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Thread: The Trinity Discussion

  1. #1
    Junior Member MarkHasFaith's Avatar
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    Default The Trinity Discussion

    Any one care to share their thoughts, also from the word of why you believe that the trinity is the right way to view God? or even if you do not believe it and care to say why.
    I myself do not believe the doctrine of the trinity, but I am not against those that do, nor do I believe it's dependent on a person's salvation.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Scripture PLAINLY, EXPLICITLY, and IRREVOCABLY states that Jesus is God.

    Read John Chapter one. Here are a couple of the very relevant parts:

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    We probably most of us know that by heart. How can it be overlooked? Then verse 14,

    The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

    1:1-18 - John’s Introduction
    John begins by identifying his claims regarding who Jesus is. The introduction of John’s gospel immediately introduces the major themes that John intends to discuss. Then he spends the rest of the book proving and demonstrating these themes from the life and teaching of Jesus.

    Major doctrines or truths regarding Jesus stated in John 1:1-18:1.
    Jesus is eternal and uncreated, existing before the world began (1:1-3).2. Jesus possesses Deity (absolute authority and rulership over created things – 1:1).3. Jesus is a separate Being from the Father (1:1,2,18).

    4. Jesus is the Creator – the active force through Whom all things were made (1:3,10).

    5. Jesus is the source of truth and understanding of God’s will (1:4,5,14,17,18).

    6. Jesus is the source of life by which men have a relationship with God and hope of eternal life (1:4).

    7. Jesus became incarnate in the flesh as a man (1:14,9,10)

    8. Jesus was rejected by men (1:10,11).

    9. Jesus is the One who can give people power to become children of God (1:12).

    Study Notes on John1:1,2 – The Word was in the beginning with God and was God. The “Word” refers to Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God, as shown by verses 14,17. “In the beginning” must refer to the beginning of creation, as in Genesis 1:1. That this is the meaning is confirmed in v3 showing that Jesus is the Creator. So Jesus existed from eternity with the Father. Note that the use of “was” shows that Jesus already was in existence when the Creation occurred. This simultaneously proves both that Jesus possesses Deity and He is a separate and distinct living Being from the Father.

    The Word was “with God” in that Jesus was present in the beginning with the Father (see v3; Compare 1 John 1:2) – so, He is a separate individual living Being from the Father. But He also “was God” in that He Himself possessed Deity. To say there is one God is not necessarily to say there is only one individual Being that possesses Deity. Jesus affirmed that He and His Father are “one” as all believers are to be one (John 17:20,21) – not one individual, but one in purpose, goal, doctrine, etc.

    The term “god” refers to that which possesses all the characteristics of Deity and therefore deserves to be worshiped and honored as God. The true God of the Bible is one God, but consists of three separate and distinct individual Beings, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They all possess unlimited power over the created things, all are eternal and unlimited in wisdom, goodness, love, etc.

    There may be some differences among them regarding their relationship to one another, but regarding their relationship to created beings, they are all the same. There is no difference to us whether it is the Father who tells us a matter, or the Son, or the Spirit. These three are “one” in contrast to the heathen deities that possessed different characteristics, different wills, different degrees and areas of power, and often even warred and contradicted one another.

    Some claim Jesus is “a god,” but not God like the Father is God. Some, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses, argue that the Greek “was God” has no definite article before “God,” whereas there is a definite article in “with God.” So, it is claimed that Jesus is god in a lesser sense, different from the Father. So, the “New World Translation” says, “the word was a god.” However,(1) All major standard translations say, “the Word was God.” None say “a god.” So, they contradict the NWT. (See NKJV, KJV, ASV,NASB, RSV, NIV, etc.)

    (2) If Jesus is “god” in a lesser sense than the Father, then we would have two different true gods! Clearly, Jesus is not a false god; so, He must possess true Deity. But if He is “god” in a different sense from the Father, that would violate the passages saying there is one true God! Study Notes on John Page #14

    (3) Many Scriptures use “God” without an article to refer to the true God. See Matthew 5:9; 6:24; Luke 1:35,78; John1:6,12,13,18; Romans 1:7,17; and many others.

