This is the Dividing Line on BDF

[Desertsrose]

Hebrews 10:26 can be a stumbling block if we don't take the context in which this passage was written.

Some times well intentioned people take Hebrews 10:26-29 out of context with the book of Hebrews.

Anyone can take an isolated scripture out of it's context and say anything they want. Here is an example in the scripture below - Ex 32:33. Anyone who has ever sinned is blotted out of God's book.

Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

This is truly stated in the OT but it is not the ultimate statement of truth. The work of Jesus's finished work on the cross trumps what is said in Ex. 32:33.

Obviously we need to view all scripture through the finished work of Christ. We don't take obscure verses and discount the abundance of clear scriptures on what our Lord has done for us.

Hebrews 10 is talking about Jewish people after hearing about Christ for the only sacrifice for sins and rejecting it to go back to the temple sacrifices for their sins.

Hebrews was written a few years before the temple system came crashing down in 70AD when it was trampled by the Roman army.

The "willful sinning" is after hearing the "knowledge" of the truth of Christ's sacrifice - those that go back to the temple sacrifices and do not receive Christ's work by faith - this is the wilful sinning being talked about - the rejection of Christ's sacrifice and blood for the forgiveness of all sins.

This is insulting the Spirit of grace. The Holy Spirit's work is to convict/convince/expose the world of their sin - which is unbelief in Christ's work. John 16:8-9

There is a vast difference between receiving the "knowledge" of the truth and "receiving the truth" which is Christ Himself.

Hi Grace,

I'm only going to address the Exodus scripture here, because I think you missed the point of what really is being said.

Here in Exodus the people had just made the golden calf and Moses has just come down from the mountain. Moses questions Aaron how he could do such a thing to make an idol for the people to worship.

Aaron makes his excuses and blames his actions on the people. Afterwards Moses says to the people, "All those who are for the Lord, come to me." And here's what happened.

~~~

He said to them, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Every man of you put his sword upon his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.’”

So the sons of Levi did as Moses instructed, and about three thousand men of the people fell that day. Then Moses said, “Dedicate yourselves today to the Lord—for every man has been against his son and against his brother—in order that He may bestow a blessing upon you today.

On the next day Moses said to the people, “You yourselves have committed a great sin; and now I am going up to the Lord, perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.” Then Moses returned to the Lord, and said, “Alas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves. But now, if You will, forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!”

The Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book. But go now, lead the people where I told you.

We see God's forgiveness here among the context where you tried to say that this scripture doesn't mean what it says. It is still an ultimate truth because Jesus forgave them of their sin here except the 3000 people. Those 3000 that were judged that day were blotted out of God's book.

Here we have Moses, the great intercessor talking to those who repented of their sin. Moses tells them this great sin they committed needed to be atoned for. Moses pleads their case before God to forgive those who sinned and then tells God that if He will not forgive their sins then Moses says to blot out his name from God's book as well.

And then God says that the one who sins He will blot out from His book.

The point was that Moses was innocent of this great sin. The one who sins will bear his own sin. That's the point of the message. There was atonement for sin in the OT. So we know that God wasn't saying for one sin man is blotted out from His book. God forgave sins constantly.

It was those who continued in sin showing their lack of faith that would be the ones who would have their name removed from God's book. Not the faithful. God is the same today, yesterday and forever.

Btw, having your name blotted out is not an obscure passage of scripture.

Grace, I'm thinking that you are feeding at the wrong trough from wherever you received this teaching. I don't think that you really read this whole passage in Exodus, because if you did, I don't think you would come to the conclusion that Jesus trumps this when, in fact, this understanding is weaved throughout the whole bible.

The one who sins will have his name blotted out. The one who sins will die. Also, Jesus doesn't trump anything, He fulfills......Jesus can't rank Himself above Himself, He's the ultimate.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Goeie Afrikaans vriend!

Please pray for us, tonight we are having church at our house and we are trusting God to work mightily in our midst.

Love home churches,, The way they did it in the NT,, Bless you and your church tonight. May God work a mighty work.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have a question. Does light reveal darkness? Or does it dispel it?

Jesus is the Light of the world. When He is within us...is the Light making us into His image by revealing the soul of mankind? Or revealing Himself to us as what He has already given?

Should not the Light be flooding our soul? Rather than condemning it?

John 3:20
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi Grace,

I'm only going to address the Exodus scripture here, because I think you missed the point of what really is being said.

Here in Exodus the people had just made the golden calf and Moses has just come down from the mountain. Moses questions Aaron how he could do such a thing to make an idol for the people to worship.

Aaron makes his excuses and blames his actions on the people. Afterwards Moses says to the people, "All those who are for the Lord, come to me." And here's what happened.

