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Thread: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13:48?

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    Senior Member Marano's Avatar
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    Default If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13:48?

    Now I've just read an article by Douglas Hamp on why election and God choosing in the bible is always talking about God choosing Israel, and yes that incluedes Ephesians, Romans 9 and all the other passages in scripture that talks about election. He claims election is never about salvation as the reformed believe.

    Here's the article:

    Why God Did Not Elect Calvinists: The Biblical Concept of Election Never Means Predestined to Salvation and Commonly is a Reference to Israel | DouglasHamp.com

    Now one verse I was hoping he would adress was acts 13:48:

    Acts 13:48King James Version (KJV)


    48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

    I know there are people on this forum who believe like Douglas Hamp, how do you explain that passage then? I feel like this is a slap in the face of those who believe election is never about salvation and only about the jews since it talks both about gentiles and God ordaining to eternal life.

    One user I'm hoping will respond to this topic is John146 since I think he's made clear he agrees with Douglas Hamp, and I supposed there are more like him on the forum.

    And by the way I was looking at Douglas Hamp because of his stuff on the millenium and I think he's done a great study there, but he clearly is wrong here.
    Last edited by Marano; July 12th, 2017 at 10:49 PM.

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    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13

    The two have been made one and in the N.T. under grace there is nether Jew nor Gentile.....
    WingsOfFidelity likes this.

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    Senior Member Marano's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    The two have been made one and in the N.T. under grace there is nether Jew nor Gentile.....
    Not everyone believes that, some take the position that the article talks about, so I think it's worth discussing. At least I want to hear from people who hold that position.

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    Default Re: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13

    Quote Originally Posted by Marano View Post
    Now I've just read an article by Douglas Hamp on why election and God choosing in the bible is always talking about God choosing Israel, and yes that incluedes Ephesians, Romans 9 and all the other passages in scripture that talks about election. He claims election is never about salvation as the reformed believe.Here's the article:Why God Did Not Elect Calvinists: The Biblical Concept of Election Never Means Predestined to Salvation and Commonly is a Reference to Israel | DouglasHamp.comNow one verse I was hoping he would adress was acts 13:48:Acts 13:48King James Version (KJV)48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.I know there are people on this forum who believe like Douglas Hamp, how do you explain that passage then? I feel like this is a slap in the face of those who believe election is never about salvation and only about the jews since it talks both about gentiles and God ordaining to eternal life.One user I'm hoping will respond to this topic is John146 since I think he's made clear he agrees with Douglas Hamp, and I supposed there are more like him on the forum.And by the way I was looking at Douglas Hamp because of his stuff on the millenium and I think he's done a great study there, but he clearly is wrong here.
    Hi Marano,


    Peter's audiance is both Jew and Gentile.


    1 Peter 1:1.2
    Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
    To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
    Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

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    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13

    Galatians-->There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Ephesians-->by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
    20 and WingsOfFidelity like this.

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    Senior Member Marano's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13

    Quote Originally Posted by Desertsrose View Post


    Hi Marano,


    Peter's audiance is both Jew and Gentile.


    1 Peter 1:1.2
    Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
    To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
    Douglas Hamp mentions in the article that Peter is an apostle to the Jews so he's only talking about the Jews there, the word there he says mentions the diaspora of the jews, so...

    Anyway it doesn't seem like you hold to that belief so maybe we can get someone like John146 here who believes like tha article does and shed some light on that acts verse.

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    Senior Member Marano's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Galatians-->There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Ephesians-->by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
    I'm not saying I disagree with you I want to get someone who believes like Douglas Hamp here though, so we can hear their defense of Acts 13:48.

    That verse is not a problem if you believe God has His elect among every tribe, tongue and nation, and election is indeed about salvation. It becomes a problem when you restrict that to national election only and exclude saving faith from it.
    dcontroversal likes this.

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    Default Re: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr8-BBTzkmM

    I think this may be helpful.

