Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

[Jimbone]

You cannot possibly equate Mormons, JWs and Catholics with Muslims. Three of those religions are based on the Biblical God. One is not.

And the base is where it gets interesting. There's a foothold for climbing up the base of the first three religions to declare the Lord. Sheer -- mirror-smooth -- cliff for Muslims.

Calvin and Luther had no interest in leaving the Catholic Church. The 95 Theses was not a decree of war. It was an act of love. Luther was hitting his own church building with the beauty that is God for others to see.

Some stay to reform, to introduce others to the truth, to find fellowship among their own kind, when frankly, their own kind also includes the small group of like-minded believers. In my first year of being born-again, I found other born-again Catholics. As a babe in Christ, who better to teach me the good and the bad within the religion I grew up in?

They're there as God's missionaries. 600 years later -- and exactly 600 years on October 31st of this year -- and they're still trying to change it within. God bless the ones he gave a heart to stay, because without them, I would probably still be mighty confused between what I learned growing up, and the true doctrines of the Lord.

A friend of hubby -- the same woman who brought him to the Lord -- had a cool experience with Jehovah's Witnesses. They came to her door in the usual manner, and she made them a deal. She would truly listen to everything they wanted to say, even give them some coffee and snacks, in exchange for the exact same amount of time for her to respond to what they said, including more coffee and more snacks. lol

They took her up on her offer and talked with her for... (actually this was 46 years ago, so I don't remember how much time it was, but it was either) 1 or 1.5 hours. And when they were done, she thanked them, headed to the door, locked it, and blocked it, because they were getting ready to leave. Then she reminded them of their promise. And then she spent the same amount of time showing them word for word in the Bible where they got what they believed wrong.

And at the end of her time they bolted, and never returned.

Why didn't they return? Probably because there were more questions that no one in their church could answer. And what happens when that happens? The questions spread. She made a foothold into their beliefs. What became of that? Only God knows, however to avoid those denominations is to avoid missionary work. And avoiding that means we have no idea if some of those people in those churches are or aren't trying to reform from the inside. But, from what I know, I see the cracks.

And those cracks are certainly not coming from those who will shun anyone from those beliefs. And Evil-Catholicism (aka Catholicism: 101, the Evilness of the RCC) is shunning without first finding out if the person being shunned fits into the stereotype. It's also a great way of avoiding telling the gospel.

Sorry I see Mormonism and Islam as mirror images of each other, they are so similar it's crazy, and besides that a false system is a false system, they all lead equally to death. There is only one way to salvation and that is Jesus Christ, the wrong Jesus=Hell. You can rank them if you want but to me a lie is a lie and truth is truth.

Also wanted to add that it's God that saves, He uses us and has told us through His word what we are to do. If we do what we're called to the rest is on Him alone. We are called to speak the truth in love, if we do that then there's no reason to worry about any of the other stuff like "what who did after whatever", that's not for us to worry about.

 

[cyberman]

yeah Cyberman,
I know all about all the problems.

I've spoken to about 3 priests I know personally and have suggested doing more teaching during the homily.
All 3 told me it's a Mass not a classroom. I understand what the Mass is, I know what they mean. But I've seen priests on EWTN do exactly what I have in mind and it doesn't interfere at all with the Mass.

Another idea would be to do the Mass a little faster, everything the same but say the prayers quicker, except at the Consecration of course, and then do just 10 MINUTES of catechism. I bet most would like to learn their faith and it might even get more people to go to Mass.

The problem is that folks won't go to bible study. I've heard that they don't understand why it's necessary.
So, they're just starting to explain why it's necessary.

Better late than never, right?

I do have to disagree with what the priests said to a point. Mass is certainly a classroom for the soul but the homily is not the central aspect of Catholic worship. I do not believe in saying the prayers faster. I think that reverence is lost in doing so. I do believe that the priests, at EWTN, celebrate a very reverential Mass.

 

[cyberman]

That's a problem. It's not about their/our faith. It's about God. The goal is Godward, not usward.

Hi Depleted.
I'm not sure what you mean by, "That's a problem." I totally agree that it is all about God but we also cannot throw our differences under a rug and pretend that they are not there. Catholic worship is very different from Protestant style of worship both intrinsically and extrinsically.
Blessings.

 

[WimpyPete]

The prodigal son is a son. If Joe Schmoe went running to that same prodigal father, (and, you'll be happy to know I do understand the word "prodigal" lol), Prodigal Dad is not fattening the lamb at the sight of Joe Schmoe in the distance. "Son" means something.