~~~

He said to them, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Every man of you put his sword upon his thigh, and go back and forth from gate to gate in the camp, and kill every man his brother, and every man his friend, and every man his neighbor.’”

So the sons of Levi did as Moses instructed, and about three thousand men of the people fell that day. Then Moses said, “Dedicate yourselves today to the Lord—for every man has been against his son and against his brother—in order that He may bestow a blessing upon you today.

On the next day Moses said to the people, “You yourselves have committed a great sin; and now I am going up to the Lord, perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.” Then Moses returned to the Lord, and said, “Alas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves. But now, if You will, forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!”

The Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book. But go now, lead the people where I told you.

We see God's forgiveness here among the context where you tried to say that this scripture doesn't mean what it says. It is still an ultimate truth because Jesus forgave them of their sin here except the 3000 people. Those 3000 that were judged that day were blotted out of God's book.

Here we have Moses, the great intercessor talking to those who repented of their sin. Moses tells them this great sin they committed needed to be atoned for. Moses pleads their case before God to forgive those who sinned and then tells God that if He will not forgive their sins then Moses says to blot out his name from God's book as well.

And then God says that the one who sins He will blot out from His book.

The point was that Moses was innocent of this great sin. The one who sins will bear his own sin. That's the point of the message. There was atonement for sin in the OT. So we know that God wasn't saying for one sin man is blotted out from His book. God forgave sins constantly.

It was those who continued in sin showing their lack of faith that would be the ones who would have their name removed from God's book. Not the faithful. God is the same today, yesterday and forever.

Btw, having your name blotted out is not an obscure passage of scripture.

Grace, I'm thinking that you are feeding at the wrong trough from wherever you received this teaching. I don't think that you really read this whole passage in Exodus, because if you did, I don't think you would come to the conclusion that Jesus trumps this when, in fact, this understanding is weaved throughout the whole bible.

The one who sins will have his name blotted out. The one who sins will die. Also, Jesus doesn't trump anything, He fulfills......Jesus can't rank Himself above Himself, He's the ultimate.

You obviously missed the whole point of "why" I posted Ex. 32:33 and the whole context of it in the rest of what I wrote. Exodus 32:33 has nothing to do with the rest of my post - it's "an example" of using scripture to say what we want to say.

I have posted a few times about "stringing scriptures together" without taking into account what Christ has done.

I'll post that after this one so maybe it'll be more clear what I was doing...



The purpose was to show that we can post scriptures without taking the finished work of Christ into account and thus make a doctrine up that nullifies the very grace of God that is in the gospel message of Christ.

The truth is the "willful sinning" talked about in Hebrews 10 is the rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ sacrifice and depending on the temple sacrifices for sins. Remember the book is written to Hebrews both saved and ones that are thinking about Christ as Savior.

 

[Grace777x70]

One thing to keep in mind is that it is possible to post a "string" of scriptures that are all taken out of context from both the OT and the NT to "prove" a teaching.

I like to use Exodus 32:33 as an example. Let's say I have this "theory" that we must be sinless all of our lives to get to heaven.

I start with the below scripture from Moses and from the start it's not looking good for us......

Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

I then can go on to post scriptures from Moses to David to Jesus all about sin and what it does. Then I end up with the book of Revelation 21:8 where it says that all immoral people will be thrown in the lake of fire.

All of these scriptures are true but none of them take into consideration the finished work of Christ and how that Jesus' blood has redeemed sinners.

Jesus' truths trump ( sorry to the Americans for using "trump" as that word can be a stumbling block to some ) all those scriptures that were "strung" together to prove my above theory in the first place.

The finished work of Christ is what all other scriptures need to be interpreted through before IMO they can be legitimately used to support a teaching.


The funny thing about Greek is that most of the people in NT days spoke Greek and understood the language unlike us today, yet they still needed the Holy Spirit to reveal the truths of the Lord to them.

I find it fascinating to read a scripture I have known all my Christian life and then one day - the Holy Spirit illuminates that scripture and I am amazed at how I didn't see that before.

