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Thread: Computers suck!

  1. #1
    Senior Member Denadii's Avatar
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    Default Computers suck!

    Computers suck!

    People have gone from actually studying the Word to Googleing the Word then cutting and pasting it. Makes them look really knowledgeable but they actually learn very little this way. That's why so many here don't believe the majority of the bible. They don't know what it says. And they do it all intellectually to win their point. Because of this there is little love involved in this site. Only a mediocre show of it. Though to be honest, there are some real Christians in this forum.

    Its all because of this tech shortcut called computers.
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    Senior Member posthuman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Computers suck!

    what's different about me spending an hour trying to find that one verse that i remember & can paraphrase but can't remember chapter-and-verse on, versus me being able to use a search engine & find it within a few seconds?

    time

    there are downsides to the speed at which we can all communicate now, for sure, but not in the matter of communication itself, i think, but the way in which we these days tend to expect everything quickly, and don't expect to put a long time into things, whether learning them in the first place or perfecting them.

    i am quite thankful to have a 'searchable Bible' -- i've never been good at memorizing the numbers of chapters or verses ((or dates)) though i've been blessed with a good memory for the words themselves -- this, because i've read them over and over many times and continue to, God willing.

    one aspect of such easy and quick access to information that seems to be harmful is that we can all know in short order 'just enough to be dangerous' for example anyone can in a few moments go find Greek & Hebrew words and something about their definitions, and even a bit of knowledge about a word's tense, and fool themselves into thinking they are an expert on how translation *should* be. am sure i'm guilty of that myself - and the same goes for all kinds of different areas of expertise. people spend years learning about a subject & developing an intimate understanding of it, and then someone who 5 minutes ago had never heard of it or thought about it, reads a wiki page or the top google result on it, and confronts them like they have some kind of equal knowledge of the thing.

    in a lot of ways having the information superhighway at our fingertips, we lose the sense of humility we used to encounter when we come face-to-face with just how much research and time and effort mastery of some area or another takes. it's not so obvious now, because all kinds of facts ((and opinions!)) are only a few clicks away - knowledge that used to take at the very least, hours and hours, or days and days of poring over card catalogues and tomes in the library's reference section.
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    Default Re: Computers suck!

    Quote Originally Posted by Denadii View Post
    Computers suck!

    People have gone from actually studying the Word to Googleing the Word then cutting and pasting it. Makes them look really knowledgeable but they actually learn very little this way. That's why so many here don't believe the majority of the bible. They don't know what it says. And they do it all intellectually to win their point. Because of this there is little love involved in this site. Only a mediocre show of it. Though to be honest, there are some real Christians in this forum.

    Its all because of this tech shortcut called computers.
    I'm inclined to agree with you. It is hard to stare at walls and walls of bible passages and try make any sense out of what that has to do with the point that was raised.
    M & M's melt in your mouth and not in your hands.

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    Default Re: Computers suck!

    Quote Originally Posted by Denadii View Post
    Computers suck!

    People have gone from actually studying the Word to Googleing the Word then cutting and pasting it. Makes them look really knowledgeable but they actually learn very little this way. That's why so many here don't believe the majority of the bible. They don't know what it says. And they do it all intellectually to win their point. Because of this there is little love involved in this site. Only a mediocre show of it. Though to be honest, there are some real Christians in this forum.

    Its all because of this tech shortcut called computers.
    This is the same argument I heard about using electric guitars in church....
    That argument never held up and neither does this one!

    Computers have nothing to do with the real issue do they...

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    Senior Member Denadii's Avatar
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    Default Re: Computers suck!

    Quote Originally Posted by posthuman View Post
    what's different about me spending an hour trying to find that one verse that i remember & can paraphrase but can't remember chapter-and-verse on, versus me being able to use a search engine & find it within a few seconds?

    time

    there are downsides to the speed at which we can all communicate now, for sure, but not in the matter of communication itself, i think, but the way in which we these days tend to expect everything quickly, and don't expect to put a long time into things, whether learning them in the first place or perfecting them.

    i am quite thankful to have a 'searchable Bible' -- i've never been good at memorizing the numbers of chapters or verses ((or dates)) though i've been blessed with a good memory for the words themselves -- this, because i've read them over and over many times and continue to, God willing.

    one aspect of such easy and quick access to information that seems to be harmful is that we can all know in short order 'just enough to be dangerous' for example anyone can in a few moments go find Greek & Hebrew words and something about their definitions, and even a bit of knowledge about a word's tense, and fool themselves into thinking they are an expert on how translation *should* be. am sure i'm guilty of that myself - and the same goes for all kinds of different areas of expertise. people spend years learning about a subject & developing an intimate understanding of it, and then someone who 5 minutes ago had never heard of it or thought about it, reads a wiki page or the top google result on it, and confronts them like they have some kind of equal knowledge of the thing.

    in a lot of ways having the information superhighway at our fingertips, we lose the sense of humility we used to encounter when we come face-to-face with just how much research and time and effort mastery of some area or another takes. it's not so obvious now, because all kinds of facts ((and opinions!)) are only a few clicks away - knowledge that used to take at the very least, hours and hours, or days and days of poring over card catalogues and tomes in the library's reference section.
    AS I began my growth in the Lord all we had were our bibles. We had Strongs concordance and a few other books. But it was all books. If I couldn't find a verse I was thinking of I could look in that putzy concordance in the back of my bible or I could go to Strongs.