God did not bestow adoption on all. The story of prodicalness, (and yes, I also invent words when needed), was about the relationship between father and son. Both were lavish in their lifestyles. Only the son decided he could go it alone. It is a parable for the backsliders who ask themselves, "Will God forgive me for my stupidity again?"

YES! Because we are his adopted kids. We could always eat the fatted calf. The only ones who weren't eating it were the ones stupid enough to think they could handle it on their own.

Meanwhile, Joe Schmoe is hungry and down-and-out too and runs across the same Prodigal Dad. Since we both know who that Prodigal Dad is, what does he do for Joe? Well, Dad told what we should do, so he's doing the same thing. Joe will get a meal, and a place to sleep that night, if he isn't walking by so fast he doesn't give pause to enjoy them. And Joe can freely glean from the corners of the fields and orchards.

But Joe doesn't usually ask. Only in dying declarations will people ask God for what they need. And what they need isn't always what they need. They will cry out to God in pain, but they want God to fix the pain without touching them any other way. They want the "prodigal" without the commitment of "son." So they don't come to the Prodigal Dad. They come to the Magic Genie.

And "they" is "we." No one chooses God. We like the darkness. (John 3:16-21, special read on 18-20, and then 21 for what God does about 18-20.)

God chooses his adopted kids though. And once chosen, the light lets us see what a great Dad we have.

So you say, "Now of course this does not include people who would freely choose to reject Him and thereby condemn themselves by their own choice."

And I have to ask, "Then who is left?" You're right. We did condemn ourselves by our own choices.

I agree that we at, at times at least do turn from God or reject him; that is simply what a sin is. I guess I would see a difference though between someone who has hardened themselves in a permanent stance of rejection towards God, or, someone who refuses to ask for mercy. Someone who refuses to assume the role of an inferior. Someone who can't stand not being god himself. Thus a person in hell would not be someone simply who has sinned too much for God to forgive, but rather, someone who God longs to forgive but who refuses to accept the forgiveness.

It seems like from your examples that you are saying that persons who are not redeemed had a role in their own condemnation; that is, that they chose against God. If that is what you are saying then perhaps you don't believe in the kind of double predestination that I understand most Calvinist/Reformed to believe in. From what I understand of Calvin, it is not that certain people accept and others reject, but rather that certain people are not even given the opportunity to be saved. That God has created certain persons intending them to go to hell.

I think MatterofJesus listed some good verses against such a mentality.

So would you see a person who is condemned as someone who is condemned for his rejection of God, or are they condemned because of God's rejection of them?

This seems to be the dividing question

 

[garee]

The prodigal son is a son. If Joe Schmoe went running to that same prodigal father, (and, you'll be happy to know I do understand the word "prodigal" lol), Prodigal Dad is not fattening the lamb at the sight of Joe Schmoe in the distance. "Son" means something.

God did not bestow adoption on all. The story of prodicalness, (and yes, I also invent words when needed), was about the relationship between father and son. Both were lavish in their lifestyles. Only the son decided he could go it alone. It is a parable for the backsliders who ask themselves, "Will God forgive me for my stupidity again?"

YES! Because we are his adopted kids. We could always eat the fatted calf. The only ones who weren't eating it were the ones stupid enough to think they could handle it on their own.

Meanwhile, Joe Schmoe is hungry and down-and-out too and runs across the same Prodigal Dad. Since we both know who that Prodigal Dad is, what does he do for Joe? Well, Dad told what we should do, so he's doing the same thing. Joe will get a meal, and a place to sleep that night, if he isn't walking by so fast he doesn't give pause to enjoy them. And Joe can freely glean from the corners of the fields and orchards.

But Joe doesn't usually ask. Only in dying declarations will people ask God for what they need. And what they need isn't always what they need. They will cry out to God in pain, but they want God to fix the pain without touching them any other way. They want the "prodigal" without the commitment of "son." So they don't come to the Prodigal Dad. They come to the Magic Genie.

And "they" is "we." No one chooses God. We like the darkness. (John 3:16-21, special read on 18-20, and then 21 for what God does about 18-20.)

God chooses his adopted kids though. And once chosen, the light lets us see what a great Dad we have.

So you say, "Now of course this does not include people who would freely choose to reject Him and thereby condemn themselves by their own choice."