    (4) Many Scriptures use “God” both with and without an article in the same context, yet both uses clearly refer to the true God. See Matthew 4:3,4; 12:28; Luke 20:37,38; John 3:2; 13:3; Acts5:29,30; Romans 1:7,8,17-19; 2:16,17; 3:5,22,23; 4:2,3; etc.

    (5) The context of John 1:1-3 shows that Jesus is eternal and created all things. (See our later discussion on the character and works of Jesus). To call Him “God” in such a context must surely mean He is God in the same exalted sense as the Father.

    (6) We will soon see other passages referring to Jesus as “God” using the definite article. If the NWT distinction is valid, then these passages must prove conclusively that Jesus is God in the same sense as the Father.So, John 1:1 refers to both Jesus and the Father as “God” in a context that affirms the eternal existence of Jesus and that He is the Creator of all(v1-3). This would be blasphemy if He does not possess Deity as the Father does. [Marshall, Vine, Vincent, Lenski, Robertson, and other Greek scholars contend that the article is absent from “was God” in John 1:1, not to imply that Jesus was a “lesser god,” but simply to identify “God” as the predicate nominative despite the fact it precedes the verb for emphasis (Colwell’s Rule). If it had the definite article, that would imply that “the Word” and the Father are the same person. In any case, the Scriptures listed above clearly show that the lack of the article does not prove Jesus is God in a lesser sense than the Father.]

    Other passages affirming Jesus’ Deity
    Colossians 2:9 “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (NKJV, KJV,ASV). Or: “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form” (NASB, RSV, NIV is similar). Hebrews 1:3 Jesus was “the express image of His [the Father’s] person” (NKJV,KJV) or “the very image of his substance” (ASV), “the exact representation of His nature” (NASB), “the exact representation of his being” (NIV). The context describes Jesus as the Creator, far above the angels so that He deserves to be worshipped. But only God is properly worshiped, so Jesus is God in the fullest sense of the word.

    God possesses certain characteristics that are so unique that no one but God can possess them (eternal, all-powerful, etc.). If no one but God possesses these, yet Jesus is the exact reproduction of the essence of God’s nature, then He must possess these qualities. But if Jesus possesses all qualities that are unique to God, He must be God: He must possess Deity.
    http://www.religionofjesuschrist.com...ospel/john.pdf


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    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

    Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”

    Revelation 1:17-18
    ; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

    Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
    2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

    Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by Himself alone)
    John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

    John 1:1-3- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made... 1:14- And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

    John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

    John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

    John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins.”

    John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

    John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

    John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

    John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

    John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!

    Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

    Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
    Revelation 1:5-6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)

    Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

    Colossians 2:9 - For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily

    1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

    Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

    Hebrews 1:8-9 - But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

    2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

    Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”

    1 Timothy 6:14-16 - “our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.”
    http://bugman123.com/Bible/JesusIsGod.html



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  4. #4
    Senior Member Tommy379's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    Scripture PLAINLY, EXPLICITLY, and IRREVOCABLY states that Jesus is God.

    Read John Chapter one. Here are a couple of the very relevant parts:

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    We probably most of us know that by heart. How can it be overlooked? Then verse 14,

    The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

    1:1-18 - John’s Introduction
    John begins by identifying his claims regarding who Jesus is. The introduction of John’s gospel immediately introduces the major themes that John intends to discuss. Then he spends the rest of the book proving and demonstrating these themes from the life and teaching of Jesus.

    Major doctrines or truths regarding Jesus stated in John 1:1-18:1.
    Jesus is eternal and uncreated, existing before the world began (1:1-3).2. Jesus possesses Deity (absolute authority and rulership over created things – 1:1).3. Jesus is a separate Being from the Father (1:1,2,18).

    4. Jesus is the Creator – the active force through Whom all things were made (1:3,10).

    5. Jesus is the source of truth and understanding of God’s will (1:4,5,14,17,18).

    6. Jesus is the source of life by which men have a relationship with God and hope of eternal life (1:4).

    7. Jesus became incarnate in the flesh as a man (1:14,9,10)

    8. Jesus was rejected by men (1:10,11).

    9. Jesus is the One who can give people power to become children of God (1:12).

    Study Notes on John1:1,2 – The Word was in the beginning with God and was God. The “Word” refers to Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God, as shown by verses 14,17. “In the beginning” must refer to the beginning of creation, as in Genesis 1:1. That this is the meaning is confirmed in v3 showing that Jesus is the Creator. So Jesus existed from eternity with the Father. Note that the use of “was” shows that Jesus already was in existence when the Creation occurred. This simultaneously proves both that Jesus possesses Deity and He is a separate and distinct living Being from the Father.