    Then it would tell me where the verse is and I could go to it. I learned early to stay away from commentaries because they are but opinions of other men who learned from other men. Though the concordances are not bad, they are not the Word. So. Find all the scriptures that relate to the subject you are trying to learn, and go from there. You ask the Holy Spirit to teach you because that's His role. He is our teacher and counselor.

    When one Googles his answers he looks for a site that talks along the lines the Googler is thinking. Then said Googler cuts and pastes and learns little, having to back multiple times to get it when he needs it.
    Can that really be considered learning?
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    Senior Member posthuman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Computers suck!

    i never had Strong's -- i had "Haley's Bible handbook" tho

    i've never had a Bible with a concordance or a separate concordance that was comprehensive enough to find a particular passage i had in mind every time. i'd have to basically skim through all or Proverbs or both 1st & 2nd Corinthians or something, just so i could accurately quote three or for lines. now i can find things quickly - which i do consider a blessing and advantage - but all that skimming and searching helped me gain familiarity with the Word, that i don't at all get by going directly to a search bar and from there directly to exactly the verse, or a handful of them, that i am looking for, bypassing every other part of the book.




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    Senior Member posthuman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Computers suck!

    Quote Originally Posted by tourist View Post
    I'm inclined to agree with you. It is hard to stare at walls and walls of bible passages and try make any sense out of what that has to do with the point that was raised.

    like when someone posts a whole chapter of something, without any comment on what it is they mean to draw out of that and apply to the conversation?
    yeah. i usually don't know what to make of that either.
    i find myself reading the chapter, wondering if the person has some weird interpretation, or sees something deep in here that either refutes or substantiates whatever they are replying to? or does this chapter mean they agree or disagree, which is it? and i don't know how to take it.

    i do fairly often quote just a verse or two and leave it without comment though, and when i do that i hope that the meaning is obvious and as relevant to what i'm responding to as i can find. to me that's different from quoting really big blocks of scripture, because ((again, i hope)) i've zeroed in on something that doesn't leave a bunch of guesswork about my intention in posting it.
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    Senior Member Denadii's Avatar
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    Default Re: Computers suck!

    Quote Originally Posted by posthuman View Post
    i never had Strong's -- i had "Haley's Bible handbook" tho

    i've never had a Bible with a concordance or a separate concordance that was comprehensive enough to find a particular passage i had in mind every time. i'd have to basically skim through all or Proverbs or both 1st & 2nd Corinthians or something, just so i could accurately quote three or for lines. now i can find things quickly - which i do consider a blessing and advantage - but all that skimming and searching helped me gain familiarity with the Word, that i don't at all get by going directly to a search bar and from there directly to exactly the verse, or a handful of them, that i am looking for, bypassing every other part of the book.




    Skimming is not a bad way to do it. Its essentially speed reading.
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    The quickest way to become brain dead is to take offense.”

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    Senior Member prove-all's Avatar
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    Default Re: Computers suck!

    Quote Originally Posted by Denadii View Post
    I am quite thankful to have a 'searchable Bible' -- i've never been good at
    memorizing the numbers of chapters or verses ((or dates)) though i've been
    blessed with a good memory for the words themselves -- this, because i've
    read them over and over many times and continue to, God willing.
    Amen, this sounds just like me, and I'm also thankful for a 'searchable Bible'

    -

    The human mind can produce the most sophisticated computer technology
    imaginable. We have sent men to walk on the surface of the moon—a robot
    to crawl on the surface of Mars, and so many other good things for mankind.

    God is A creator, He creates things, man is made in Gods image, we create too.

    Yet the same minds which produce such marvels of science and technology cannot
    solve human evils, like war,violence, crime, immorality, dishonesty and deceit.

    How can a mind that produces such incredible technology utterly fail when it comes
    to solving world problems? The answer: human nature. Jeremiah 17:9 says,

    “The heart [of man] is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked:
    who can know it?” All of the evils plaguing society today can be blamed on
    the deceitful, wicked human nature in man.

    -

    there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets,
    and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar
    what shall be in the (latter days)” (Daniel 2:28)

    8And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord,
    what shall be the end of these things?

