Apostasy churches?

[Dai3234]

Hello, getting confused and annoyed again.
Now I'm thinking it's nearly impossible for anyone to be a Christian, as I've seen a well explained video about how all pulpit church models are basically teaching the same as Catholic principles, and the video seems correct.

E,g, grace to you, cross conference, or charismatic health & wealth. Giant buildings, millions of dollars, yet totally different churches etc. House churches like Francis chans seem biblical.

So if their are basically next to zero, of these churches, how is anyone supposed to be a Christian??? Sometimes I think it would have been better if God never thought of earth. And most of you probably go to a pulpit church also. Hardly any fellowship, though Americans have more than in UK.
I've not even been able to get or find free religious footage for evangelising DVDs, don't know if God picked the right person.

WHAT IS A BIBLICAL CHURCH. Do any exist?

 

[Bogadile]

If you ever find a perfect church, do not join it or you'll ruin it.

There are good individual churches everywhere, since I do not live in the UK it would be difficult for me to say what is and what is not a good church, I think you should pick one that has the GOSPEL correct. That is the most important thing. You can be wrong on many areas but the Gospel is where you must be correct.

 

[BeyondET]

Well there's two sides to a coin, I agree the context of the teachings within a church is probably first foremost, a million dollar building can have the same teachings as per say a one room shack or out in a field or just a basic biulding to house folks wanting to have fellowship and worship and for learning and growing.

As far as pulpit, aka teaching from a platform, I think Jesus did this a few times, one off the top of head is when a large crowd had gathered Jesus got into a boat and preached to the people. this might not look like a modern day pulpit though nonetheless it was a platform a pulpit per say to teach from.

 

[dcontroversal]

There are certain foundational truths that identify a true N.T. church.....and without a doubt Jesus promised the perpetuity of his churches until the end of the age....so YES there are true churches to be found........if the root is good the church is good....and likewise the exact opposite is equally true....if the root is corrupt the "church" is corrupt.

 

[Dai3234]

Hmmm, but if all churches follow a non-biblically model, then aren't all churches of that model, poorly rooted?

If im taught a message on a Sunday, have no fellowship as we are commanded as far as I know, and the church is buying a new building because theirs not enough space for coffee mornings and creche-school, and a Sunday service (don't do evenings except Sunday), shouldn't all these churches focus on church and not extras.

Or get more than just one or 2 guys doing ministry. Otherwise I think it's the same as a catholic church model. Money, church, money, church, not greedily, just not biblical so it costs money that should go to evangelising, which most preachers don't seem to show or do etc. They tell.

 

[dcontroversal]

It is not the building...."a" church is the people.....just saying....

 

[Dai3234]

It is not the building...."a" church is the people.....just saying....

I know. But running a building rather than a free "homes-church", growing many pastor's with home congregations of no more than say 5 to 12 people, creating more pastor's. Is free and creates a kind of continuous fellowship. Where £millions are saved, people learn better through discussion frequently, and people have support to stay Christian and evangelise together and not alone.

Big church just has people looking, listening and paying, mostly. Not much else.

 

[dcontroversal]

I know. But running a building rather than a free "homes-church", growing many pastor's with home congregations of no more than say 5 to 12 people, creating more pastor's. Is free and creates a kind of continuous fellowship. Where £millions are saved, people learn better through discussion frequently, and people have support to stay Christian and evangelise together and not alone.

Big church just has people looking, listening and paying, mostly. Not much else.

Ummm....I think if you go thru Acts you will both small in number and large in number assemblies.....and lest we forget...it is not that buildings are unbiblical....remember that the Jews met in synagogues, Jesus went to synagogues and even Paul would go there first to preach and teach....I have seen very evangelistic churches that met in buildings that were paid for and that witnessed highly effective in their respective communities.....and like you say...I have also seen some churches that are all about being rich and in need of nothing while placing the evangelizing upon a few "paid" positions......just saying....

 

[BeyondET]

Is there really a biblical standard for congregational sizes, when I think of all the places Jesus taught they were wide and vast.

IMO I'm thinking when Jesus taught and fed 5 thousand people on the side of a mountain, this could be per say the first mega church 5 thousand people in one location, another time 4 thousand in one place and hundreds and hundreds in other places.

