Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

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Apr 30, 2016
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#21
I appreciate those who are trying to actually engage these questions and have a discussion. For the others, I don't understand why as soon as you hear the word Catholic you have to start screaming about Mary and the Pope and the evil deceiving church.


I assume that people on this forum are devoted Christians and have a real love for the Lord. I assume that you love and read the Bible. I don't know why you can't believe the same for Catholics and realize that we are simply dealing with different interpretations of the Bible.


That being said, I think the topic I am proposing is a simple and narrow one. It hinges on if salvation is by grace alone or if co-operation is required. My question is, if salvation does not allow for our co-operation (through grace), then how does it not result in predestination where God damns certain people to hell with no chance of salvation.
Salvation hinges on cooperation.

Catholicism teaches Justification and Ongoing Justification. It can also be called Sanctifying Grace.

I do like how Protestantism divides the two concepts...

JUSTIFICATION and
SANCTIFICATION

Justification is by grace alone.
Ephesians 2:8

Sancstification is an ongoing process which requires the cooperation of man.
CCC paragraph no. 1993.

Salvation happens at Justifiction.

Some protestants do not like to talk about Sanctification because they do not like the idea that man has to WORK to keep his salvation. This is incorrect even in protestantism and is a result of the hyper grace movement.
 
Apr 30, 2016
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#22
Hey, Bug. Believe me, no fruit loop or weirdo could have answered that question as clearly and accurately as you just did.
How do you figure that it helped the O.P. ????

No reply necessary.
Just saying...
 
Apr 30, 2016
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#23
Get ready to receive a bunch of different answers!

Short and sweet: protestants protest the authority and position of the Pope
Even though EVERY PROTESTANT CHURCH has an authority figure.

Who do people think made up the doctrine of any Church?
THE AUTHORITY FIGURE/S.

I'd like to see any mainline Church get along without one !!
 
Apr 30, 2016
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#24
I am sorry some people get heated, and in such is reflected in what they write.

It is just that, in the Catholic Bible there are 2 more added books.

They also teach to pray to Mary and the Saints.

As I tell my Catholic family members...

"I don't need an operator to call upon the Lord... I have a direct line."

The Lord is the only way.. not Idols of him and Mary...

It is a personal relationship with only God the Father, God Our Lord Jesus Christ and God the Holy Spirit...
Which none would be Possible with out Our Saviour.

As for help with your Question wish I could shed some light... But I do not see myself as any denomination
But a Born again, living under thanksgiving of Grace.

I do believe and know God knew us before he knit us....
So he knew I would partake in the cup and believe, proclaim Jesus as my Lord and Saviour.

Does that make it predestined... :)
There are 7 books added to the Catholic bible.

They're not supposed to pray TO Mary or the saints.

Tkey know the Lord is the only way.
Not all of them know their faith, just like not all Protestants know their faith.

God KNEW that you would choose to be saved and predestined you to be like His Son.
Romans 8:29 is incorrectly used to support double predestination, which is NOT biblical.

Calvin, double predestination, teaches that GOD chose WHO WOULD BE SAVED and go to heaven,
AND WHO WOULD BE LOST and go to hell.

If anyone wants to serve THAT GOD, they can...

But HE is not the God of the bible I read...
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#25
Hello, I am a Catholic, I come in peace simply seeking understand Protestant thought a bit more from Protestants themselves.

This is what I understand of Protestant anthropology and soteriology, at least according to the primary reformers i.e. Luther and Calvin. Please let me know if I am correct:

The original sin of Adam and Eve destroyed the goodness of man's nature and thereby destroyed the ability of his reason to know God or supernatural things, and also destroyed the freedom of his will thereby rendering him incapable of free moral actions.

Because of man's total depravity of mind/will he is unable to participate in any way in his salvation and thus salvation is a matter of grace alone.

Now the consequence of this which Luther never seems to deny and Calvin affirms outright is that because salvation is by grace ALONE then the difference between those who are saved and those who are damned depends not on human responsibility but on God, hence Calvin's doctrine of predestination.

