The Trinity Discussion

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Jul 26, 2017
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All your ideas were proven wrong. You have no response. You just wait for a while, then return and repeat what was already proven wrong.

So what should he be frightened of?

Who He? He be who? Is he one be who or three be who? Just tell me, is he claiming the trinity is true?

How ridiculous to claim that the scripture in Philippians proves Jesus considered himself equal to God Almighty. Jesus was in the form (Image) of God when he was created, so w hat is Being said.

There are many different versions of this one scripture in different Bibles, If you keep looking you will find one that agrees with any mind set.

This is the interpretation I accept:

Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus,+ [SUP]6 [/SUP] who, although he was existing in God’s form,+ gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

I would allow anyone to challenge the interpretation work that has gone into the NWT.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
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Who He? He be who? Is he one be who or three be who? Just tell me, is he claiming the trinity is true?

How ridiculous to claim that the scripture in Philippians proves Jesus considered himself equal to God Almighty.
1. Jesus is God:
"the Word was God" J 1:1
"But about the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever'." (Heb 1:8)
"...we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." (1J 5:20)

2. Jesus is almighty:
"And Jesus came and said to them, saying: "All power in heaven and on the earth is given to me"."
"For to us a child is born...And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Is 9:6
"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen." R 9:5

==> Conclusion: Jesus is almighty God.


Now, do not answer it as is your habit, go to silence and return after few days saying again your error that Jesus is not God or almighty.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Originally Posted by valiant
Brinson is a JW who is here to cause trouble
I laugh every time I see this frightened message. what is is that you are afraid of with the JWs, are they too close to the truth for you?
No but I fear that Hell awaits you. You have invented your own Bible, and twisted the message of Jesus Christ beyond recognition, as you go around trying to sell your stupid books which have to be regularly changed with your changing doctrine,.


Do they show that pagan ritual is rife in the religions of Christendom?
They show that Pagan ritual is alive in JW-ism

Do they show how Satan is the ruler of the world and he will be destroyed with all the wicked ones on earth when Jehovah is ready to extract revenge?
As Satan's right hand men you hide the truth about Satan, while revealing his error in your teachings.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Who He? He be who? Is he one be who or three be who?
Try to grow up

Just tell me, is he claiming the trinity is true?
if he is wise he is.

How ridiculous to claim that the scripture in Philippians proves Jesus considered himself equal to God Almighty.
As indeed it does,

Jesus was in the form (Image) of God when he was created,
Being in the form of God means precisely what it SAYS. He was, in His form, as God. He thus could not be created,

so what is Being said?.
That He was God,

There are many different versions of this one scripture in different Bibles, If you keep looking you will find one that agrees with any mind set.
so that is what you have done? The New world translation is a perversion,

This is the interpretation I accept:
you mean this is the perversion that you JWs follow

Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, [SUP]6 [/SUP] who, although he was existing in God’s form,+ gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.
lol this perversion would give anyone a seizure. But it does not say that, it says 'He did not think it robbery to be equal with God,' In other words, equality with God was His rightful position.

He goes on to point out that He will receive the name above every name, the name of Yahweh, and that for that reason all will call Him LORD (LXX for Yahweh).


I would allow anyone to challenge the interpretation work that has gone into the NWT.
As a Greek scholar I shudder at it. But I'm pleased that you call it an interpretation and not a translation,
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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So what are you really saying or are you like a politician where, if you can't think of what to say you just say anything.

The question I was going to ask you is this? Is the same being who multiplied Abraham's descendants at Genesis 17 the same being who multiplied Hagar's descendants at Genesis 16? The answer of course is yes. Now what are going to tell me bronson? :eek:


This is one of your problems, amongst many, you do not ask a question you make your own statement, so what is the point of me reading all your stuff only to see you have already made the decision...Again I refer you to JW.org.
Don't make me laugh bronson. Me "frightened?" I've forgotten more about the Jw teachings than you know. You people go door to door all dressed up real nice (even with your children to give you credibility) preying on innocent people to draw them to your heretical and non biblical organization and not to Jesus Christ.

