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Thread: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

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    Default Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

    Hello, I am a Catholic, I come in peace simply seeking understand Protestant thought a bit more from Protestants themselves.

    This is what I understand of Protestant anthropology and soteriology, at least according to the primary reformers i.e. Luther and Calvin. Please let me know if I am correct:

    The original sin of Adam and Eve destroyed the goodness of man's nature and thereby destroyed the ability of his reason to know God or supernatural things, and also destroyed the freedom of his will thereby rendering him incapable of free moral actions.

    Because of man's total depravity of mind/will he is unable to participate in any way in his salvation and thus salvation is a matter of grace alone.

    Now the consequence of this which Luther never seems to deny and Calvin affirms outright is that because salvation is by grace ALONE then the difference between those who are saved and those who are damned depends not on human responsibility but on God, hence Calvin's doctrine of predestination.

    My first question is, have I understood this correctly?

    Secondly my question is this: How does such a theory avoid altering radically both God and man in such a way that God seems to be unavoidably monsterous for creating people who have absolutelly no chance of salvation, and man seems to no longer be a responsible moral agent since he can neither know the good nor does he have any power (even assisted by grace) to co-operate in doing good? If man does not even have the power to co-operate how can we speak of him as a responsible moral agent? And if God, as Calvin insists, is ultimately the only agent in human actions, how is it that man and not God is responsible for sin?

    If someone can please help me to understand better I would appreciate it, thanks
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    Default Re: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

    TOTALLY WRONG. The original sin of Adam and Eve destroyed their chance to be immortal, live forever and be sinless. Obviously they still knew God even after they sinned, even though He banished them from the Garden. They were given free will to use, and they chose to use it to disobey God.

    OUR free will gives us the choice to get saved, whereby God then saves us by grace through faith. So free will still applies today..


    Your catholic church has you deceived. Stop listening to man's theories and start reading your bible.. MAN is not responsible for the sin in the world, the devil is.
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    Default Re: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

    Obviously the big difference between the Christian (so called) religions are --->Doctrine or Dogma.......many religions put their own twist on the word and or add things not found in the bible......for example....Catholics (I have family who are and speak based upon what they say) consistently push a church/sacramental salvation......whereas the bible teaches salvation in Christ an Christ alone....

    I want to correct "CALVINS" view......the following verses are found in the word....how would you describe them...?

    a. God has dealt to every man a measure of faith
    b. The grace of God that brings salvation has shined down upon ALL men
    c. Jesus paid for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD
    d. Jesus is the savior of ALL men, especially those that believe
    e. WHOSOEVER will call upon the name of the LORD shall be saved

    etc.......The above verses seem to point to the fact that salvation is open UNTO ALL....YET GOD will only SAVE those who acknowledge by faith.

    Yes of NO?
    Last edited by dcontroversal; July 10th, 2017 at 09:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

    we dont get judged for others sins...

    the pope is a liar and hates God...


    purgatory isnt biblical....


    we arent supposed to pray to men...



    Jesus is the only way....
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    Default Re: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

    I used to get mad talking to Catholics, I honestly believed that if Lord Jesus returned, Catholics would visit the Vatican and wait for the pope to appear on the balcony to give a thumbs up or thumbs down.

    Matthew 15:9
    But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    If a Catholic doesn't believe in papal infallibility, aren't they a protestant?
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    Default Re: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

    I must say I am somewhat surprised by the lack of charity as well as the inability to actually stay focused on the narrow question which I posed. If people aren't interested in having a charitable and rational conversation devoid of random accusations and adhominim's against my faith then I will take my questions elsewhere.

    I think we all should at least agree that Christ in His prayer in the garden in John clearly expresses a desire for His people to be One as He and the Father are One. I am interested in working towards that goal which is why I a seeking to know more about Protestant faith, but you will not assist me or Jesus if you can do no more than slam me and my faith with harsh criticism's.