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    Default Re: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13

    Quote Originally Posted by Marano View Post
    Now I've just read an article by Douglas Hamp on why election and God choosing in the bible is always talking about God choosing Israel, and yes that incluedes Ephesians, Romans 9 and all the other passages in scripture that talks about election. He claims election is never about salvation as the reformed believe.

    Here's the article:

    Why God Did Not Elect Calvinists: The Biblical Concept of Election Never Means Predestined to Salvation and Commonly is a Reference to Israel | DouglasHamp.com

    Now one verse I was hoping he would adress was acts 13:48:

    Acts 13:48King James Version (KJV)


    48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

    I know there are people on this forum who believe like Douglas Hamp, how do you explain that passage then? I feel like this is a slap in the face of those who believe election is never about salvation and only about the jews since it talks both about gentiles and God ordaining to eternal life.

    One user I'm hoping will respond to this topic is John146 since I think he's made clear he agrees with Douglas Hamp, and I supposed there are more like him on the forum.

    And by the way I was looking at Douglas Hamp because of his stuff on the millenium and I think he's done a great study there, but he clearly is wrong here.
    The Elect are made up of a inward born again Jews and the Israel that is the spirtual lsrael of God. No all who cliaim to be Israel are Israel just as all Christians the new name he named Israel are Christians. If any man has not the Spirit of Christ the Holy Spirit of God then neither are they elected.

    Christ of his own flesh made it clear it does not profit, towards salvation God is not a man as us.

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    Default Re: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13

    As always go read in whole but just a quick piece to intrigue:

    Revelation 3:9King James Version (KJV)

    9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

    imposters?





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    Default Re: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13

    Quote Originally Posted by Marano View Post
    Douglas Hamp mentions in the article that Peter is an apostle to the Jews so he's only talking about the Jews there, the word there he says mentions the diaspora of the jews, so...

    Anyway it doesn't seem like you hold to that belief so maybe we can get someone like John146 here who believes like tha article does and shed some light on that acts verse.
    That is a false distinction.
    If you read Acts 10 Peter is responsible for the first large scale conversion of Gentiles into the church.
    Furthermore, if one reads about Paul's missionary activities he always started in a new location by going to the local synagogue to preach the Gospel.
    Yes, some of the converts were Gentile "God-fearers" but a lot were Jews.

    I have not read the article but I think that to make theological points on a false distinction like this is unwise...

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    Senior Member Marano's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13

    Quote Originally Posted by graceNpeace View Post
    That is a false distinction.
    If you read Acts 10 Peter is responsible for the first large scale conversion of Gentiles into the church.
    Furthermore, if one reads about Paul's missionary activities he always started in a new location by going to the local synagogue to preach the Gospel.
    Yes, some of the converts were Gentile "God-fearers" but a lot were Jews.

    I have not read the article but I think that to make theological points on a false distinction like this is unwise...
    Lots of things I don't agree with in the article, I just mentioned it, maybe you should read it and see for yourself.

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    Default Re: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13

    Quote Originally Posted by Marano View Post
    Now I've just read an article by Douglas Hamp on why election and God choosing in the bible is always talking about God choosing Israel, and yes that incluedes Ephesians, Romans 9 and all the other passages in scripture that talks about election. He claims election is never about salvation as the reformed believe.

    Here's the article:

    Why God Did Not Elect Calvinists: The Biblical Concept of Election Never Means Predestined to Salvation and Commonly is a Reference to Israel | DouglasHamp.com

    Now one verse I was hoping he would adress was acts 13:48:

    Acts 13:48King James Version (KJV)


    48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

    I know there are people on this forum who believe like Douglas Hamp, how do you explain that passage then? I feel like this is a slap in the face of those who believe election is never about salvation and only about the jews since it talks both about gentiles and God ordaining to eternal life.

    One user I'm hoping will respond to this topic is John146 since I think he's made clear he agrees with Douglas Hamp, and I supposed there are more like him on the forum.

    And by the way I was looking at Douglas Hamp because of his stuff on the millenium and I think he's done a great study there, but he clearly is wrong here.
    Never heard of this guy.