Also telling everyone that your the only ones going door to door preaching about Jehovahs Kingdom which is not true. Mormons go door to door and so do I as well as many other churches. You then have the Watchtower or Awake magazine in your hand and start out the conversation with something about how bad conditions are in the world etc.

Then when you meet someone who knows their bible and knows what their talking about you give up and say, "we have to go." This usually takes place on a Sunday morning at about 10:00 to 10:45 in the morning. It also takes place during the week. Anyway bronson, I'm going to accept your challenge where you said the NWT is the most accurate. I think I'll start a thread on that topic, what say you, are you up for it or are you going to just refer everyone to the "jw.org" site because your unable to defend your beliefs and think for yourself? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Jul 26, 2017
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1. Jesus is God:
"the Word was God" J 1:1
"But about the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever'." (Heb 1:8)
"...we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." (1J 5:20)

2. Jesus is almighty:
"And Jesus came and said to them, saying: "All power in heaven and on the earth is given to me"."
"For to us a child is born...And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Is 9:6
"Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen." R 9:5

==> Conclusion: Jesus is almighty God.


Now, do not answer it as is your habit, go to silence and return after few days saying again your error that Jesus is not God or almighty.
1:
"And Jesus came and said to them, saying: "All power in heaven and on the earth is given to me" Who gave Jesus this power?
“Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Deuteronomy 6:4.
“You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Psalm 83:18.
“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3.
“God is only one.”—Galatians 3:20.

It is important for you to know the truth about Jesus. Why? Because the Bible says: “This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3) Yes, really coming to know Jehovah God and Jesus Christ can lead to everlasting life on a paradise earth. (John 14:6) Furthermore, Jesus sets the best example of how to live and how to treat others.

Who would not want anyone to know the truth about Jesus and his Heavenly Father? The simple answer is Satan.

I am not hiding, I just get bored with the blind passion that some have about such a big pagan lie.



 
Jul 26, 2017
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Don't make me laugh bronson. Me "frightened?" I've forgotten more about the Jw teachings than you know. You people go door to door all dressed up real nice (even with your children to give you credibility) preying on innocent people to draw them to your heretical and non biblical organization and not to Jesus Christ.

Also telling everyone that your the only ones going door to door preaching about Jehovahs Kingdom which is not true. Mormons go door to door and so do I as well as many other churches. You then have the Watchtower or Awake magazine in your hand and start out the conversation with something about how bad conditions are in the world etc.

Then when you meet someone who knows their bible and knows what their talking about you give up and say, "we have to go." This usually takes place on a Sunday morning at about 10:00 to 10:45 in the morning. It also takes place during the week. Anyway bronson, I'm going to accept your challenge where you said the NWT is the most accurate. I think I'll start a thread on that topic, what say you, are you up for it or are you going to just refer everyone to the "jw.org" site because your unable to defend your beliefs and think for yourself? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
If you know so much ab out the JW's it tells me why you are frightened. I will allow you your opinion, but I do not have to accept it. You are now at the usual stage of beating your own drum and if you cannot find real scriptural references to back up your bile, you invent them.

I really am bored with your baiting as it is only for argumentative purposes and does no one any good. So carry on with your insults at the JWs they can look after themselves and they have the Almighty God behind them.

I don’t know what all your goading is about, it just shows a lack of intelligence and a poor ability to debate.
 
Jul 26, 2017
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No but I fear that Hell awaits you. You have invented your own Bible, and twisted the message of Jesus Christ beyond recognition, as you go around trying to sell your stupid books which have to be regularly changed with your changing doctrine,.




They show that Pagan ritual is alive in JW-ism



As Satan's right hand men you hide the truth about Satan, while revealing his error in your teachings.
I refer to the JW's and you refer everything to me, you odd angry perverted in mind little person. You do not know what it is to be a JW nor a Christian, so go take your pills and see if they give you some happy times.
 
Jul 26, 2017
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Try to grow up



if he is wise he is.



As indeed it does,



Being in the form of God means precisely what it SAYS. He was, in His form, as God. He thus could not be created,



That He was God,



so that is what you have done? The New world translation is a perversion,



you mean this is the perversion that you JWs follow



lol this perversion would give anyone a seizure. But it does not say that, it says 'He did not think it robbery to be equal with God,' In other words, equality with God was His rightful position.