    9And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are
    (closed up) and (sealed) till the time of (the end).

    4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time
    of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    -
    sonic jets and space travel, [internet and knowledge] increased,
    we are in the end times, open and revieled to Gods servents.

    A vast amount of information is at our fingertips,
    if you can get passed the false crud.
    Last edited by prove-all; 1 Week Ago at 09:17 PM.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member posthuman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Computers suck!

    Quote Originally Posted by Denadii View Post

    When one Googles his answers he looks for a site that talks along the lines the Googler is thinking. Then said Googler cuts and pastes and learns little, having to back multiple times to get it when he needs it.
    Can that really be considered learning?
    this reminds me of trying to correct the flat-earth-ites. i've spent decades studying math and physics and astronomy. i try to raise a point, and to explain why some part of their world-model contradicts established fact, not from going and googling a list of "gotcha" points, but from actually thinking about it and having knowledge about it. and they reply in 3 minutes by googling some list of 'answers to objections' on the church-of-the-flat-earth site, or worse, they just link a youtube video where someone repeats the same argument i've just tried to demonstrate to them is faulty.

    do they understand what they are talking about at all? or are they just copy-pasting something that 'looks about right' ?

    same thing happens here with actual theological subjects, for sure. sometimes, we may as well be talking to robots that scan our words, search a database for a match, and spit out a response. how could we tell the difference between an algorithm designed to auto-respond by quote-mining and a person who is actually giving a lot of thought to what is said & knows a lot of quotable-quotes they like to share?
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  11. #11
    Senior Member posthuman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Computers suck!

    Quote Originally Posted by posthuman View Post

    same thing happens here with actual theological subjects, for sure. sometimes, we may as well be talking to robots that scan our words, search a database for a match, and spit out a response. how could we tell the difference between an algorithm designed to auto-respond by quote-mining and a person who is actually giving a lot of thought to what is said & knows a lot of quotable-quotes they like to share?


    i read a sci-fi novel a couple years ago, about first-contact with very strange aliens, trying to comprehend how they thought and communicated, that called this "
    the Chinese room problem"

    the Chinese room problem is as follows:

    imagine a person is sealed in a cell with no method of communicating with directly with his captors. a few times a day, a piece of paper with markings on it is slipped through a slot in the door, and the captive is expected to write something on the paper and send it back out with the slot. he discovers that if he makes certain marks, he gets a tray of food, but if he makes other marks, he gets nothing, or maybe even he is punished somehow with loud abrasive noises or what have you.
    suppose what's written on the papers every day is Chinese - and that the inmate knows nothing at all about Chinese, and doesn't even recognize it. you can imagine that after enough trial and error, he could appear to be able to understand the writing and to be responding intelligently. he can see Chinese writing and know what an appropriate response is. the longer this goes on, the more sophisticated he can become and the more convincing.
    but he doesn't know Chinese at all - in fact he doesn't even know that he's speaking or writing Chinese. all he knows is that if he sees this pattern, a particular pattern, or one from a group of acceptable patterns, is a good way to respond. he has no idea what he's saying, and may not even know that he's carrying on a conversation!

    so after all this, does the man know Chinese, or not?

    this is one way of creating '
    artificial intelligence' - training a machine to respond in 'appropriate' ways to sets of input. it's been shown that you can trick a Turing test with a method like this. a robot can appear to 'know' what it's talking about because it can respond in ways that seem right in every situation, but in reality it doesn't 'know' anything; it's just got a very efficient sorting algorithm and a 'smart' database of potential outputs.

    is this what the internet is making out of people? a lot of so-called-knowledge?
    is it any different from the days before we had all this quick access to searchable information?
    did we essentially do the same thing then, only at a much slower pace?
    is there actually any kind of intelligence that's different from this?
    does anyone really
    speak Chinese at all??



    ((my apologies for any heads that just exploded))
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    Default Re: Computers suck!

    Quote Originally Posted by Denadii View Post
    Computers suck!

    People have gone from actually studying the Word to Googleing the Word then cutting and pasting it. Makes them look really knowledgeable but they actually learn very little this way. That's why so many here don't believe the majority of the bible. They don't know what it says. And they do it all intellectually to win their point. Because of this there is little love involved in this site. Only a mediocre show of it. Though to be honest, there are some real Christians in this forum.

    Its all because of this tech shortcut called computers.
    Not really. I have downloaded — and studied — dozens of books (relatively cheaply) from the internet. I couldn't have afforded to have had access to the knowledge of so many wise Theologians if I had to fork out the prices that are charged for hardbound books.
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    Senior Member Denadii's Avatar
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    Default Re: Computers suck!