    The Word was “with God” in that Jesus was present in the beginning with the Father (see v3; Compare 1 John 1:2) – so, He is a separate individual living Being from the Father. But He also “was God” in that He Himself possessed Deity. To say there is one God is not necessarily to say there is only one individual Being that possesses Deity. Jesus affirmed that He and His Father are “one” as all believers are to be one (John 17:20,21) – not one individual, but one in purpose, goal, doctrine, etc.

    The term “god” refers to that which possesses all the characteristics of Deity and therefore deserves to be worshiped and honored as God. The true God of the Bible is one God, but consists of three separate and distinct individual Beings, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They all possess unlimited power over the created things, all are eternal and unlimited in wisdom, goodness, love, etc.

    There may be some differences among them regarding their relationship to one another, but regarding their relationship to created beings, they are all the same. There is no difference to us whether it is the Father who tells us a matter, or the Son, or the Spirit. These three are “one” in contrast to the heathen deities that possessed different characteristics, different wills, different degrees and areas of power, and often even warred and contradicted one another.

    Some claim Jesus is “a god,” but not God like the Father is God. Some, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses, argue that the Greek “was God” has no definite article before “God,” whereas there is a definite article in “with God.” So, it is claimed that Jesus is god in a lesser sense, different from the Father. So, the “New World Translation” says, “the word was a god.” However,(1) All major standard translations say, “the Word was God.” None say “a god.” So, they contradict the NWT. (See NKJV, KJV, ASV,NASB, RSV, NIV, etc.)

    (2) If Jesus is “god” in a lesser sense than the Father, then we would have two different true gods! Clearly, Jesus is not a false god; so, He must possess true Deity. But if He is “god” in a different sense from the Father, that would violate the passages saying there is one true God! Study Notes on John Page #14

    (3) Many Scriptures use “God” without an article to refer to the true God. See Matthew 5:9; 6:24; Luke 1:35,78; John1:6,12,13,18; Romans 1:7,17; and many others.

    (4) Many Scriptures use “God” both with and without an article in the same context, yet both uses clearly refer to the true God. See Matthew 4:3,4; 12:28; Luke 20:37,38; John 3:2; 13:3; Acts5:29,30; Romans 1:7,8,17-19; 2:16,17; 3:5,22,23; 4:2,3; etc.

    (5) The context of John 1:1-3 shows that Jesus is eternal and created all things. (See our later discussion on the character and works of Jesus). To call Him “God” in such a context must surely mean He is God in the same exalted sense as the Father.

    (6) We will soon see other passages referring to Jesus as “God” using the definite article. If the NWT distinction is valid, then these passages must prove conclusively that Jesus is God in the same sense as the Father.So, John 1:1 refers to both Jesus and the Father as “God” in a context that affirms the eternal existence of Jesus and that He is the Creator of all(v1-3). This would be blasphemy if He does not possess Deity as the Father does. [Marshall, Vine, Vincent, Lenski, Robertson, and other Greek scholars contend that the article is absent from “was God” in John 1:1, not to imply that Jesus was a “lesser god,” but simply to identify “God” as the predicate nominative despite the fact it precedes the verb for emphasis (Colwell’s Rule). If it had the definite article, that would imply that “the Word” and the Father are the same person. In any case, the Scriptures listed above clearly show that the lack of the article does not prove Jesus is God in a lesser sense than the Father.]

    Other passages affirming Jesus’ Deity
    Colossians 2:9 “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (NKJV, KJV,ASV). Or: “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form” (NASB, RSV, NIV is similar). Hebrews 1:3 Jesus was “the express image of His [the Father’s] person” (NKJV,KJV) or “the very image of his substance” (ASV), “the exact representation of His nature” (NASB), “the exact representation of his being” (NIV). The context describes Jesus as the Creator, far above the angels so that He deserves to be worshipped. But only God is properly worshiped, so Jesus is God in the fullest sense of the word.