He goes on to point out that He will receive the name above every name, the name of Yahweh, and that for that reason all will call Him LORD (LXX for Yahweh).




As a Greek scholar I shudder at it. But I'm pleased that you call it an interpretation and not a translation,
even if you should be as your trumpet, go and find the true reading of John 1:1. or try and refute this:

THAT question has to be considered when Bible translators handle the first verse of the Gospel of John. In the New World Translation, the verse is rendered: “In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” (John 1:1) Some other translations render the last part of the verse to convey the thought that the Word was “divine,” or something similar. (A New Translation of the Bible, by James Moffatt; The New English Bible) Many translations, however, render the last part of John 1:1: “And the Word was God.”—The Holy Bible—New International Version; The Jerusalem Bible.
Greek grammar and the context strongly indicate that the New World Translation rendering is correct and that “the Word” should not be identified as the “God” referred to earlier in the verse. Nevertheless, the fact that the Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”) leaves the matter open to question in some minds. It is for this reason that a Bible translation in a language that was spoken in the earliest centuries of our Common Era is very interesting.
The language is the Sahidic dialect of Coptic. The Coptic language was spoken in Egypt in the centuries immediately following Jesus’ earthly ministry, and the Sahidic dialect was an early literary form of the language. Regarding the earliest Coptic translations of the Bible, The Anchor Bible Dictionary says: “Since the [Septuagint] and the [Christian Greek Scriptures] were being translated into Coptic during the 3d century C.E., the Coptic version is based on [Greek manuscripts] which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant witnesses.”
The Sahidic Coptic text is especially interesting for two reasons. First, as indicated above, it reflects an understanding of Scripture dating from before the fourth century, which was when the Trinity became official doctrine. Second, Coptic grammar is relatively close to English grammar in one important aspect. The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of those days, do not have an indefinite article. Coptic, however, does. Moreover, scholar Thomas O. Lambdin, in his work Introduction to Sahidic Coptic, says: “The use of the Coptic articles, both definite and indefinite, corresponds closely to the use of the articles in English.”
Hence, the Coptic translation supplies interesting evidence as to how John 1:1 would have been understood back then. What do we find? The Sahidic Coptic translation uses an indefinite article with the word “god” in the final part of John 1:1. Thus, when rendered into modern English, the translation reads: “And the Word was a god.” Evidently, those ancient translators realized that John’s words recorded at John 1:1 did not mean that Jesus was to be identified as Almighty God. The Word was a god, not Almighty God.

Paul was described in the Christian Greek scriptures as "a" god. Does your brilliance as a Greek scholar find that interesting or is the sand too think?

 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,026
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even if you should be as your trumpet, go and find the true reading of John 1:1. or try and refute this:

THAT question has to be considered when Bible translators handle the first verse of the Gospel of John. In the New World Translation, the verse is rendered: “In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” (John 1:1) Some other translations render the last part of the verse to convey the thought that the Word was “divine,” or something similar. (A New Translation of the Bible, by James Moffatt; The New English Bible) Many translations, however, render the last part of John 1:1: “And the Word was God.”—The Holy Bible—New International Version; The Jerusalem Bible.
Greek grammar and the context strongly indicate that the New World Translation rendering is correct and that “the Word” should not be identified as the “God” referred to earlier in the verse. Nevertheless, the fact that the Greek language of the first century did not have an indefinite article (“a” or “an”) leaves the matter open to question in some minds. It is for this reason that a Bible translation in a language that was spoken in the earliest centuries of our Common Era is very interesting.
The language is the Sahidic dialect of Coptic. The Coptic language was spoken in Egypt in the centuries immediately following Jesus’ earthly ministry, and the Sahidic dialect was an early literary form of the language. Regarding the earliest Coptic translations of the Bible, The Anchor Bible Dictionary says: “Since the [Septuagint] and the [Christian Greek Scriptures] were being translated into Coptic during the 3d century C.E., the Coptic version is based on [Greek manuscripts] which are significantly older than the vast majority of extant witnesses.”
The Sahidic Coptic text is especially interesting for two reasons. First, as indicated above, it reflects an understanding of Scripture dating from before the fourth century, which was when the Trinity became official doctrine. Second, Coptic grammar is relatively close to English grammar in one important aspect. The earliest translations of the Christian Greek Scriptures were into Syriac, Latin, and Coptic. Syriac and Latin, like the Greek of those days, do not have an indefinite article. Coptic, however, does. Moreover, scholar Thomas O. Lambdin, in his work Introduction to Sahidic Coptic, says: “The use of the Coptic articles, both definite and indefinite, corresponds closely to the use of the articles in English.”
Hence, the Coptic translation supplies interesting evidence as to how John 1:1 would have been understood back then. What do we find? The Sahidic Coptic translation uses an indefinite article with the word “god” in the final part of John 1:1. Thus, when rendered into modern English, the translation reads: “And the Word was a god.” Evidently, those ancient translators realized that John’s words recorded at John 1:1 did not mean that Jesus was to be identified as Almighty God. The Word was a god, not Almighty God.