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    Default Re: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

    Quote Originally Posted by WimpyPete View Post
    I must say I am somewhat surprised by the lack of charity as well as the inability to actually stay focused on the narrow question which I posed. If people aren't interested in having a charitable and rational conversation devoid of random accusations and adhominim's against my faith then I will take my questions elsewhere.

    I think we all should at least agree that Christ in His prayer in the garden in John clearly expresses a desire for His people to be One as He and the Father are One. I am interested in working towards that goal which is why I a seeking to know more about Protestant faith, but you will not assist me or Jesus if you can do no more than slam me and my faith with harsh criticism's.
    Did I slam you? All I did was reiterate the stance between Catholics and the bible and then gave you some verses to consider and asked your view based upon your question about Calvin's view.....wow.....
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    Default Re: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

    Now I don't know if you all have taken much time to read what Catholics actually believe from real Catholics, but I have been reading both Luther and Calvin and I believe what I stated in my original question is accurate to what they taught, if you are able to help me understand those particular questions more please reply on topic. If you just want to yell about how much you hate the Catholic church then I am not interested, sorry. We will never get anywhere if we can't stay on a single topic and speak with respect to one another.
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    Default Re: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

    Quote Originally Posted by WimpyPete View Post
    Hello, I am a Catholic, I come in peace simply seeking understand Protestant thought a bit more from Protestants themselves.

    This is what I understand of Protestant anthropology and soteriology, at least according to the primary reformers i.e. Luther and Calvin. Please let me know if I am correct:

    The original sin of Adam and Eve destroyed the goodness of man's nature and thereby destroyed the ability of his reason to know God or supernatural things, and also destroyed the freedom of his will thereby rendering him incapable of free moral actions.

    Because of man's total depravity of mind/will he is unable to participate in any way in his salvation and thus salvation is a matter of grace alone.

    Now the consequence of this which Luther never seems to deny and Calvin affirms outright is that because salvation is by grace ALONE then the difference between those who are saved and those who are damned depends not on human responsibility but on God, hence Calvin's doctrine of predestination.

    My first question is, have I understood this correctly?

    Secondly my question is this: How does such a theory avoid altering radically both God and man in such a way that God seems to be unavoidably monsterous for creating people who have absolutelly no chance of salvation, and man seems to no longer be a responsible moral agent since he can neither know the good nor does he have any power (even assisted by grace) to co-operate in doing good? If man does not even have the power to co-operate how can we speak of him as a responsible moral agent? And if God, as Calvin insists, is ultimately the only agent in human actions, how is it that man and not God is responsible for sin?

    If someone can please help me to understand better I would appreciate it, thanks
    I think you mixed too many things together.

    There are basics of protestantism like 5 Solas. I recommend you to read something about them first. You will find that many of it go back to Augustin etc.

    Then there are several branches of protestantism that differ in soteriology.

    There is a traditional branch proposed by Luther, Calvin and other European reformators about predestination.

    Then there is so called Arminianism that has a different view of it.

    ----

    So, if you want to study it better, I would recommend you to:

    a) get some more info about 5 solas and why we got to it
    b) read some good protestant catechism (like Heidelberg) or Second Helvetic Confession or maybe the Institution by Calvin
    c) get some more info about Arminius and his teaching

    ----

    This should cover most of protestantism. Then there are some modern churches saying they are protestants but not having much in common with this, only some aspects.
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    Default Re: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

    No you didn't, I am refering more to comments by noname such as "the pope is a liar and hates God". If you want to say that that's fine, but we aren't talking about the pope, or about sacraments etc. Those are fine topics but they aren't this topc.

    I agree with you though about Calvin, I do not believe that God predestines people to hell as he does, but he does say that.

    Also Catholics likewise believe that salvation is through Christ alone, I don't know why people think we don't believe that. We just believe that grace requires co-operates. It doesn't mean we merit it or save ourselves, just that we have to co-operate.