    God possesses certain characteristics that are so unique that no one but God can possess them (eternal, all-powerful, etc.). If no one but God possesses these, yet Jesus is the exact reproduction of the essence of God’s nature, then He must possess these qualities. But if Jesus possesses all qualities that are unique to God, He must be God: He must possess Deity.
    http://www.religionofjesuschrist.com...ospel/john.pdf
    But in Matthew 17:20, Jesus said this:
    He replied, "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

    I dont think Jesus and God are the same entity. God is the father and Jesus is the son. This belief does not diminish Jesus's diety.

    Several places in the new testament, describes Jesus is at the right hand of God.
    Hungry and followjesus like this.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Magenta's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    I can no longer reply with quote Tommy said:

    I dont think Jesus and God are the same entity. God is the father
    and Jesus is the son. This belief does not diminish Jesus's diety.

    Tommy, is there more than ONE God?
    kaylagrl likes this.


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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

    Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”

    Revelation 1:17-18
    ; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

    Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
    2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

    Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by Himself alone)
    John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

    John 1:1-3- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made... 1:14- And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

    John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

    John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

    John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins.”

    John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

    John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

    John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

    John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

    John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!

    Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

    Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
    Revelation 1:5-6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)

    Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

    Colossians 2:9 - For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily

    1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

    Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

    Hebrews 1:8-9 - But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

    2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

    Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”

    1 Timothy 6:14-16 - “our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.”
    http://bugman123.com/Bible/JesusIsGod.html


    I really appreciate all the verses and scriptures, because that is what is important, so thank you for that.
    I actually do believe that Jesus is God, Iv'e always believed that, and when you actually study the word
    and meditate, it shows clearly that Jesus is God, just as he showed himself that he was God.
    I just don't believe the trinity. I don't believe God is 3 in 1 but just 1 being as God says of himself
    as also Deuteronomy 6:4 states and what is revealed from the old to the new testament.
    kaylagrl, Magenta and CherieR like this.

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkHasFaith View Post
    I myself do not believe the doctrine of the trinity, but I am not against those that do, nor do I believe it's dependent on a person's salvation.
    As a matter of fact no one can be saved unless they believe that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. If Jesus of Nazareth was anyone less than God, He could not possibly take away the sin of the world, nor could His blood be sufficient or efficient for our redemption. That is why we have this Scripture in the Bible (Acts 20:28): Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    Now the Bible makes it crystal clear that sinners are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH in Christ and His finished work of redemption. But the Bible also says that Abraham BELIEVED GOD and it was counted to him for righteousness. Now, the Bible is the written Word of God, so if we disbelieve the Bible we actually disbelieve God, therefore we cannot be saved. And what does God say about Jesus in John 1:1? In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Since Jesus is the Word who was made flesh and dwelt among us, and He is also God, you cannot have it both ways. You can either believe that Jesus is God (which already gives you two Persons in the Godhead) or you can die in your sins (as Christ told His enemies). He said to them I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins. (John 8:24)

    I AM is the name of God, so what Jesus said is that if you do not believe that I am God, you will die in your sins. We could also get into many Scriptures which show that the Holy Spirit is also God, but the matter of the deity of Christ is critical to salvation.
    Last edited by Nehemiah6; July 24th, 2017 at 02:22 AM.

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkHasFaith View Post
    Any one care to share their thoughts, also from the word of why you believe that the trinity is the right way to view God? or even if you do not believe it and care to say why.
    I myself do not believe the doctrine of the trinity, but I am not against those that do, nor do I believe it's dependent on a person's salvation.
    If the bible says God is not a man, he's not a man. If it also says God is spirit, then he is one spirit and one God.

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy379 View Post
    I dont think Jesus and God are the same entity. God is the father and Jesus is the son. This belief does not diminish Jesus's diety.
    We need to clear up a misunderstanding. There are three Divine Persons within the Godhead -- God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Three Persons yet one God, and that is "the Mystery of God". So if you mean that the Father and Son are not the same person but distinct Divine Persons, then that is fine. But that does not mean that Jesus is NOT God. It simply means that He is the God the Son (also called the Son of God) or simply "God".

