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W
Hey Huckleberry,
Sorry that I have not gotten back to you, but I just don't have time to delve into every debate that has been going on.
In regards to your question though, I think my last post about the difference between the general Protestant view of salvation as extrinsic imputed justification verses the Catholic view of salvation as beginning with justification but being complete only in sanctification is relavent here.
If I were to answer your question directly I would say, I don't think the Bible necessaarily promises us absolute assurance. It is true for instance that passages such as 1 John 5:13 speak of "knowing" that we have eternal life, but I don't know that we should take that to mean we have a guarantee beyond all doubt. I think it has to be interpreted alongside other passages such as "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but He that does the will of my Father" (Matt. 7:21), or the last judgment scene in Matt. 25:31-45 when both the saved and the condemned are surprised by the judgment they receive.
I think taking a position like St. Paul seems most reasonable and saying that "in hope we are saved" (Rom 8:24). Meaning, yes we trust greatly in God's love for us and His abundant mercy. But we also continue to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12).
The dividing line comes down to a fundamental difference in our understanding of salvation. I think you worry that if I say I don't have absolute assurance it means I am somehow doubting Christ's work as my savior. But I think the reason Paul could say something like, "I control my body, and bring it into subjection, least that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" (1 Cor 9:27), because He realizes that although Christ is perfect in His mercy and redemption, I still have a role in accepting it and conforming my life to the cross and resurrection of Christ. Hence my above quote, it is not just saying "Lord Lord", but also, with His grace, doing "the will of the Father".
So my unwillingness to say that I have absolute certainty is because I know that it is possible that in my weakness I could deny the Lord's mercy or fail to do His will. Again, that doesn't mean I don't live with confidence, but it is a confidence of Hope that God's goodness will sustain me beyond my own weaknesses, but not the assurance that says I might never turn away from Him.
I hope that answers your questions somewhat
Yep it is in the revelation
He will be a religious leader because rev said every body will worship him, worship, talking about religion, also have political power, rev said he will have great power to all nation
Imagine, it must be came from big religion
look like pope is strong candidate
vatican is country, so pope is politic leader. And religious leader
He will be a religious leader because rev said every body will worship him, worship, talking about religion, also have political power, rev said he will have great power to all nation
Imagine, it must be came from big religion
look like pope is strong candidate
vatican is country, so pope is politic leader. And religious leader
I just want to say:
We were saved
We are being saved
We will be saved
Re Justification
Protestants believe what Catholics believe.
Justification and Sanctification
Catholics call it: Justification and Progressive Justification
It's the same thing.
P.J. or Sanctfcn is the same, it's a combined effort; a cooperative work between God and man.
It's just that some don't like to acknowledge this because they want to believe that Jesus does everything for us, even every listtle thing in every day life. This is hyper-grace. Many protestant churches re getting rich teaching this because it's such a comfortable teaching. It takes all responsibility for sin away from man. It sounds like you might know about this.
Regarding salvation...
When I've spoken to different priests, incl one that's a theolgian, they do tell me that we can be sure of our salvation at THIS MOMENT, if we remain in the Lord, as you stated ---- and at the foot of the cross. Trusting in Jesus for our salvation.
We were saved
We are being saved
We will be saved
Re Justification
Protestants believe what Catholics believe.
Justification and Sanctification
Catholics call it: Justification and Progressive Justification
It's the same thing.
P.J. or Sanctfcn is the same, it's a combined effort; a cooperative work between God and man.
It's just that some don't like to acknowledge this because they want to believe that Jesus does everything for us, even every listtle thing in every day life. This is hyper-grace. Many protestant churches re getting rich teaching this because it's such a comfortable teaching. It takes all responsibility for sin away from man. It sounds like you might know about this.
Regarding salvation...
When I've spoken to different priests, incl one that's a theolgian, they do tell me that we can be sure of our salvation at THIS MOMENT, if we remain in the Lord, as you stated ---- and at the foot of the cross. Trusting in Jesus for our salvation.
I never heard Mohammad claim to be Christian at all
went out from Christian mean at least ever claim to be Christian than out
You said Mohammad is not the antichrist,
do you believe the antichrist from modern moslim?
modern moslim never claim to be Christian at all
catholic claim to be Christian but not, Christian do not believe Mary able to hear millions people pray to or make pray request to her
christian do not believe Mary able to come to you and intruct you to give a Russia to her
it is demonic
Christian not support one world government, catholic do
went out from Christian mean at least ever claim to be Christian than out
You said Mohammad is not the antichrist,
do you believe the antichrist from modern moslim?
modern moslim never claim to be Christian at all
catholic claim to be Christian but not, Christian do not believe Mary able to hear millions people pray to or make pray request to her
christian do not believe Mary able to come to you and intruct you to give a Russia to her
it is demonic
Christian not support one world government, catholic do
With incorrect doctrine.
The selling of indulgences.