    If you reject the doctrine of co-operation it seems that we are locked into the doctrine of predestination though since salvation depends totally on God and has no role for man's responsible co-operation. That was my original point. Thanks for being more willing to talk though dcontroversal

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    Default Re: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

    I Don't think he meant you.

    Blessings

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Did I slam you? All I did was reiterate the stance between Catholics and the bible and then gave you some verses to consider and asked your view based upon your question about Calvin's view.....wow.....
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    Default Re: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

    Quote Originally Posted by WimpyPete View Post
    Hello, I am a Catholic, I come in peace simply seeking understand Protestant thought a bit more from Protestants themselves.

    This is what I understand of Protestant anthropology and soteriology, at least according to the primary reformers i.e. Luther and Calvin. Please let me know if I am correct:

    The original sin of Adam and Eve destroyed the goodness of man's nature and thereby destroyed the ability of his reason to know God or supernatural things, and also destroyed the freedom of his will thereby rendering him incapable of free moral actions.

    Because of man's total depravity of mind/will he is unable to participate in any way in his salvation and thus salvation is a matter of grace alone.

    Now the consequence of this which Luther never seems to deny and Calvin affirms outright is that because salvation is by grace ALONE then the difference between those who are saved and those who are damned depends not on human responsibility but on God, hence Calvin's doctrine of predestination.

    My first question is, have I understood this correctly?

    Secondly my question is this: How does such a theory avoid altering radically both God and man in such a way that God seems to be unavoidably monsterous for creating people who have absolutelly no chance of salvation, and man seems to no longer be a responsible moral agent since he can neither know the good nor does he have any power (even assisted by grace) to co-operate in doing good? If man does not even have the power to co-operate how can we speak of him as a responsible moral agent? And if God, as Calvin insists, is ultimately the only agent in human actions, how is it that man and not God is responsible for sin?

    If someone can please help me to understand better I would appreciate it, thanks
    The position of Luther and Calvin are both overstated and we need to retain certain biblical foundations to understand the situation. Adam sinned and his sin separated him from God. Adam needed to be redeemed and he could not redeem himself because sin requires the shedding of blood.

    One often overlooked consequence of sin is that Adam and the whole of the human race received the knowledge of good and evil. It is this inherit knowledge that makes Adam and the human race responsible to choose between good and evil.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    Man cannot of his own volition choose to receive Christ as Savior. Man must be drawn to Christ by the word of God and the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus further clarifies this in the gospel of John.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass
    use it to examine yourself not others.

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    Default Re: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

    Get ready to receive a bunch of different answers!

    Short and sweet: protestants protest the authority and position of the Pope
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    Default Re: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

    Calvin's doctrine of predestination
    Romans 8:30
    Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Also Mary isn't queen of heaven, praying to her with heathen prayer beads is not scriptural.
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    Default Re: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

    Quote Originally Posted by blue_ladybug View Post
    TOTALLY WRONG. The original sin of Adam and Eve destroyed their chance to be immortal, live forever and be sinless. Obviously they still knew God even after they sinned, even though He banished them from the Garden. They were given free will to use, and they chose to use it to disobey God.

    OUR free will gives us the choice to get saved, whereby God then saves us by grace through faith. So free will still applies today..


    Your catholic church has you deceived. Stop listening to man's theories and start reading your bible.. MAN is not responsible for the sin in the world, the devil is.
    Hey, Bug. Believe me, no fruit loop or weirdo could have answered that question as clearly and accurately as you just did.
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    Default Re: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

    Quote Originally Posted by WimpyPete View Post
    Now I don't know if you all have taken much time to read what Catholics actually believe from real Catholics, but I have been reading both Luther and Calvin and I believe what I stated in my original question is accurate to what they taught, if you are able to help me understand those particular questions more please reply on topic. If you just want to yell about how much you hate the Catholic church then I am not interested, sorry. We will never get anywhere if we can't stay on a single topic and speak with respect to one another.
    If I may? It appears all you have really read about is Calvinism. Would we Protestants know about Catholics if all we read about was Jesuits?