My first question is, have I understood this correctly?

Secondly my question is this: How does such a theory avoid altering radically both God and man in such a way that God seems to be unavoidably monsterous for creating people who have absolutelly no chance of salvation, and man seems to no longer be a responsible moral agent since he can neither know the good nor does he have any power (even assisted by grace) to co-operate in doing good? If man does not even have the power to co-operate how can we speak of him as a responsible moral agent? And if God, as Calvin insists, is ultimately the only agent in human actions, how is it that man and not God is responsible for sin?

If someone can please help me to understand better I would appreciate it, thanks


To your first question,some believe this. Some here would be Calvinist or Reformed and they can better explain what they believe. But not all Protestants believe this way. It comes down to free choice,well somewhat.lol Depends on who you talk to.


This sentence "The original sin of Adam and Eve destroyed the goodness of man's nature and thereby destroyed the ability of his reason to know God or supernatural things, and also destroyed the freedom of his will thereby rendering him incapable of free moral actions. " this would lean more toward Calvinism. I personally do not believe this way.
 
N

NoNameMcgee

Guest
#26
I must say I am somewhat surprised by the lack of charity as well as the inability to actually stay focused on the narrow question which I posed. If people aren't interested in having a charitable and rational conversation devoid of random accusations and adhominim's against my faith then I will take my questions elsewhere.

I think we all should at least agree that Christ in His prayer in the garden in John clearly expresses a desire for His people to be One as He and the Father are One. I am interested in working towards that goal which is why I a seeking to know more about Protestant faith, but you will not assist me or Jesus if you can do no more than slam me and my faith with harsh criticism's.
sorry

i only read your first line


im at work

ill give my full perspective later i promise


i dont claim to be protestant either

i just know the catholic doctrine is false

and i listed some key points
 

Zen

Senior Member
Sep 11, 2015
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#27
I don't know why you can't believe the same for Catholics and realize that we are simply dealing with different interpretations of the Bible.
How can a person deconstruct your closely-held religion, without you being offended? How can you be shown that your view is wrong without you thinking that I'm insulting you?

*THIS IS NOT AN INSULT*

Catholicism is a religion that creates doctrines of men or things not from God, and the followers trust in the authority of men.

You interpret the bible to mean that a pope gives you orders, and is infallible and you obey the pope to get to heaven?

I've seen plenty of Catholics say they dislike the current pope and they have converted to orthodox or 'protestantism'.

If the pope is infallible, why didn't God make other people infallible? Israel, Moses, David, Solomon, the apostles - why were these people not given infallibility? When the apostles argued against each other, were both sides infallible?

Here's the scripture regarding God's church:

Ephesians 2:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

[SUP]20 [/SUP]And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

[SUP]21 [/SUP]In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

If you need a pope to tell you what this means, fair enough. Please note "Through him" means Lord Jesus, not a pope.

God didn't say "On you Peter I build the Catholic church, and you will go to Rome and change the days and seasons and change the sabbath to Sunday and persecute any Christian who keeps the sabbath, and also you will build a massive church made from the finest marble and gold and fill it with idols and icons, and also teach people to pray with heathen prayer beads and call my mother Queen of heaven".

*THIS IS NOT AN INSULT*

The apostles didn't care about wearing the finest clothes, or gold, or marble, their treasure was God's grace and living for Him.

The original sin of Adam and Eve destroyed the goodness of man's nature and thereby destroyed the ability of his reason to know God or supernatural things, and also destroyed the freedom of his will thereby rendering him incapable of free moral actions.
Is this the reason why you are told that you need a priest to communicate with God on your behalf? Because you are incapable of knowing God?
 

SAS

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2014
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#28
There are 7 books added to the Catholic bible.

They're not supposed to pray TO Mary or the saints.

Tkey know the Lord is the only way.
Not all of them know their faith, just like not all Protestants know their faith.

God KNEW that you would choose to be saved and predestined you to be like His Son.
Romans 8:29 is incorrectly used to support double predestination, which is NOT biblical.