    Please note that God the Father addresses the Son Jesus as God in both Testaments (Hebrews 1:8,9): But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Nehemiah6 said: I AM is the name of God, so what Jesus said is that if you do not believe that I am God, you will die in your sins. We could also get into many Scriptures which show that the Holy Spirit is also God, but the matter of the deity of Christ is critical to salvation.
    Excellent post (Please excuse the edit ) There are also a multitude of Scriptures that attest to the fact that God is the one and only Rock of salvation that pair with Jesus being the Rock of our salvation...

    Jesus is the Rock of our salvation. God is the only Rock of our salvation.

    Psalm 78:35
    And they remembered that God was their rock, And the Most High God their Redeemer.

    Genesis 49:24
    But his bow remained firm, And his arms were agile, From the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob (From there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel),


    Deuteronomy 32:15
    "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked-- You are grown fat, thick, and sleek-- Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.


    2 Samuel 23:3
    "The God of Israel said, The Rock of Israel spoke to me, 'He who rules over men righteously, Who rules in the fear of God,


    Psalm 42:9
    I will say to God my rock, "Why have You forgotten me? Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?"


    Isaiah 30:29
    You will have songs as in the night when you keep the festival, And gladness of heart as when one marches to the sound of the flute, To go to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.


    Habakkuk 1:12
    Are You not from everlasting, O LORD, my God, my Holy One? We will not die You, O LORD, have appointed them to judge; And You, O Rock, have established them to correct.


    2 Samuel 22:32
    "For who is God, besides the LORD? And who is a rock, besides our God?


    Psalm 18:31
    For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God,


    1 Samuel 2:2
    "There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.


    Isaiah 44:8
    'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.'"


    Deuteronomy 32:31
    "Indeed their rock is not like our Rock, Even our enemies themselves judge this.


    Deuteronomy 32:37
    "And He will say, 'Where are their gods, The rock in which they sought refuge?


    Psalm 144:1
    Blessed be the LORD, my rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle;


    Deuteronomy 32:4
    "The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.


    Psalm 92:15
    To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.


    Psalm 62:7
    On God my salvation and my glory rest; The rock of my strength, my refuge is in God.


    Psalm 28:1
    To You, O LORD, I call; My rock, do not be deaf to me, For if You are silent to me, I will become like those who go down to the pit.


    Psalm 31:1-3
    In You, O LORD, I have taken refuge; Let me never be ashamed; In Your righteousness deliver me. Incline Your ear to me, rescue me quickly; Be to me a rock of strength, A stronghold to save me. For You are my rock and my fortress; For Your name's sake You will lead me and guide me.


    Psalm 61:2
    From the end of the earth I call to You when my heart is faint; Lead me to the rock that is higher than I.


    Psalm 71:3
    Be to me a rock of habitation to which I may continually come; You have given commandment to save me, For You are my rock and my fortress.


    Isaiah 26:4
    "Trust in the LORD forever, For in GOD the LORD, we have an everlasting Rock.


    Psalm 94:22
    But the LORD has been my stronghold, And my God the rock of my refuge.


    2 Samuel 22:3
    My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; My savior, You save me from violence.


    Psalm 18:2
    The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.


    Psalm 95:1
    O come, let us sing for joy to the LORD, Let us shout joyfully to the rock of our salvation.


    2 Samuel 22:47
    "The LORD lives, and blessed be my rock; And exalted be God, the rock of my salvation,


    Psalm 18:46
    The LORD lives, and blessed be my rock; And exalted be the God of my salvation,


    Psalm 19:14
    Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer.


    Psalm 62:2
    He only is my rock and my salvation, My stronghold; I shall not be greatly shaken.


    Psalm 89:26
    "He will cry to Me, 'You are my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.'


    Isaiah 17:10
    For you have forgotten the God of your salvation And have not remembered the rock of your refuge. Therefore you plant delightful plants And set them with vine slips of a strange god.


    Isaiah 8:14
    "Then He shall become a sanctuary; But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over, And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.


    Isaiah 28:16
    Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed.


    Psalm 118:22
    The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief corner stone.


    To be cont'd
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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Matthew 21:42
    Jesus said to them,
    "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone; THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?

    Mark 12:10

    "Have you not even read this Scripture: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;


    Luke 20:17
    But Jesus looked at them and said,
    "What then is this that is written: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone'?

    Acts 4:11
    "He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone.


    1 Peter 2:6-7
    For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"


    Matthew 21:44
    "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."