I maintain that we are just as dependent on the Holy Spirit to reveal Jesus to us in the scriptures as Mary was dependent on the Holy Spirit to conceive Jesus in her womb.

We can read the scriptures through the lens of our natural minds whether we know all the Greek words and structure or not and come away with the wrong reality of spiritual truths.

 

[Desertsrose]

i think we get upset when we see people willingly following the way of the Pharisee, and you keep showing them over and over, and they keep excusing it away, and then it gets to the point they lie about you or attack you to make you look bad for even questioning them,

people respond in different ways when this happens.

Hi EG,

I understand what you're saying here, I really do. But are we speaking out of our new man? Are we being led of the Spirit and walking in the Spirit with the carnal responses we give in anger, in name calling etc.

Can we know that they're a Pharisee? Can they simply be mistaken or in a denomination that might teach something that's wrong and they don't know it yet?

Have you ever changed your understanding of a particular passage?

Can we win others over to truth by name calling, belittling, throwing stones, riling agains them, etc?

Will we draw them to truth this way? Do we want them to come to the truth? Or do we want to show our superior knowledge and roll right over the top of them?

Sure maybe they're not lovely or kind or patient. Maybe they are calling names and trowing stones. But do we want to act like them?

Contending for the faith is not to fight with anger, name calling and the like. The motivation is to love the unlovely and hopefully bring them to the knowledge of the truth.

Disagreeing and arguing can be done in a spirit of love. Maybe if we tried doing things God's way, we'd learn a few things ourselves.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi EG,

I understand what you're saying here, I really do. But are we speaking out of our new man? Are we being led of the Spirit and walking in the Spirit with the carnal responses we give in anger, in name calling etc.

Can we know that they're a Pharisee? Can they simply be mistaken or in a denomination that might teach something that's wrong and they don't know it yet?

Have you ever changed your understanding of a particular passage?

Can we win others over to truth by name calling, belittling, throwing stones, riling agains them, etc?

Will we draw them to truth this way? Do we want them to come to the truth? Or do we want to show our superior knowledge and roll right over the top of them?

Sure maybe they're not lovely or kind or patient. Maybe they are calling names and trowing stones. But do we want to act like them?

Contending for the faith is not to fight with anger, name calling and the like. The motivation is to love the unlovely and hopefully bring them to the knowledge of the truth.

Disagreeing and arguing can be done in a spirit of love. Maybe if we tried doing things God's way, we'd learn a few things ourselves.

I am going to be honest here, I have seen many people since this war started do just what your talking about, And they got crapped on.( I even tried a few times myself, and maybe got a day of good discussion, then it all starts all over again, It is almost as if they are playing, Some people will never change, Or at least, they will not change as long as they are enabled because no one will call them out for their sin

The BDF has not been the same since a war was started against Grace777 and hypergrace. and I know a few of us would like to have our BDF back.

Yes, it could get heated before. But the same people and the same war, month after month, Lie after lie, Slander after slander.

it gets old. it is time for people to stand up and call a sin for what it is, Sin.

 

[Desertsrose]

Hi EG, I'll respond in brown within your quote.

Yes, you extend grace,

but then hen what do you do when she gets angry, starts attacking you, starts living about what you believe, and a group of them get together and start a war (as happened with the hypergrace war a few months ago, which was very nasty)

Well what do we do? What do the scriptures say? We continue to extend grace, yes?

and if if she believes in works, is she really our sister? And if you do not think she is, do you not continue to try to show her or him the way to become your sister or brother?

I mentioned this is the last post......how many of us lived out what we were taught from wrong teachings we received or from our own misunderstanding of reading scripture?

Can you say that you never fell into a wrong understanding and lived it for a while and then later changed because in the sanctification process you learned from the Lord something different?

Sometimes we just have a blind spot in a certain area of our walk with the Lord. And who is the one that can remove that blind spot. God can reach us through others, but ultimately it is He who is the one that removes that blind area in our life.

And the fighting and name calling, belittling and anger doesn't draw the one who is not our sister to become a sister in the Lord. It's with the truth of the Gospel which is LOVE. I don't see a whole lot of love from either side......not always, just generalizing here because there are some, a few that might show love among the fist-a-cuffs.