    Each are just a slim sect of the overall.
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    Default Re: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

    I am sorry some people get heated, and in such is reflected in what they write.

    It is just that, in the Catholic Bible there are 2 more added books.

    They also teach to pray to Mary and the Saints.

    As I tell my Catholic family members...

    "I don't need an operator to call upon the Lord... I have a direct line."

    The Lord is the only way.. not Idols of him and Mary...

    It is a personal relationship with only God the Father, God Our Lord Jesus Christ and God the Holy Spirit...
    Which none would be Possible with out Our Saviour.

    As for help with your Question wish I could shed some light... But I do not see myself as any denomination
    But a Born again, living under thanksgiving of Grace.

    I do believe and know God knew us before he knit us....
    So he knew I would partake in the cup and believe, proclaim Jesus as my Lord and Saviour.

    Does that make it predestined...
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    Default Re: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

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    Default Re: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

    Quote Originally Posted by WimpyPete View Post
    Hello, I am a Catholic, I come in peace simply seeking understand Protestant thought a bit more from Protestants themselves.

    This is what I understand of Protestant anthropology and soteriology, at least according to the primary reformers i.e. Luther and Calvin. Please let me know if I am correct:

    The original sin of Adam and Eve destroyed the goodness of man's nature and thereby destroyed the ability of his reason to know God or supernatural things, and also destroyed the freedom of his will thereby rendering him incapable of free moral actions.

    Because of man's total depravity of mind/will he is unable to participate in any way in his salvation and thus salvation is a matter of grace alone.

    Now the consequence of this which Luther never seems to deny and Calvin affirms outright is that because salvation is by grace ALONE then the difference between those who are saved and those who are damned depends not on human responsibility but on God, hence Calvin's doctrine of predestination.

    My first question is, have I understood this correctly?

    Secondly my question is this: How does such a theory avoid altering radically both God and man in such a way that God seems to be unavoidably monsterous for creating people who have absolutelly no chance of salvation, and man seems to no longer be a responsible moral agent since he can neither know the good nor does he have any power (even assisted by grace) to co-operate in doing good? If man does not even have the power to co-operate how can we speak of him as a responsible moral agent? And if God, as Calvin insists, is ultimately the only agent in human actions, how is it that man and not God is responsible for sin?

    If someone can please help me to understand better I would appreciate it, thanks
    Hi WP

    Welcome to CC.

    Everything you stated about Calvinism is correct.

    I just hope you don't believe that every Protestant is Calvinistic in belief system.

    Calvin was wrong all around as was Luther regarding this...
    BTW, it's called Double Predestination.

    Even Catholics believe in predestination, but not in the way Calvin did.

    I agree with you 100%. If Calvin is right, which he was not, it would change God into a monster.

    I've said this many times and all mainline protestant churches DO NOT believe in Calvinism for the precise reason that you've stated.

    So, if I were you, I'd discard Calvinism and go to other ways in which Catholics differ from Protestants.

    I'll be happy to speak to you about it, knowing the doctrine of both the Catholic denomination and most of the mainline Protestnt denominations.

    Some here like arguing.
    I like discussing.

    Hope to hear from you.

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    Default Re: Help a Catholic understand Protestantism better please

    I appreciate those who are trying to actually engage these questions and have a discussion. For the others, I don't understand why as soon as you hear the word Catholic you have to start screaming about Mary and the Pope and the evil deceiving church.


    I assume that people on this forum are devoted Christians and have a real love for the Lord. I assume that you love and read the Bible. I don't know why you can't believe the same for Catholics and realize that we are simply dealing with different interpretations of the Bible.


    That being said, I think the topic I am proposing is a simple and narrow one. It hinges on if salvation is by grace alone or if co-operation is required. My question is, if salvation does not allow for our co-operation (through grace), then how does it not result in predestination where God damns certain people to hell with no chance of salvation.
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