    Quote Originally Posted by posthuman View Post


    i read a sci-fi novel a couple years ago, about first-contact with very strange aliens, trying to comprehend how they thought and communicated, that called this "
    the Chinese room problem"

    the Chinese room problem is as follows:

    imagine a person is sealed in a cell with no method of communicating with directly with his captors. a few times a day, a piece of paper with markings on it is slipped through a slot in the door, and the captive is expected to write something on the paper and send it back out with the slot. he discovers that if he makes certain marks, he gets a tray of food, but if he makes other marks, he gets nothing, or maybe even he is punished somehow with loud abrasive noises or what have you.
    suppose what's written on the papers every day is Chinese - and that the inmate knows nothing at all about Chinese, and doesn't even recognize it. you can imagine that after enough trial and error, he could appear to be able to understand the writing and to be responding intelligently. he can see Chinese writing and know what an appropriate response is. the longer this goes on, the more sophisticated he can become and the more convincing.
    but he doesn't know Chinese at all - in fact he doesn't even know that he's speaking or writing Chinese. all he knows is that if he sees this pattern, a particular pattern, or one from a group of acceptable patterns, is a good way to respond. he has no idea what he's saying, and may not even know that he's carrying on a conversation!

    so after all this, does the man know Chinese, or not?

    this is one way of creating '
    artificial intelligence' - training a machine to respond in 'appropriate' ways to sets of input. it's been shown that you can trick a Turing test with a method like this. a robot can appear to 'know' what it's talking about because it can respond in ways that seem right in every situation, but in reality it doesn't 'know' anything; it's just got a very efficient sorting algorithm and a 'smart' database of potential outputs.

    is this what the internet is making out of people? a lot of so-called-knowledge?
    is it any different from the days before we had all this quick access to searchable information?
    did we essentially do the same thing then, only at a much slower pace?
    is there actually any kind of intelligence that's different from this?
    does anyone really
    speak Chinese at all??



    ((my apologies for any heads that just exploded))
    That's a good analogy I agree There is an effort to dumb down people of this planet. They are very near to succeeding at that..
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    Default Re: Computers suck!

    Quote Originally Posted by Denadii View Post
    That's a good analogy I agree There is an effort to dumb down people of this planet. They are very near to succeeding at that..

    turns us into good little consumers.

    "eat this"
    "desire this"
    "believe this"
    "detest that"
    "be friends with these"
    "be enemies of those"

    covet, buy, covet, buy, covet, buy...

    yuk

    dude you are bringing out my inner hippy lol

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    Senior Member Denadii's Avatar
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    Default Re: Computers suck!

    Quote Originally Posted by posthuman View Post

    turns us into good little consumers.

    "eat this"
    "desire this"
    "believe this"
    "detest that"
    "be friends with these"
    "be enemies of those"

    covet, buy, covet, buy, covet, buy...

    yuk

    dude you are bringing out my inner hippy lol
    Far out man!
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    Default Re: Computers suck!

    Quote Originally Posted by posthuman View Post
    i am quite thankful to have a 'searchable Bible'
    Amen- sorry about, on post #9 I put Denadii name on your quote by mistake.
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    Default Re: Computers suck!

    Quote Originally Posted by graceNpeace View Post
    This is the same argument I heard about using electric guitars in church....
    That argument never held up and neither does this one!

    Computers have nothing to do with the real issue do they...
    Best reply so far.

    It's like saying facebook is evil because so many people waste their whole lives on it. There are always some people who will fritter their lives away on useless things. Modern technology just makes it easier.
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    Senior Member Denadii's Avatar
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    Default Re: Computers suck!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx View Post
    Best reply so far.

    It's like saying facebook is evil because so many people waste their whole lives on it. There are always some people who will fritter their lives away on useless things. Modern technology just makes it easier.
    Easier to get dumber. I like computers for some things...Writing for instance. I have research and typing all in one place on my desk. I keep an extensive library on my computer.
    The quickest way to become brain dead is to take offense.”

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    Default Re: Computers suck!

    But computers also make it easier for me to put together a sermon. I've read the whole Bible multiple times, but I can rarely remember exactly what chapter and verse I need. I know what the verse says, but not where it is. Esword is a wonderful thing. Or Gnomesword, or MySword on my phone, or whatever the bible program is.
    "Do you sing at church?"
    "Yes I sing at church. And I sing at work. And I sing at home... and in the car... at the supermarket... at Wal-Mart..."

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    Default Re: Computers suck!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx View Post
    But computers also make it easier for me to put together a sermon. I've read the whole Bible multiple times, but I can rarely remember exactly what chapter and verse I need. I know what the verse says, but not where it is. Esword is a wonderful thing. Or Gnomesword, or MySword on my phone, or whatever the bible program is.
    Say! Would you know if there is a way to move a book from my computer onto my phone?
    The quickest way to become brain dead is to take offense.”

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