I think it comes down to what people like and prefer, some like small churches were people can get into deep fellowship and others like to fellowship around a cup of coffee at a mega church, are this things really supposed to major issues, everyone learns a little different than the next, is it a good idea to say hey it's better if we hang out at my house and fellowship then going to that mega church were you like to have fellowship, is there a bible standard for fellowship. Where there are two or more gathered surely that can mean even be up to 5 thousand.

 

[Dai3234]

Is there really a biblical standard for congregational sizes, when I think of all the places Jesus taught they were wide and vast.

IMO I'm thinking when Jesus taught and fed 5 thousand people on the side of a mountain, this could be per say the first mega church 5 thousand people in one location, another time 4 thousand in one place and hundreds and hundreds in other places.

I think it comes down to what people like and prefer, some like small churches were people can get into deep fellowship and others like to fellowship around a cup of coffee at a mega church, are this things really supposed to major issues, everyone learns a little different than the next, is it a good idea to say hey it's better if we hang out at my house and fellowship then going to that mega church were you like to have fellowship, is there a bible standard for fellowship. Where there are two or more gathered surely that can mean even be up to 5 thousand.

I think your missing something. Jesus preached the gospel, then moved on. Evangelising. He didn't stay in one building for 40 years preaching to the same people.

The church is dying all over Europe and America. The model, man decided to use that is not biblical, doesn't work.

That's why 5% of Europe goes to church, apparently. When the Catholic, Islamic, Jehovah's and Mormons and charismatics are making gains, were losing.

Sinogogues are where the law teachers were located also. Jesus was there, but he visited and went to many, not one.

How many pastor's come to your home. How many do you know as friends. Francis Chan saw the issue. We're a joke to foreign non-western countries.

 

[Persuaded]

I think your missing something. Jesus preached the gospel, then moved on. Evangelising. He didn't stay in one building for 40 years preaching to the same people.

The church is dying all over Europe and America. The model, man decided to use that is not biblical, doesn't work.

That's why 5% of Europe goes to church, apparently. When the Catholic, Islamic, Jehovah's and Mormons and charismatics are making gains, were losing.

Sinogogues are where the law teachers were located also. Jesus was there, but he visited and went to many, not one.

How many pastor's come to your home. How many do you know as friends. Francis Chan saw the issue. We're a joke to foreign non-western countries.

Surely you are not condemning me because I have served as pastor of the same church for 30 years.

 

[graceNpeace]

I think your missing something. Jesus preached the gospel, then moved on. Evangelising. He didn't stay in one building for 40 years preaching to the same people.

The church is dying all over Europe and America. The model, man decided to use that is not biblical, doesn't work.

That's why 5% of Europe goes to church, apparently. When the Catholic, Islamic, Jehovah's and Mormons and charismatics are making gains, were losing.

Sinogogues are where the law teachers were located also. Jesus was there, but he visited and went to many, not one.

How many pastor's come to your home. How many do you know as friends. Francis Chan saw the issue. We're a joke to foreign non-western countries.

While you are correct in your assessment that something is not right in most western churches it is also clear by your analysis that you don't really understand the doctrine of the church (ecclesiology), church history, nor the history and current practice of missions.

If you are really interested in addressing this issue, and it is a real one, then you owe it to yourself to learn, properly, where we came from (from the perspective of church) in order to be able to contribute appropriately to charting a course for the church into the future.
If you don't really understand where you came from then trying to figure out how to get to the destination is actually impossible!

Yes, you have cottoned-on to a problem, now your task is to properly investigate the roots of the problem as well as look at contemporary solutions (based on sound Biblical principle).

 

[Magenta]

I do not attend a pulpit church. My pastor's wife has been to my place, and I have been invited to theirs' many times over the last few years since he became our pastor, and the same for our original pastor, who was called away and returned to Kansas. We have other fellowship occasions outside of our church congregation meeting space as well.

Ours is a gospel teaching, Bible centered church. We are growing. Don't forget that the number of believers in the church of Acts grew to five thousand people in one day! And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. How can you stay in someone's living room under such conditions?

Also, Jesus may have attended several synagogues but there have only been two Temples.

There were two Jewish temples: the first was built by King Solomon in about 960 BCE, and was destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 BCE. The second was built by the returning Jewish exiles (who had been taken to Babylon [modern Iraq] by the Babylonians, but were freed by the Persians in 539 BCE), roughly around 515 BCE. This second Temple was extended and beautified by King Herod the Great (reigned 37-4 BCE). It was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE. Jews who follow Orthodox tradition (and some Conservative/masorti Jews) hope for the rebuilding of the Third Temple when the messiah comes. How many Jewish temples

 

[Dai3234]

Surely you are not condemning me because I have served as pastor of the same church for 30 years.