What I see is that we all have a lot of passion, we're passionate about what we believe and that is good. The arguing is not wrong when done in the Spirit of love. But there's the possibility that she is a sister and if she has a blind spot, we can say where we disagree and allow the Spirit of the Lord to carry on.

The amount of times we say something and the different ways we might say the same thing, at some point we must come to realize we've said everything that can be said. So we leave them with the truth and leave them in the Lord's hands and trust Him, that He will bring truth to them if they are in error.

 

[stonesoffire]

John 3:20
For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

Am talking more about Christians EG rather than sinners. Though I suppose a Christian won't want to be exposed either until they repent. Or us....I should say we rather than they...it sounds like pointing fingers at others without acknowledging its for all.

 

[Desertsrose]

You can never blur the line between light and darkness. Despite the adversary's best efforts he will be sorted out at the end of the world.

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Hi Roger,

So true what you say. But the real danger is when satan comes as an angel of light and tells us what's almost true. How many of us have been fooled by him?

The problem is not with the obvious truth from error, light from darkness.

The danger is mostly when the right is attacked by the almost right. The truth is attacked by the almost truth. That's how the enemy comes to deceive. He comes not with a stark contrast. He comes so close to the truth that we'll think it is the truth if we're not discerning with the Spirit of God within.

That's why we're told to put off the old man and put on the new, that's why we're told to walk in the Spirit, to be filled with the Spirit, to keep in step with the Spirit so that our discerning in engaged at every moment.

 

[Grace777x70]

I believe that some believers in Christ can "act" like wolves because they are deceived by the subtleness of satan's belief system of "doing to get" and thus preach and teach his message of works-based mindset and beliefs. There are others that are wolves and not born-again but only God knows the heart of man.

I have written about this a few times.

I agree that some people are definitely false prophets on purpose and others are just deceived and it is so subtle too....sometimes it is hard to pick them out because they could just be a product of false teaching or an incomplete understanding of the gospel of the grace of Christ and "in their own minds" are just trying to "defend the faith".

None of us have complete truth in all things. Only God knows and can judge the difference of what is in the heart of people.

Satan and his horde do not come to the believer in Christ and say "Sin all you want" because no one would for fall for such a lie.

Instead they come as "ministers of righteousness".

They want us to live by our own D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness so that we will be not be depending on what Christ has done for us by grace through faith alone for salvation.

This cuts us off from receiving the grace of God in our lives.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14[/SUP] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

[SUP]15[/SUP] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

( notice that is "their" works and the true Christian that has Christ in them is going to be "according to Christ Himself " because as He is - so are we in this world)

This below in 1 Peter 1:13 is what satan is really after...this is why he has false prophets/teachers in our midst.

He wants us to fall away from grace and depend on our own performance and human will-power instead of what Christ has done in His finished work on the cross and resurrection.

1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[Desertsrose]

I am going to be honest here, I have seen many people since this war started do just what your talking about, And they got crapped on.( I even tried a few times myself, and maybe got a day of good discussion, then it all starts all over again, It is almost as if they are playing, Some people will never change, Or at least, they will not change as long as they are enabled because no one will call them out for their sin

The BDF has not been the same since a war was started against Grace777 and hypergrace. and I know a few of us would like to have our BDF back.

Yes, it could get heated before. But the same people and the same war, month after month, Lie after lie, Slander after slander.

it gets old. it is time for people to stand up and call a sin for what it is, Sin.

Hi EG,

I'm fairly new here so I don't know what's happened in the past. I didn't realize that others are after Grace. If that's the case, it's not obvious.....or it's not obvious to me. But then, I don't engage in a lot of the stone throwing threads.

I remember that Ugly who's been here forever has said that BDF has always been this way. So I don't know what you mean about getting the BDF back. It seems there's always turmoil.

And okay, you're nice and you get stepped all over. Great! Praise the Lord!!!! Isn't that what we're called to do and what we've been told will happen? And aren't we told to consider ourselves blessed when this happens? And are we not also told to not render evil for evil, but instead render good for evil?

You said it's time for people to call sin, sin? Okay, I'm calling most of the responses in the BDF sin!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi EG, I'll respond in brown within your quote.

when we get to heaven, Jesus is not going to say, its ok, those people taught you wrong, Go ahead and enter in.

All the people who wre taught wrong by the jewish religious leaders. Jesus did not give a break.

And non of this excuses their sin.