And I have to ask, "Then who is left?" You're right. We did condemn ourselves by our own choices.

If I could add. I would offer to be careful, the heading or titles are not inspired by God .Personally I see that parable as the “Waiting Father” . Making him prodigal would make him into a earthly father. I would think it is more toward our heavenly Father the faith principle. .

We call no man on earth father in that way, the Catholics who call a sinner like us Holy Father, our righteousness... show that kind of father as periodical with no father waiting for him but like the other example he never entered heaven
.

 

[FranC]

I do have to disagree with what the priests said to a point. Mass is certainly a classroom for the soul but the homily is not the central aspect of Catholic worship. I do not believe in saying the prayers faster. I think that reverence is lost in doing so. I do believe that the priests, at EWTN, celebrate a very reverential Mass.

I did read your post.

Some priests take almost 1 1/2 hours to do the Mass.
Most celebrate Mass in 45 to 60 minutes. One of my favorite priests does it in 45.

I only say this because I know what you mean about the reading of the prayers. They should not be rushed through.

However, If i had to choose between rushing through them a little and then get some catechism at the end of Mass

or

Saying them with reverence and then just dismissing the congregation --- I'd have to go with the catechism.

Some parishioners don't even know wha's going on at Mass. it's very beautiful to understand what is happening.

My main point is that if the priests at EWTN can do the homily AND get some teaching in there, WHY can't the CC do this at Sunday Mass?

I just think that something MUST change. Catholics need to kinow their faith more.

 

[Zen]

2 Catholics came around to my home handing out these, and little talismans.

 

[Willie-T]

2 Catholics came around to my home handing out these, and little talismans.

Sadly, that term fits them and the way they are used, exactly.

 

[notuptome]

I did read your post.

Some priests take almost 1 1/2 hours to do the Mass.
Most celebrate Mass in 45 to 60 minutes. One of my favorite priests does it in 45.

I only say this because I know what you mean about the reading of the prayers. They should not be rushed through.

However, If i had to choose between rushing through them a little and then get some catechism at the end of Mass

or

Saying them with reverence and then just dismissing the congregation --- I'd have to go with the catechism.

Some parishioners don't even know wha's going on at Mass. it's very beautiful to understand what is happening.

My main point is that if the priests at EWTN can do the homily AND get some teaching in there, WHY can't the CC do this at Sunday Mass?

I just think that something MUST change. Catholics need to kinow their faith more.

A re-crucifixion of Christ? Puts Christ to open shame.

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You take the mass too lightly and fail to comprehend its intent.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Willie-T]

I did read your post.

Some priests take almost 1 1/2 hours to do the Mass.
Most celebrate Mass in 45 to 60 minutes. One of my favorite priests does it in 45.

I only say this because I know what you mean about the reading of the prayers. They should not be rushed through.

However, If i had to choose between rushing through them a little and then get some catechism at the end of Mass

or

Saying them with reverence and then just dismissing the congregation --- I'd have to go with the catechism.

Some parishioners don't even know wha's going on at Mass. it's very beautiful to understand what is happening.

My main point is that if the priests at EWTN can do the homily AND get some teaching in there, WHY can't the CC do this at Sunday Mass?

I just think that something MUST change. Catholics need to kinow their faith more.

I do have a serious question, Fran. Why is it deemed necessary to READ prayers from a book?

 

[royalscot]

do both, religion believe in jesus christ.

if you have a personal, relationship with a saviour, i would spend more time , to understand more ,about what, that saviour done for you. that looking at a religion , bible proof, is it only for religions.

 

[FranC]

2 Catholics came around to my home handing out these, and little talismans.

When?

if recently, I'd be very surprised.

 

[FranC]

Sadly, that term fits them and the way they are used, exactly.

You know Willie,

I even wonder if this was sanctioned by the Church.

I wanted to do something similar some years ago but with the bible and maybe do some bible teaching for those who were afraid to come to my house, even though I told everyone I had the permission of the priest.

He said NO!. He said this is not done. Maybe it depends on the Parish, I don't know.

Those reading along may be confused as to why I'm Protestant but do a lot in the Catholic Church.
I can't help it and can't take the time to explain it.

 

[FranC]

A re-crucifixion of Christ? Puts Christ to open shame.

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You take the mass too lightly and fail to comprehend its intent.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Really?

I DO hate to bring this up but sometimes I can't help it.

I TAUGHT THE MASS.

Do you know what Mass means?
Do you know what Eucharist means?
Do you know the 4 parts of the Mass?