The selling of forgiveness of sins for the dead.
Corruption while in power with the governments of Europe.
Taxing poor people.
But two wrongs never made a right.
And if we're going to be very tough on the CC then we should be with
hyper grace and W of F churches. They do NOT teach correct doctrine either.
The selling of indulgences.
The selling of forgiveness of sins for the dead.
Corruption while in power with the governments of Europe.
Taxing poor people.
But two wrongs never made a right.
And if we're going to be very tough on the CC then we should be with
hyper grace and W of F churches. They do NOT teach correct doctrine either.
W
Maybe a follow up also that could shed more light on the question.
I think we first need to clarify what we actually believe a person is.
Do you believe that we were created with an intellect and a free will and that we have responsibility as moral agents?
Then we have to ask the question, what is God's ultimate purpose for us? What will our life be in heaven?
As Catholics, we understand being made in the Image and likeness of God to mean that God has made us to share in His own life. That we are destined to "be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect", and that Christ is making us into a "spotless bride" so as to share in an intimate union of love with Him in the wedding feast of the lamb. But all of that presupposes that we are free moral agents capable of personal communion. As Catholics we believe that our intellect and will are damaged by the fall, but that grace both heals as well as uplifts or glorifies our human faculties so as to make us, at least in the end, after this life, capable of full communion in the divine life of charity. This is what we think it means to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pet 1:3-4). So yes Christ has redeemed us by His cross/resurrection, but He also commands us to carry our cross after Him daily. And as I have already reference in Collasians, Paul speaks of needing to "make up what is lacking" in Christ's sacrifice, meaning allowing it to be fully applied to him so as to be totally sanctified.
In short, because we believe God wants personal communion with us, we believe that this requires our personal choice and grace assisted co-operation in the matter.
So my question for you would be what role does the human will and co-operation play in salvation and our life in heaven for you?
I think we first need to clarify what we actually believe a person is.
Do you believe that we were created with an intellect and a free will and that we have responsibility as moral agents?
Then we have to ask the question, what is God's ultimate purpose for us? What will our life be in heaven?
As Catholics, we understand being made in the Image and likeness of God to mean that God has made us to share in His own life. That we are destined to "be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect", and that Christ is making us into a "spotless bride" so as to share in an intimate union of love with Him in the wedding feast of the lamb. But all of that presupposes that we are free moral agents capable of personal communion. As Catholics we believe that our intellect and will are damaged by the fall, but that grace both heals as well as uplifts or glorifies our human faculties so as to make us, at least in the end, after this life, capable of full communion in the divine life of charity. This is what we think it means to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pet 1:3-4). So yes Christ has redeemed us by His cross/resurrection, but He also commands us to carry our cross after Him daily. And as I have already reference in Collasians, Paul speaks of needing to "make up what is lacking" in Christ's sacrifice, meaning allowing it to be fully applied to him so as to be totally sanctified.
In short, because we believe God wants personal communion with us, we believe that this requires our personal choice and grace assisted co-operation in the matter.
So my question for you would be what role does the human will and co-operation play in salvation and our life in heaven for you?
do you remember view years ago when moslim mad because people make a picture of Mohammad?
muslim did not want people see what Mohammad look like
Moslim did not make a picture of God as well Even Mohammad never meet God, islam believe if God want to talk to Mohammad, God sent Gibrael, an angel
Bible said Antichrist will occupy temple in Jerusalem, claim to be God
that mean people will able to see God
this is again their teaching
muslim did not want people see what Mohammad look like
Moslim did not make a picture of God as well Even Mohammad never meet God, islam believe if God want to talk to Mohammad, God sent Gibrael, an angel
Bible said Antichrist will occupy temple in Jerusalem, claim to be God
that mean people will able to see God
this is again their teaching
How anyone could ask what you believe saves a person after this post is a mystery to me...
However,
Could you elaborate on your understanding of Colossian 1:24 ?
Here's mine:
Paul is writing from prison (Rome?, can't remember)
He is suffering as Christ suffered. Not only for being in prison, but sadness for the world situation in general.
The Church was also suffering because of persecution.
Paul is happy to take on his share of this suffering
Maybe it's God's way of allowing Paul to serve believers. (verse 1:25)
There are some verses I Always have a little problem with.
This is one...
However,
Could you elaborate on your understanding of Colossian 1:24 ?
Here's mine:
Paul is writing from prison (Rome?, can't remember)
He is suffering as Christ suffered. Not only for being in prison, but sadness for the world situation in general.
The Church was also suffering because of persecution.
Paul is happy to take on his share of this suffering
Maybe it's God's way of allowing Paul to serve believers. (verse 1:25)
There are some verses I Always have a little problem with.
This is one...