    Luke 20:18
    "Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."


    Romans 9:32-33
    Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."


    1 Peter 2:4-8
    And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    1 John 5

    5Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.





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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    We need to clear up a misunderstanding. There are three Divine Persons within the Godhead -- God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Three Persons yet one God, and that is "the Mystery of God". So if you mean that the Father and Son are not the same person but distinct Divine Persons, then that is fine. But that does not mean that Jesus is NOT God. It simply means that He is the God the Son (also called the Son of God) or simply "God".

    Please note that God the Father addresses the Son Jesus as God in both Testaments (Hebrews 1:8,9): But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
    .
    The Godhead is more than 3. we are in it, and Jesus is the head. Colossians 2:9- For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    10- And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
    Just as it says in Ephesians 5:23 that Christ is the head of the church.

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    As a matter of fact no one can be saved unless they believe that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.
    where does Jesus teach this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird88 View Post
    where does Jesus teach this?
    Yes where does Jesus teach this..if no one can be saved but by belief in Jesus (In the flesh) Expect unbelieving children to go to hell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by savedtoast View Post
    Yes where does Jesus teach this..if no one can be saved but by belief in Jesus (In the flesh) Expect unbelieving children to go to hell.
    i think many confuse the teachings of Jesus with the teachings of man. the pharisees had the same confusion, how many times did Jesus have to set those guys straight.

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird88 View Post
    where does Jesus teach this?
    "No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also."
    1J 2:23
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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    "No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also."
    1J 2:23
    that scripture says not to deny the Son. i was asking for a scripture where Jesus teaches that one must believe the Son is the Most High or they are not saved and go straight to the hot place. where is that teaching?

    does denying the Son mean one is saying the Son is not the Most High? that same passage says denying the Son is denying He is the Christ.
    1 John 2 22
    Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.

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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkHasFaith View Post
    .
    The Godhead is more than 3. we are in it, and Jesus is the head. Colossians 2:9- For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    10- And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
    Just as it says in Ephesians 5:23 that Christ is the head of the church.
    Your interpretation of these texts is wrong.

    As human beings and believers in Christ we are NOT part of the Godhead.
    We may be part of the Kingdom of God of which Jesus Christ is the head but that does NOT make us divine!

    The Trinity is a doctrine about the nature of the divinity of God.
    Human beings are never a part of that.

    The fact that you do believe that humans are part of the Godhead unmasks a severe problem with your theology...
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    Default Re: The Trinity Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
    Scripture PLAINLY, EXPLICITLY, and IRREVOCABLY states that Jesus is God.

    Read John Chapter one. Here are a couple of the very relevant parts:

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    We probably most of us know that by heart. How can it be overlooked? Then verse 14,

    The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

    1:1-18 - John’s Introduction
    John begins by identifying his claims regarding who Jesus is. The introduction of John’s gospel immediately introduces the major themes that John intends to discuss. Then he spends the rest of the book proving and demonstrating these themes from the life and teaching of Jesus.

    Major doctrines or truths regarding Jesus stated in John 1:1-18:1.
    Jesus is eternal and uncreated, existing before the world began (1:1-3).2. Jesus possesses Deity (absolute authority and rulership over created things – 1:1).3. Jesus is a separate Being from the Father (1:1,2,18).

    4. Jesus is the Creator – the active force through Whom all things were made (1:3,10).

    5. Jesus is the source of truth and understanding of God’s will (1:4,5,14,17,18).

    6. Jesus is the source of life by which men have a relationship with God and hope of eternal life (1:4).

    7. Jesus became incarnate in the flesh as a man (1:14,9,10)

    8. Jesus was rejected by men (1:10,11).

    9. Jesus is the One who can give people power to become children of God (1:12).

    Study Notes on John1:1,2 – The Word was in the beginning with God and was God. The “Word” refers to Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God, as shown by verses 14,17. “In the beginning” must refer to the beginning of creation, as in Genesis 1:1. That this is the meaning is confirmed in v3 showing that Jesus is the Creator. So Jesus existed from eternity with the Father. Note that the use of “was” shows that Jesus already was in existence when the Creation occurred. This simultaneously proves both that Jesus possesses Deity and He is a separate and distinct living Being from the Father.