Paul was described in the Christian Greek scriptures as "a" god. Does your brilliance as a Greek scholar find that interesting or is the sand too think?
Yea bronson, why don' you tell the rest of the story from Acts 14:11-15? Like how the Apostle Paul and Barnabas tore off their clothes and said that have the same nature as other men. So what's your point? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,026
506
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If you know so much ab out the JW's it tells me why you are frightened. I will allow you your opinion, but I do not have to accept it. You are now at the usual stage of beating your own drum and if you cannot find real scriptural references to back up your bile, you invent them.

I really am bored with your baiting as it is only for argumentative purposes and does no one any good. So carry on with your insults at the JWs they can look after themselves and they have the Almighty God behind them.

I don’t know what all your goading is about, it just shows a lack of intelligence and a poor ability to debate.
Well that's to bad broson, because I'm not going away. Your the one that's scared, why else are "whistling in the dark hoping the dark will go away?" And btw, do you have Almighty God behind you? If you think you do how come you can't answser simple Sunday School questions? Debate, what debate? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Jul 26, 2017
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Yea bronson, why don' you tell the rest of the story from Acts 14:11-15? Like how the Apostle Paul and Barnabas tore off their clothes and said that have the same nature as other men. So what's your point? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
'a' god as in John1"1 OH! Great Scholarly one.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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1:
"And Jesus came and said to them, saying: "All power in heaven and on the earth is given to me" Who gave Jesus this power?
“Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Deuteronomy 6:4.
“You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Psalm 83:18.
“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3.
“God is only one.”—Galatians 3:20.

It is important for you to know the truth about Jesus. Why? Because the Bible says: “This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3) Yes, really coming to know Jehovah God and Jesus Christ can lead to everlasting life on a paradise earth. (John 14:6) Furthermore, Jesus sets the best example of how to live and how to treat others.

Who would not want anyone to know the truth about Jesus and his Heavenly Father? The simple answer is Satan.

I am not hiding, I just get bored with the blind passion that some have about such a big pagan lie.



Yes, the Son is from the Father. But not created, begotten. They are so united that they are one being, one God, even though their personalities are different.
 
Jul 26, 2017
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Yes, the Son is from the Father. But not created, begotten. They are so united that they are one being, one God, even though their personalities are different.

God created Jesus before he created Adam. Regarding Jesus, the apostle Paul wrote: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” (Colossians 1:15) Jesus’ life began long before he was born in a stable in Bethlehem. In fact, the Bible says that his “origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.” (Micah 5:2) As God’s firstborn Son, Jesus was a spirit creature in heaven before he was born as a human on earth. Jesus himself said: “I have come down from heaven.”—John 6:38; 8:23.