    The meaning is obviously that as many as were disposed to believe the message, believed. (Rom. 2:7) - God doesn't ordain any Gentile to eternal life until he has followed his conscience and is willing to hear the Word of God (vs. 42,48) "ordained" something God allows to come to pass.

    Through the context of chapter 13, we have Paul reaching out to the Jews with the message of Jesus Christ. Those Jews did not want to hear it, but the Gentiles asked Paul to speak to them about it the following week. They wanted to hear the message. God "ordained" the Gentiles to hear the message. God allowed it to come to pass. God allowed Paul to preach to the Gentiles. Paul is the chosen vessel to preach the message of Christ to the Gentiles.

    The word elect or election is never tied to salvation, but rather a simple word that means of God's choosing. The Jews were elected by God for a certain purpose, to bring about the Messiah. God elected Jacob and not Esau. And by the way, God usually sets aside the first and chooses the second. God elected Jesus Christ as the means of salvation(Isaiah 42) through the new covenant instead of the old.
    Last edited by John146; July 13th, 2017 at 12:02 PM.
    tanakh likes this.

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    Senior Member Marano's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Never heard of this guy.

    The meaning is obviously that as many as were disposed to believe the message, believed. (Rom. 2:7) - God doesn't ordain any Gentile to eternal life until he has followed his conscience and is willing to hear the Word of God (vs. 42,48) "ordained" something God allows to come to pass.

    Through the context of chapter 13, we have Paul reaching out to the Jews with the message of Jesus Christ. Those Jews did not want to hear it, but the Gentiles asked Paul to speak to them about it the following week. They wanted to hear the message. God "ordained" the Gentiles to hear the message. God allowed it to come to pass. God allowed Paul to preach to the Gentiles. Paul is the chosen vessel to preach the message of Christ to the Gentiles.

    The word elect or election is never tied to salvation, but rather a simple word that means of God's choosing. The Jews were elected by God for a certain purpose, to bring about the Messiah. God elected Jacob and not Esau. And by the way, God usually sets aside the first and chooses the second. God elected Jesus Christ as the means of salvation(Isaiah 42) through the new covenant instead of the old.
    I was hoping you would respond, but you didn't adress the points the verse is making, gentiles who were annointed to believe for salvation.

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    Senior Member NoNameMcgee's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13

    ive listened to a lot of Doug hamp....

    hes an interesting character


    but i also disagree with him often

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    Senior Member Marano's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13

    Quote Originally Posted by NoNameMcgee View Post
    ive listened to a lot of Doug hamp....

    hes an interesting character


    but i also disagree with him often
    I agree, here I just have to disagree with him, he's right in a lot of things though.

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    Default Re: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13

    Quote Originally Posted by Marano View Post
    I was hoping you would respond, but you didn't adress the points the verse is making, gentiles who were annointed to believe for salvation.
    The Gentiles were ordained or chosen to believe the gospel message. God was not going to leave them out. The Jews also were ordained to believe the gospel, but they rejected it.

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    Default Re: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    The Gentiles were ordained or chosen to believe the gospel message. God was not going to leave them out. The Jews also were ordained to believe the gospel, but they rejected it.
    It says "as many who were appointed to eternal life believed". That explicitly shows not everyone is appointed to eternal life, and that would exclude the unbelieving Jews, hence their lack of belief.

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    Senior Member Marano's Avatar
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    Default Re: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13

    Quote Originally Posted by RedeemedGift View Post
    It says "as many who were appointed to eternal life believed". That explicitly shows not everyone is appointed to eternal life, and that would exclude the unbelieving Jews, hence their lack of belief.
    I agree with you, but it seems he won't agree with anything related to election that includes salvation.

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    Default Re: If you believe elect in the bible always means israel/jews how to explain acts 13

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    The two have been made one and in the N.T. under grace there is nether Jew nor Gentile.....


    I agree whole heartdly ...They are Jesus's Church
    1 Cor 15:1-4

    Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    .

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