    The Word was “with God” in that Jesus was present in the beginning with the Father (see v3; Compare 1 John 1:2) – so, He is a separate individual living Being from the Father. But He also “was God” in that He Himself possessed Deity. To say there is one God is not necessarily to say there is only one individual Being that possesses Deity. Jesus affirmed that He and His Father are “one” as all believers are to be one (John 17:20,21) – not one individual, but one in purpose, goal, doctrine, etc.

    The term “god” refers to that which possesses all the characteristics of Deity and therefore deserves to be worshiped and honored as God. The true God of the Bible is one God, but consists of three separate and distinct individual Beings, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They all possess unlimited power over the created things, all are eternal and unlimited in wisdom, goodness, love, etc.

    There may be some differences among them regarding their relationship to one another, but regarding their relationship to created beings, they are all the same. There is no difference to us whether it is the Father who tells us a matter, or the Son, or the Spirit. These three are “one” in contrast to the heathen deities that possessed different characteristics, different wills, different degrees and areas of power, and often even warred and contradicted one another.

    Some claim Jesus is “a god,” but not God like the Father is God. Some, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses, argue that the Greek “was God” has no definite article before “God,” whereas there is a definite article in “with God.” So, it is claimed that Jesus is god in a lesser sense, different from the Father. So, the “New World Translation” says, “the word was a god.” However,(1) All major standard translations say, “the Word was God.” None say “a god.” So, they contradict the NWT. (See NKJV, KJV, ASV,NASB, RSV, NIV, etc.)

    (2) If Jesus is “god” in a lesser sense than the Father, then we would have two different true gods! Clearly, Jesus is not a false god; so, He must possess true Deity. But if He is “god” in a different sense from the Father, that would violate the passages saying there is one true God! Study Notes on John Page #14

    (3) Many Scriptures use “God” without an article to refer to the true God. See Matthew 5:9; 6:24; Luke 1:35,78; John1:6,12,13,18; Romans 1:7,17; and many others.

    (4) Many Scriptures use “God” both with and without an article in the same context, yet both uses clearly refer to the true God. See Matthew 4:3,4; 12:28; Luke 20:37,38; John 3:2; 13:3; Acts5:29,30; Romans 1:7,8,17-19; 2:16,17; 3:5,22,23; 4:2,3; etc.

    (5) The context of John 1:1-3 shows that Jesus is eternal and created all things. (See our later discussion on the character and works of Jesus). To call Him “God” in such a context must surely mean He is God in the same exalted sense as the Father.

    (6) We will soon see other passages referring to Jesus as “God” using the definite article. If the NWT distinction is valid, then these passages must prove conclusively that Jesus is God in the same sense as the Father.So, John 1:1 refers to both Jesus and the Father as “God” in a context that affirms the eternal existence of Jesus and that He is the Creator of all(v1-3). This would be blasphemy if He does not possess Deity as the Father does. [Marshall, Vine, Vincent, Lenski, Robertson, and other Greek scholars contend that the article is absent from “was God” in John 1:1, not to imply that Jesus was a “lesser god,” but simply to identify “God” as the predicate nominative despite the fact it precedes the verb for emphasis (Colwell’s Rule). If it had the definite article, that would imply that “the Word” and the Father are the same person. In any case, the Scriptures listed above clearly show that the lack of the article does not prove Jesus is God in a lesser sense than the Father.]

    Other passages affirming Jesus’ Deity
    Colossians 2:9 “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (NKJV, KJV,ASV). Or: “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form” (NASB, RSV, NIV is similar). Hebrews 1:3 Jesus was “the express image of His [the Father’s] person” (NKJV,KJV) or “the very image of his substance” (ASV), “the exact representation of His nature” (NASB), “the exact representation of his being” (NIV). The context describes Jesus as the Creator, far above the angels so that He deserves to be worshipped. But only God is properly worshiped, so Jesus is God in the fullest sense of the word.

    God possesses certain characteristics that are so unique that no one but God can possess them (eternal, all-powerful, etc.). If no one but God possesses these, yet Jesus is the exact reproduction of the essence of God’s nature, then He must possess these qualities. But if Jesus possesses all qualities that are unique to God, He must be God: He must possess Deity.
    http://www.religionofjesuschrist.com...ospel/john.pdf
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