[h=2]Revelation 4:11[/h]
[SUP]11 [/SUP] “You are worthy, Jehovah* our God, to receive the glory+ and the honor+ and the power,+ because you created all things,+ and because of your will they came into existence and were created.”
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
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God created Jesus before he created Adam. Regarding Jesus, the apostle Paul wrote: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” (Colossians 1:15) Jesus’ life began long before he was born in a stable in Bethlehem. In fact, the Bible says that his “origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.” (Micah 5:2) As God’s firstborn Son, Jesus was a spirit creature in heaven before he was born as a human on earth. Jesus himself said: “I have come down from heaven.”—John 6:38; 8:23.

[h=2]Revelation 4:11[/h]
[SUP]11 [/SUP] “You are worthy, Jehovah* our God, to receive the glory+ and the honor+ and the power,+ because you created all things,+ and because of your will they came into existence and were created.”
No, Jesus was not created, He was begotten.

It is unique and very different from creation, for example the creation of angels:
“For to which of the angels did He ever say: ‘You are My Son, today I have begotten You’?” (Heb. 1:5).

Also, Jesus was not "the first one created", He actually is the one who created everything.
"For by him [Christ] all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. "
Col 1:16

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." Col 2:15
- this does not mean that he was first created, it means he was first born. Christians are born of God too, but later. He was first.

And, BTW, there is no word "Jehovah" in Rev 4:11 , do not make your own Scriptures. And if you get back three verses, you will get that Jesus is God Almighty.
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "'Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,' who was, and is, and is to come."
 
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tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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God created Jesus before he created Adam. Regarding Jesus, the apostle Paul wrote: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” (Colossians 1:15) ...
Born, but not created. Before time...He begets me, as the LXX says (Prov.8:22-25).
 
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Jul 26, 2017
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I am sure that others see that this is going nowhere, I do not expect you to believe as I do, so out of common courtesy do not expect me to believe your stuff.

I am going to move on now, maybe to more interesting discussions, so if you wish you can be as nasty as you wish, I wont be watching.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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1:
"And Jesus came and said to them, saying: "All power in heaven and on the earth is given to me" Who gave Jesus this power?


It was given by the one God, Father. Son and Holy Spirit.

And notice it was ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH. Are you suggesting that such could be given to anyone but God.?

“Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Deuteronomy 6:4.
And Jesus IS Yahweh. He has the Name above every Name (Phil 2.9). He is the One to Whom every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess (Phil 2.10; cf Isaiah 45.23).

He is the One of Whom it is said, 'Isaiah saw His glory and spoke of Him' (John 12.41 cf Isaiah 6).


You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Psalm 83:18.

Yes, Jesus is YAHWEH,

This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3.​


Yes Yahweh (Father , Son and Holy Spirit) sent Him forth as their representative,​


 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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I am sure that others see that this is going nowhere, I do not expect you to believe as I do, so out of common courtesy do not expect me to believe your stuff.

I am going to move on now, maybe to more interesting discussions, so if you wish you can be as nasty as you wish, I wont be watching.
[Some nasty post about Bronson]
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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even if you should be a Greek scholar, go and find the true reading of John 1:1. or try and refute this:

THAT question has to be considered when Bible translators handle the first verse of the Gospel of John. In the New World Translation, the verse is rendered: “In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.” (John 1:1) Some other translations render the last part of the verse to convey the thought that the Word was “divine,” or something similar. (A New Translation of the Bible, by James Moffatt; The New English Bible) Many translations, however, render the last part of John 1:1: “And the Word was God.”—The Holy Bible—New International Version; The Jerusalem Bible.
Greek grammar and the context strongly indicate that the New World Translation rendering is correct and that “the Word” should not be identified as the “God” referred to earlier in the verse.
'The Word was what God was.' The verb 'to be' takes the same case after it as before it. Thus the only way to show which is the subject and which the predicate is by putting the article on the subject. If it had said ho logos en ho theos either could have been the subject.

Furthermore if both bear the article it is saying that the one is the same as the other. Thus the Word was 'the whole of God', or 'God was the same as the Word'.

in order to present the truth that 'the Word was of the nature of God but not the whole of God' it had to be written as we have it.

The predicate brings out the nature of the subject. Thus NEB translates as 'what God was the Word was'.

The sentence would be quite clear to any Greek reader, the New World perversion shows their ignorance of Greek
 
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