Calvin, double predestination, teaches that GOD chose WHO WOULD BE SAVED and go to heaven,
AND WHO WOULD BE LOST and go to hell.

If anyone wants to serve THAT GOD, they can...

But HE is not the God of the bible I read...

My bad multiple add books.
Sorry :)

And I agree,
except for the Calvin part..
I don't know about denominations.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#29
MAN is not responsible for the sin in the world, the devil is.
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-- Humanity and all of creation fell because of Adam's disobedience, and if we remain in Adam we will pay the ultimate price in the second death.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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#30
I must say I am somewhat surprised by the lack of charity as well as the inability to actually stay focused on the narrow question which I posed. If people aren't interested in having a charitable and rational conversation devoid of random accusations and adhominim's against my faith then I will take my questions elsewhere.

I think we all should at least agree that Christ in His prayer in the garden in John clearly expresses a desire for His people to be One as He and the Father are One. I am interested in working towards that goal which is why I a seeking to know more about Protestant faith, but you will not assist me or Jesus if you can do no more than slam me and my faith with harsh criticism's.
One of the biggest problems I see with your OP personally, is thinking that Luther and Calvin are the only 2 opinions we have to believe in. Another HUGE problem I noticed is you seem to think we have to follow what men say. I follow Jesus and the MAIN thing about being a Christian, in my understanding and experience, is the gap and separation from God as a result of original sin was bridged by Jesus work on the cross, that is how we are forgiven and indwelt by His Spirit. I have 2 questions for you, if you really want a conversation. #1 How is one saved? #2 What exactly do you think makes one a Christian?
 
Apr 30, 2016
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#31
My bad multiple add books.
Sorry :)

And I agree,
except for the Calvin part..
I don't know about denominations.
Do you believe Calvin is correct?
I'm sorry, I didn't understand you...

I love all my brothers and sisters in the Lord, even the ones I don't agree with,
but I think Calvin got it all wrong...
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#32
Hello, I am a Catholic, I come in peace simply seeking understand Protestant thought a bit more from Protestants themselves.

Because of man's total depravity of mind/will he is unable to participate in any way in his salvation and thus salvation is a matter of grace alone.
God does make it possible for us to respond to Him. Otherwise we are separated from Him by the veil of sin, our rebellion against Him, our spiritual inability to comprehend the things of God. In my view, once we have been prepared to accept God, and His plan for humanity, by God revealing Himself to us through the love and forgiveness He extends through the shedding of Christ's righteous blood on the cross, for the removal of sin that we may be reconciled to God, it is then incumbent upon us to lay down our opposition to Him. Some are not aware of moving through this process and others are deeply impressed with the transformation that takes place over time as awareness and understanding change due to the drawing of God and our surrender to His will.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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#33
Sin entered the world via the serpent, who tempted Adam and Eve to sin.. Then their sin got passed on to the rest of the world..

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-- Humanity and all of creation fell because of Adam's disobedience, and if we remain in Adam we will pay the ultimate price in the second death.
 
W

WingsOfFidelity

Guest
#34
Hello, I am a Catholic, I come in peace simply seeking understand Protestant thought a bit more from Protestants themselves.
Welcome! I hope you find some good answers here. Though as you have already seen you may have to look past some people here as any other forum. People are people and some have not overcome their nature of the flesh yet.


This is what I understand of Protestant anthropology and soteriology, at least according to the primary reformers i.e. Luther and Calvin. Please let me know if I am correct:


The original sin of Adam and Eve destroyed the goodness of man's nature and thereby destroyed the ability of his reason to know God or supernatural things, and also destroyed the freedom of his will thereby rendering him incapable of free moral actions.

You are close. I've never heard it said quite like that before though. I believe that when Adam sinned it caused us all to be dead in sin. Adam didn't physically die when he sinned. Instead he die spiritually and so we are dead spiritually.


Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Because of man's total depravity of mind/will he is unable to participate in any way in his salvation and thus salvation is a matter of grace alone.