W
I think I have touched on this already a bit in various posts, but the Scriptures seem to speak of various things. It requires believing, as Paul talks about in Romans, particularly in Ch. 4. Peter tells us to be Baptized in accordance with the great comission Christ gave and Peter repeats in Acts 2:38. Jesus also tells the man who asks him this question to keep the commandments (Luke 18:18ff). Paul seems to affirm that this is also necessaary when he speaks in the negative of the things which would prevent one from obtaining unto life such as adultery etc (1 Cor. 6:9). John 6:53 would seem to indicate the eating of Christ's body and blood as a necessity for having life. Luke 14:33 would seem to indicate that I have to prefer Christ to all things in order to truly be His disciple. Mark 8 and Luke 9 seem to indicate the necessity of carrying one's cross as well. Apparently from Matthews judgement scene we also have to care for the poor and hungry etc (Matt. 25).
I'm sure more could be added to this brief list, but my only point is that salvation in Scripture seems to a multivalent reality which avoids an easy oversimplification. I think it does seem that given what we know of Christ from the Gospels and the way He treats sinners the hope is that out of His infinite love for us He will never refuse us if we truly desire Him and ask His mercy. That's where I think the good thief is a good example. He couldn't get baptized or eat Christ's flesh in that moment, or commit adultery for that matter (in his heart he could I guess), but it shows that God is not necessarily limited in His ability to save us, and that a true repentant heart, which God can't spurn (Psalm 51:17), we hope would be enough if that is all we are capable of. But if we do have opportunities for baptism or to carry our cross or feed the hungry etc and we don't do them, is our "faith" at that point enough to "save" us? That seems hard to say given passages such as Matthew's judgment or Luke 13:26 etc
So to summarize I think the ideal sequence is: believe and ask for mercy, if possible be baptized and then live the Christian life.
I'm sure more could be added to this brief list, but my only point is that salvation in Scripture seems to a multivalent reality which avoids an easy oversimplification. I think it does seem that given what we know of Christ from the Gospels and the way He treats sinners the hope is that out of His infinite love for us He will never refuse us if we truly desire Him and ask His mercy. That's where I think the good thief is a good example. He couldn't get baptized or eat Christ's flesh in that moment, or commit adultery for that matter (in his heart he could I guess), but it shows that God is not necessarily limited in His ability to save us, and that a true repentant heart, which God can't spurn (Psalm 51:17), we hope would be enough if that is all we are capable of. But if we do have opportunities for baptism or to carry our cross or feed the hungry etc and we don't do them, is our "faith" at that point enough to "save" us? That seems hard to say given passages such as Matthew's judgment or Luke 13:26 etc
So to summarize I think the ideal sequence is: believe and ask for mercy, if possible be baptized and then live the Christian life.
W
Yeah it is certainly a mysterious verse, and really I would have to look at it in greater depth to really give a good answer to that question Fran, but the reason I mentioned it is because it shows that Paul seems to understand that "Christ's sufferings" still have more to accomplish in the world; something like the cure has been given but it has not yet taken its full effect in the world.
Again I would need to research a bit more, but from what I understand the Church usually sees it in the context of Christ's call to us to carry our crosses after Him, and the Churches role in being an instrument of new creation in the world (NT Wright is great here I think). That part of the way that the resurrection and new creation happen is that Christians participate in Christ's work of transforming evil into good; of making occasions of persecution etc into occasions of mercy and charity.
So I think I agree with what you said, Paul is suffering as Christ suffered, but also he claims to be doing it "for the sake of the Church". We thus see Christ's cross not just as an event that is over and done with but rather an instrument of transformation in the world, and that as Christians who are baptized into Christ's death and resurrection, and united to Him as members of His body, we too have been given the grace to share in this transformation in our own crosses or sufferings.
I think St. John Paul II expounds on this a lot in his letters "Salvifici Doloris" (available onlilne), about redemptive suffering. He he actually begins the work by citing this verse. The letter as a whole is a beautiful reflection of finding meaning in suffering, it is worth looking at.
I hope that makes some sense
Again I would need to research a bit more, but from what I understand the Church usually sees it in the context of Christ's call to us to carry our crosses after Him, and the Churches role in being an instrument of new creation in the world (NT Wright is great here I think). That part of the way that the resurrection and new creation happen is that Christians participate in Christ's work of transforming evil into good; of making occasions of persecution etc into occasions of mercy and charity.
So I think I agree with what you said, Paul is suffering as Christ suffered, but also he claims to be doing it "for the sake of the Church". We thus see Christ's cross not just as an event that is over and done with but rather an instrument of transformation in the world, and that as Christians who are baptized into Christ's death and resurrection, and united to Him as members of His body, we too have been given the grace to share in this transformation in our own crosses or sufferings.
I think St. John Paul II expounds on this a lot in his letters "Salvifici Doloris" (available onlilne), about redemptive suffering. He he actually begins the work by citing this verse. The letter as a whole is a beautiful reflection of finding meaning in suffering, it is worth looking at.
I hope that makes some sense
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