Again, Is not even a doctrinal issue anymore, people are sick and tired of their slander and their lies,

 

[stonesoffire]

Sin? Flesh perhaps...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi EG,

I'm fairly new here so I don't know what's happened in the past. I didn't realize that others are after Grace. If that's the case, it's not obvious.....or it's not obvious to me. But then, I don't engage in a lot of the stone throwing threads.

I remember that Ugly who's been here forever has said that BDF has always been this way. So I don't know what you mean about getting the BDF back. It seems there's always turmoil.

And okay, you're nice and you get stepped all over. Great! Praise the Lord!!!! Isn't that what we're called to do and what we've been told will happen? And aren't we told to consider ourselves blessed when this happens? And are we not also told to not render evil for evil, but instead render good for evil?

You said it's time for people to call sin, sin? Okay, I'm calling most of the responses in the BDF sin!

I have been here since 2011, And yes, there are threads that get heated, because people are passionate about what they believe,

but again, that is not the issue here, the issue is the attacks and lies of a few select people who seem to feel they have free reign to tell anyone what they believe, and do not have to suffer any consequences at all.. While they judge others.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Am talking more about Christians EG rather than sinners. Though I suppose a Christian won't want to be exposed either until they repent. Or us....I should say we rather than they...it sounds like pointing fingers at others without acknowledging its for all.

it is interesting, when we struggle with a sin issue, and do not understand grace, how we hide from the light,, You can usually tell when a person is struggling, they start to miss meetings, pray less, stop hanging out with the body.

 

[Desertsrose]

You obviously missed the whole point of "why" I posted Ex. 32:33 and the whole context of it in the rest of what I wrote. Exodus 32:33 has nothing to do with the rest of my post - it's "an example" of using scripture to say what we want to say.

I have posted a few times about "stringing scriptures together" without taking into account what Christ has done.

I'll post that after this one so maybe it'll be more clear what I was doing...



The purpose was to show that we can post scriptures without taking the finished work of Christ into account and thus make a doctrine up that nullifies the very grace of God that is in the gospel message of Christ.

The truth is the "willful sinning" talked about in Hebrews 10 is the rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ sacrifice and depending on the temple sacrifices for sins. Remember the book is written to Hebrews both saved and ones that are thinking about Christ as Savior.

Hi Grace,

I was only addressing the Exodus scripture because for it to work for what you were trying to say in Hebrews, it can only help if you're giving an accurate example in your Exodus text.

I just wanted to show that it doesn't work because you were misunderstanding the very passage you were trying to use as an example.

And the reason you messed up is because the very thing you were trying to correct us on is the very thing you did. You took a scripture out of context.

 

[stonesoffire]

it is interesting, when we struggle with a sin issue, and do not understand grace, how we hide from the light,, You can usually tell when a person is struggling, they start to miss meetings, pray less, stop hanging out with the body.

Yes, I've done it. It's just areas of our life that we want to hold on to as important, and we don't realize that we are saying to the Lord, that it's more important than You. It's idolatry. But, we don't want to label that correctly. We aren't bowing down to an idol...or are we?

There isn't one Christian that has ever laid it all down at the Cross from the beginning IMHO. One can make even reading fiction an idol in the life.

And I think it's because of this...that Paul said to reckon death to sin on a daily basis. If we do this...then we are truly free.

Free to be His completely. Not perfect...His.

 

[Desertsrose]

I have been here since 2011, And yes, there are threads that get heated, because people are passionate about what they believe,

but again, that is not the issue here, the issue is the attacks and lies of a few select people who seem to feel they have free reign to tell anyone what they believe, and do not have to suffer any consequences at all.. While they judge others.

Hi EG,

I love you in the Lord and because I do I want to ask this, even though it may seem harsh. What you posted above, does that resemble you as well as you respond in the BDF?

Can you cast that first stone against all others while leaving yourself out of the group?

 

[Grace777x70]

Hi Grace,

I was only addressing the Exodus scripture because for it to work for what you were trying to say in Hebrews, it can only help if you're giving an accurate example in your Exodus text.

I just wanted to show that it doesn't work because you were misunderstanding the very passage you were trying to use as an example.

And the reason you messed up is because the very thing you were trying to correct us on is the very thing you did. You took a scripture out of context.

I know I did. I did it "on purpose" to show that any scripture can be used to say what we want it to say based on our previous church teachings - such as what the willful sinning actually is in Hebrews 10:26...