This is correct. Because man is dead in sin he can not choose the things of God. A dead man can not choose to get up and walk. A dead man can not hear. Something has to happen in order to change the nature of a dead man first. the event where Jesus brought Lazarus back to life was an example of this. Lazarus was dead, a corps. He could not hear, nor get up and walk on his own accord. Something had to happen first to make him able. God's grace is what makes us able to choose to believe and fallow Christ.


Now the consequence of this which Luther never seems to deny and Calvin affirms outright is that because salvation is by grace ALONE then the difference between those who are saved and those who are damned depends not on human responsibility but on God, hence Calvin's doctrine of predestination.


My first question is, have I understood this correctly?

This is where many people have very different views. Some believe we still have free will, as others do not. I am one who does not believe we have free will before the Lord first does a work in us through grace. So you will get many, many responses concerning free will.


Secondly my question is this: How does such a theory avoid altering radically both God and man in such a way that God seems to be unavoidably monsterous for creating people who have absolutelly no chance of salvation, and man seems to no longer be a responsible moral agent since he can neither know the good nor does he have any power (even assisted by grace) to co-operate in doing good? If man does not even have the power to co-operate how can we speak of him as a responsible moral agent? And if God, as Calvin insists, is ultimately the only agent in human actions, how is it that man and not God is responsible for sin?


If someone can please help me to understand better I would appreciate it, thanks

This is probably why you are getting the types of answers you are getting. However I do understand why you have put it this way. I will post a few verses that helped me with this same question. Though I sometimes still stumble on this one myself at times.


Rom 9:13-24/KJV
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#35
Sin entered the world via the serpent, who tempted Adam and Eve to sin.. Then their sin got passed on to the rest of the world..
Scripture says sin entered the world through one man.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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#36
True, AFTER the serpent tempted him to sin.. so technically, since God allowed sin not only in heaven but also in the garden, sin entered via the serpent, and only came through Adam AFTER he sinned. :)


Scripture says sin entered the world through one man.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#37
Eve was tempted and deceived by Satan, and Adam ate after listening to his wife. Adam directly disobeyed and his sin caused the fall of all creation. We are born into Adam, into the flesh, separated from God, in need of Spiritual regeneration by being born again of the Spirit and reconciled to God. Otherwise we will pass into the second death following the resurrection and judgment of all, for the flesh counts for nothing.
 

maverich

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2017
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#38
its enough to confuse anyone wouldn't you agree, i took the chicken way out! i begged God to kill me. Why you may ask? for the simple reason, of the conflicting statements,. who do you believe. Most religions, are Catholic light. they have taken the word control, and made it what people will except.

from 1993 through 2013 i was a rabid fan of the church. it seemed the more i grew in knowledge the less sure i was of my salvation. I was tired and weary of trying to follow all the rules, in anger i asked God to kill me. I quit trying to be what i am not. I am a human being. being, is the operative word. I Am who he created me to be. when i rested he pruned, when i strived, no contact.

Maybe i am more blessed, i doubt it. I think we are so busy being good, that we don't have time to hear Jesus. He said and I Quote " Labor to enter my rest"

to summarize believe on the Lord Jesus.
take the time to read the words Jesus spoke. labor only for his rest. don't labor for man, because mans standards you will always have more to do.
cast this burden you carry on Jesus, find a scripture and meditate on it. Let the Holy spirit teach you.
Here is one that i pondered for 3 months before he gave me the answer
why did Jesus have to be born of a virgin.
Adam and eve were covered with the skins of animals. all of us are born covered, with the skins of animals covering us. else we would all die immediately, by God's word " You will surely die" Jesus had to pass through the blood to get to us. Hence the virgin birth
May God bless you in you endeavors
 
W

WingsOfFidelity

Guest
#39
sorry

i only read your first line


im at work

ill give my full perspective later i promise


i dont claim to be protestant either

i just know the catholic doctrine is false

and i listed some key points
Why respond to a post that you only read the first line of?