Please don't say things like that to someone you don't even know.

 

[FranC]

I do have a serious question, Fran. Why is it deemed necessary to READ prayers from a book?

The older generation was taught this.
They say certain prayers in the morning and some in the late afternoon.
I've attended some of these prayer times. I can't remember what they're called.

What they do is use the Psalms. A different one each day. Half of the people will say some parts, and the other half the other parts. It gives a feeling of community and is very nice. Also, the Psalms can be learned this way.

They also use formal prayers. Some will pray as we do, but not too many unless they have something to ask and it's not in a book.

There are prayers for everything, Weddings, funerals, communions, special days like Corpus Domini, etc.

I think any kind of prayer is good. If they want to use a book, let them use a book.
I like to just talk to God as if He were there with me.

P.S. By "they" about the Group praying, I mean priests, nuns, and sometimes the lay people are welcomed to, as I've been.

 

[Zen]

When?

if recently, I'd be very surprised.

A few days ago.

 

[notuptome]

Really?

I DO hate to bring this up but sometimes I can't help it.

I TAUGHT THE MASS.

Do you know what Mass means?
Do you know what Eucharist means?
Do you know the 4 parts of the Mass?

Please don't say things like that to someone you don't even know.

It's not you but the church that has created this heretical doctrine of the mass.

It is a re-crucifixion of Christ. Rome teaches transubstantiation so yes I do know. I understand the concept of the "real presence" of Christ in the mass. I also have noticed that the catholic church has never taken Jesus off the cross. He is not still nailed to the cross. Jesus has risen and is seated in heaven at the right hand of the Father.

You taught what you were taught but you were not taught correct bible doctrine.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Willie-T]

The older generation was taught this.
They say certain prayers in the morning and some in the late afternoon.
I've attended some of these prayer times. I can't remember what they're called.

What they do is use the Psalms. A different one each day. Half of the people will say some parts, and the other half the other parts. It gives a feeling of community and is very nice. Also, the Psalms can be learned this way.

They also use formal prayers. Some will pray as we do, but not too many unless they have something to ask and it's not in a book.

There are prayers for everything, Weddings, funerals, communions, special days like Corpus Domini, etc.

I think any kind of prayer is good. If they want to use a book, let them use a book.
I like to just talk to God as if He were there with me.

P.S. By "they" about the Group praying, I mean priests, nuns, and sometimes the lay people are welcomed to, as I've been.

I've been to Liturgical churches where we got up and spent five minutes greeting one another with some specific phrase we were told to say... and the person greeted was supposed to reply with some other canned statement. I never felt so Phony and Foolish, and I am sure I upset a lot of people by just saying what was on my heart.

 

[FranC]

A few days ago.

Yes. Listen. There are different "groups" within the Catholic Church.
For instance, one would be Opus Dei. It was spoken of, incorrectly, in that dumb book The DaVinci Code.
I could ALMOST guarantee that it was a bunch of older ladies and they decided to do this.
Maybe even on their own --- who could know for sure. If I lived there, I'd go ask the priest if he gave permission for this.
I DON'T THINK SO.
I said THINK.

 

[FranC]

I've been to Liturgical churches where we got up and spent five minutes greeting one another with some specific phrase we were told to say... and the person greeted was supposed to reply with some other canned statement. I never felt so Phony and Foolish, and I am sure I upset a lot of people by just saying what was on my heart.

I agree.

At the Mass there is a time when the peace sign is given by the priest and then everyone shakes the hand of those around them and says "peace" or "peace be with you" I like to say "peace in Christ". you can say anything or nothing. This is nice.
Sometimes in Protestant services, the pastor will say to greet the person next to you.

What you had to do is what I call "religion". Religion is difficult to explain since every Church does something or other that can be considered religion. It's useless.

IJ'd like to tell you this:

About two Sundays ago, a priest (not near me) said in his homily that it's not enough TO BE A GOOD PERSON,
he said that a person needs to KNOW JESUS ON A PERSONAL LEVEL.

Now, THIS is what I hear in sermons and where I see the Church going. It's getting some resistance however.
We need to pray for the new generation that they can understand these concepts.

I was at a bible study a few months ago (Catholic, a deacon friend of mine) when I mentioned about how works do not SAVE.

They just have a difficult time understanding this. The women were older women. So the Deacon read Galatians 2:16.
Here it is..

Galatians 2:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Nice?