyes had been closed, in death, and now there came a
time when they opened--he "lifted up his eyes!"

What kind of hell is this?

Startling though it may be, the rich man was buried in the same kind of "hell"
Jesus was buried in! Yes, Jesus died and was buried-- and in " hell!"

In the first inspired sermon preached by Peter on the day the New Testament Church
started, Peter said: "He (David) seeing this be fore spake of the RESURRECTION
of Christ, that His soul was not left IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption."
(Acts 2:31.)

Jesus, too, died and was buried. And in "hell" He, too, lifted up His eyes--
WHEN HE WAS RESURRECTED!

Now let me explain that, and make it plain!

The New Testament was written in the Greek language. Your Bible is a translation in
the English language. In the English language your Bible probably reads "And in hell
he lifted up his eyes." However, in the original Greek in which the New Testament
was written there are three different Greek words, each having a totally different
meaning, but all three of which were translated into the "King James" and Catholic
translations by the English word "hell."

One of the Greek words is "tartaros," which refers only to the present condition of
darkness, or perversion, and of restraint, of the fallen angels, or demons. Another is
"gehenna," a place at the bottom of a high ledge at the south end of Jerusalem, where
garbage, refuse, and bodies of dead animals and the worst criminals were dumped over
the ledge to be burned up. Down below, the fires were kept continually burning. They
burned up, or consumed--totally destroyed the bodies and refuse dumped there.

This is the word Jesus used when He spoke of being
finally DESTROYED in "HELL FIRE."

But this rich man was not buried in that "hell." He was not in "gehenna." The third,
and most commonly used Greek word was written here by Luke-- "hades."
And "hades" means THE GRAVE--a place of BURIAL in the ground!

When the King James translation of the Bible was made, Englishmen spoke commonly
of "putting their potatoes in hell for the winter." They buried them in the ground!

This is the "hell" Jesus was buried in--the "hell" His soul was not left in-- the grave,
or tomb, from which He was RESURRECTED! And this, hades, was also the "hell"
in which the rich man was BURIED!

WHEN Did He Open His Eyes?
Now once again, Jesus did not say when this rich man, "in hell," lifted up his eyes.
Jesus pictured him as one of the wicked, or lost. We must look to other Scriptures
to tell us when the unjust will lift up their eyes in their graves.

Daniel speaks of the resurrection of the just, and of the unjust: "And many of them
that sleep (their eyes closed) in the dust of the earth (their graves-- buried--in "hades",
shall awake (lift up their eyes) some to everlasting life, and some to shame and
everlasting contempt." (Dan. 12:2.)

Jesus said: " . . . the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves (the original
Greek word Jesus used is "hades") shall hear His voice, and shall come forth: they
that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil
(including the rich man), unto the RESURRECTION of judgment." (John 5:28-29.)

Here Jesus speaks of two different, separate resurrections. Quoted above
are Scriptures showing that the "dead in Christ" are to be resurrected
AT HIS SECOND COMING.

In I Cor. 15:22-24, we read that ALL are to be resurrected but in an order of
different resurrections--Christ Himself, 1900 years ago; afterward, in a different
resurrection, "they that are Christ's at His coming," and then "cometh the end,"
--indicating the resurrection of the unjust later.

In Rev. 20:4 we read of the resurrection of those in Christ at His coming. But Rev. 20:5
says: "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

So the resurrection of the rich man and all the unjust or unsaved will take place after
the millennium! It is pictured and described in Rev. 20:11-12.

So, while Jesus in speaking about the rich man and Lazarus did not say when the rich
man will open his eyes and be resurrected out of his grave, other Scriptures do reveal
that it will be after the millennium!
 
Apr 15, 2017
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#10
We are spirit,soul,and flesh.

All spirits go back to God who gave them regardless of how the person behaved on earth,which it could be our connection to God while on earth,so the spirit cannot be tainted with sin,because the spirit of the wicked would not go back to God,and probably has no life after it goes back to God.

The flesh will be put off of the saints,and they will have a glorified body.

The soul is the only thing that will live forever with the saints that was part of their being while in the flesh.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord,and at the 5th seal there are souls under the altar that say,how long Lord will it be before you avenge us,and He said,when all the saints are gathered unto Me,the resurrection when all the saints that are alive shall be caught up.

It could mean the dead rise first is all the saints that have died before the resurrection of the live saints,for they all resurrected to be with Jesus when they died,not that the dead rise at the time of the resurrection of the live saints,for what is there to rise,if to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

The thief on the cross acknowledged Jesus as Lord and Savior when he said,remember me Lord when you come in to your kingdom,and He told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him that day in paradise,which Jesus dies before the thief,and salvation was effective,and when the thief died he went to be present with the Lord.

Jesus said,He is the Son of man on earth,as well as in heaven,for He is God manifest in flesh,and according to His deity an omnipresent Spirit,which the thief would be with Jesus in paradise,athough Jesus went to conquer death,hell,and the grave.

Had the thief died before Jesus it would seem like he would not be present with the Lord until Jesus died.

When Jesus died,and salvation was effective,all the Old Testament saints,and the saints that acknowledged Jesus,but died before Jesus,went to to be present with the Lord,and everybody that dies in the Lord is present with the Lord.

The spirit will not be part of the saints in heaven,because all spirits go back to God who gave them regardless how the person acted on earth,and the Bible says the souls are under the altar in heaven.

On earth the spirit is our connection to God,because we are in the flesh,and God will have no relationship with flesh,but the saints in heaven do not need that spirit connection anymore,for the flesh is gone,and our soul in a glorified body is our relationship to God.