Of course not. It's me saying, are you living and sharing with a small congregation, all your wealth and learning/teaching/evangelising? Or are you being trained to go on training weeks, seminaries, and buy bigger buildings every decade because you gain 20 people every decade and the church is too small.

If you died, would your church collapse. Or do you have 5 pastor's teaching a house church each, see my point. We're too resistant to buy a big house with the "elders" and live creating new pastor's from the house, then splitting up and creating new house churches, costing nothing.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Works of the flesh

Paul tells us this in the 5th Chapter of Galatians. The entire Book of Galatians, but especially the 5th Chapter, is a warning from Paul to the Church at Galatia, which is also meant for us. The warning is that if they place their faith in anything except “Christ and Him Crucified,” that “Christ shall profit you nothing” (Gal. 5:2).

The Apostle goes on to say that if the Believer doesn’t adhere to the Way of the Spirit, which is the Way of the Cross, then works of the flesh will manifest themselves. He said:

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God” (Gal. 5:19-21).

Now let me say it again, because it is so very important:
If the Believer doesn’t understand the Cross of Christ, as it regards Sanctification, then, in some way, one or more of these “works of the flesh” are going to manifest themselves in his life. As stated, such is inevitable! The first four, “Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, and lasciviousness,” are obvious and easily understood. But the modern Christian quickly dismisses “idolatry, witchcraft, and heresies,” thinking they do not really apply today.

Let us address that:
First of all, any suggested way of victory other than the Cross of Christ, such as the “Purpose Driven Life,” the “Government of Twelve,” the “Word of Faith,” or “Denominationalism,” etc., constitutes idolatry. In effect, it is the same as Old Testament times, when Israel would begin to worship idols instead of Jehovah. To be sure, Israel actually referred to these idols as Jehovah; but the Lord definitely did not look at it in the same manner! And neither does He look any differently at modern idolatry!
Furthermore, all of this constitutes “heresies,” in which the modern Church abounds.

Let me say it more clearly:
Any doctrine, way, scheme, or direction made up by men, which means it is devised by men and not by God, is constituted by the Lord as “heresy,” which is a “work of the flesh.” Let me say it again, and because it is so very, very important! Any way other than “Christ and Him Crucified” is, in the eyes of God, “heresy.” Once one begins to understand these “works of the flesh,” these things become more obvious.

The Message of the Cross - Pastor Jimmy Swaggart

 

[Nehemiah6]

WHAT IS A BIBLICAL CHURCH.

A biblical church is one which follows the New Testament pattern, and for an overview of a biblical church you should go to The Acts of the Apostles and study chapter 2. Here is what we find:

CHRIST IS PREACHED, AND HIM CRUCIFIED
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

THE HOLY SPIRIT CONVICTS SINNERS
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?



38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, evenas many as the Lord our God shall call.
40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.



Do any exist?[/QUOTE]

 

[Nehemiah6]

A biblical church is one which follows the New Testament pattern, and for an overview of a biblical church you should go to The Acts of the Apostles and study chapter 2. Here is what we find:

CHRIST IS PREACHED, AND HIM CRUCIFIED
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

THE HOLY SPIRIT CONVICTS SINNERS
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

REPENTANCE AND THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ARE PREACHED
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

THE PROMISE OF ETERNAL LIFE IS PREACHED
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, evenas many as the Lord our God shall call.

THE FULL AND TRUE GOSPEL IS PREACHED
40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

SINNERS ARE CONVERTED AND BAPTIZED IMMEDIATELY
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

SAINTS CONTINUE STEADFASTLY IN BIBLE DOCTRINE, FELLOWSHIP, THE LORD'S SUPPER, AND PRAYERS
42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

THE WORLD IS SERIOUSLY AFFECTED BY WHAT HAPPENS
43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

BELIEVERS ARE TOGETHER AND SHARE EVERYTHING
44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

BELIEVERS ARE DAILY IN ONE ACCORD
46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

BELIEVERS PRAISE GOD AND GOD ADDS TO THE CHURCH DAILY
47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Do any exist?

There are very few that follow the NT pattern.

 

[Denadii]

Hello, getting confused and annoyed again.
Now I'm thinking it's nearly impossible for anyone to be a Christian, as I've seen a well explained video about how all pulpit church models are basically teaching the same as Catholic principles, and the video seems correct.

E,g, grace to you, cross conference, or charismatic health & wealth. Giant buildings, millions of dollars, yet totally different churches etc. House churches like Francis chans seem biblical.

So if their are basically next to zero, of these churches, how is anyone supposed to be a Christian??? Sometimes I think it would have been better if God never thought of earth. And most of you probably go to a pulpit church also. Hardly any fellowship, though Americans have more than in UK.
I've not even been able to get or find free religious footage for evangelising DVDs, don't know if God picked the right person.

WHAT IS A BIBLICAL CHURCH. Do any exist?

You MUST understand, Dai, that your Christianity, your personal relationship, has NOTHING to do with churches or other people. Your relationship is with Jesus, or you are not a Christian. A Christian, you already know, is one who follows Jesus. So, follow Jesus. His teachings, His example. Stay in His Word, ask the Holy Spirit to teach you too. That part is vital. If you find a church that does the same, Great. If not you are still not alone. You have the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit with you all the time. And if you trust them, they will not let you fall.

 

[Dai3234]

A biblical church is one which follows the New Testament pattern, and for an overview of a biblical church you should go to The Acts of the Apostles and study chapter 2. Here is what we find:

CHRIST IS PREACHED, AND HIM CRUCIFIED
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

THE HOLY SPIRIT CONVICTS SINNERS
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

REPENTANCE AND THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ARE PREACHED
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

THE PROMISE OF ETERNAL LIFE IS PREACHED
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, evenas many as the Lord our God shall call.

THE FULL AND TRUE GOSPEL IS PREACHED
40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

SINNERS ARE CONVERTED AND BAPTIZED IMMEDIATELY
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

SAINTS CONTINUE STEADFASTLY IN BIBLE DOCTRINE, FELLOWSHIP, THE LORD'S SUPPER, AND PRAYERS
42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

THE WORLD IS SERIOUSLY AFFECTED BY WHAT HAPPENS
43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

BELIEVERS ARE TOGETHER AND SHARE EVERYTHING
44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

BELIEVERS ARE DAILY IN ONE ACCORD
46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

BELIEVERS PRAISE GOD AND GOD ADDS TO THE CHURCH DAILY
47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.



There are very few that follow the NT pattern.

That's my point, that's what Francis Chan seems to be saying about why he sold his megachurch. He moved to house growing ministries that cost nothing. Creating many pastor's and more house churches. Seems more biblical with more support and fellowship etc. More equal Bible discussion.

If I had my own place I'd think of doing something like that, but in not rich enough for my own property. Also, in not a pastor etc, and would just be fellowship, evangelism and study. More than now though.

Doesn't this seem better, cheaper, more productive and filters groups into strong and weak believers, growing better Christians?

 

[Denadii]

That's my point, that's what Francis Chan seems to be saying about why he sold his megachurch. He moved to house growing ministries that cost nothing. Creating many pastor's and more house churches. Seems more biblical with more support and fellowship etc. More equal Bible discussion.

If I had my own place I'd think of doing something like that, but in not rich enough for my own property. Also, in not a pastor etc, and would just be fellowship, evangelism and study. More than now though.

Doesn't this seem better, cheaper, more productive and filters groups into strong and weak believers, growing better Christians?

Understand...I am not telling you to do this. I am not a pastor, I'm a driver. Retired.. Now I'm a writer...Ok?... Not even related to being a pastor....I did start a home group once, in another town. My only major rule was. The Holy Spirit leads. Not me, not you...for an example of that...one lady came in one evening and told me. "I would like to sing tonight." I replied..."If the Holy Spirit leads you to sing, then sing. If He does not, don't sing." She did not sing. So I asked her later..."You did not sing." Her reply..."He did not lead me to sing." I was relieved on two counts that night. LOL She did not sing. Oh praise God! and she was not offended at anyone. She learned and grew though.
Anyway. At this group many people got healed, saved, and set free. What ended it though was, The people came up with a bright idea and I lacked experience to deal with it. They voted to join a church, they did and the group died as an entity. Also that church died as and entity... I kind of blame myself for that, My lack of experience and not all that good, at the time, at hearing God's voice.

My point is though. You don't need to be a pastor if you rely on the Holy Spirit to guide the service...You DO need to be sensitive to Him, and obedient to Him as well. And take advantage of His wisdom. Learn to recognize His voice.