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Thread: I forgot to be baptized

  1. #161
    Senior Member mailmandan's Avatar
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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    Your question:

    "Yet who will be condemned?"

    Answer: All of us, regardless of baptism.
    Answer: Those who "do not believe" will be condemned.(Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18). Elsewhere, we read in 2 Corinthians 4:3 - But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    The real question: who will be saved?

    "Those who believe and are baptized"
    If those who believe will be saved (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) then those who believe and are baptized will be saved as well.

    If belief is the only thing needed to be saved, this is the perfect time for Jesus to utter that message. But how does He answer it? "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved"
    Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned"-- (Mark 16:16(b). If baptism is needed to be saved, this is the perfect time for Jesus to utter that message in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26. But what did Jesus say? He who believes in Him shall not perish/is not condemned/shall have eternal life.

    Regardless of why we are condemned, it is belief and baptism that takes away that condemnation.
    False. It is belief that takes away that condemnation (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18).

    How can you read these simple 18 words and not understand this?
    How can you read Mark 16:16(b); John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 and not understand that condemnation rests on a lack of belief and not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief.

    You are fighting against the very words of Jesus.
    That statement is the epitome of irony.
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    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    The "rest of the sentence" is about condemnation and does not negate the earlier eight words.

    "Not to mention the rest of the New Testament"? Is not the rest of the New Testament full of belief and baptism as needed for salvation?
    The sentence is coherent - it is about faith and belief - not baptism!
    Faith and belief (in Jesus Christ) saves; lack of belief results in condemnation...
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  3. #163


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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Quote Originally Posted by graceNpeace View Post
    The sentence is coherent - it is about faith and belief - not baptism!
    Faith and belief (in Jesus Christ) saves; lack of belief results in condemnation...
    The sentence states belief and baptism saves not belief and faith saves. Read it again, its only 18 words long.

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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    The sentence states belief and baptism saves not belief and faith saves. Read it again, its only 18 words long.
    So, you are going to insist on trying to build a false doctrine on part of a single sentence...
    Wow!
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  5. #165


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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    You keep missing my point. It's the medication that heals, not the water. Period. Faith is only as good as the OBJECT that we place it in. Unfortunately, there are many sincere (but sincerely wrong) people who have received water baptism, but have not placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ alone for salvation. Such people may believe "mental assent" that Jesus is the Son of God and that His death, burial and resurrection "happened" yet fall short of saving faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ alone for salvation and instead their trust and reliance is in "water and works" for salvation.
    You keep missing my point. It's not the medication that heals but the action of taking the correct medication that heals. Period. Faith is only as good as the obedience of the faithful. Unfortunately, there are many sincere (but sincerely wrong) people who have faith but have not obeyed to the point of the pledge of a good conscience (1st Peter 3:21) missing out of the power of Jesus's death, burial and resurrection. Such people may believe but because of those in the "believe only" sects stand at the door of Jesus and wait, fearful that knocking will label them as a "belief plus works" salvationist.

    This is what I find detestable. Doctrine that puts a stumbling block before those believers wanting to obey the simply commands of God. Telling them to ignore what is clearly commanded for salvation and labeling anyone who disagrees a "works based Judaizer". To the point of even calling acts of confessing, repentance and baptism as "works".

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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    You keep missing my point. It's not the medication that heals but the action of taking the correct medication that heals. Period. Faith is only as good as the obedience of the faithful. Unfortunately, there are many sincere (but sincerely wrong) people who have faith but have not obeyed to the point of the pledge of a good conscience (1st Peter 3:21) missing out of the power of Jesus's death, burial and resurrection. Such people may believe but because of those in the "believe only" sects stand at the door of Jesus and wait, fearful that knocking will label them as a "belief plus works" salvationist.

    This is what I find detestable. Doctrine that puts a stumbling block before those believers wanting to obey the simply commands of God. Telling them to ignore what is clearly commanded for salvation and labeling anyone who disagrees a "works based Judaizer". To the point of even calling acts of confessing, repentance and baptism as "works".
    All this would be fine...if, in fact, water baptism actually gave one salvation, but it does not!
    Simple as that!
    Getting wet in the name of Jesus Christ has never saved a single soul...

    Water baptism has an important role in the Christian life but the gate-keeper of salvation it most emphatically is not!
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  7. #167


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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Quote Originally Posted by graceNpeace View Post
    So, you are going to insist on trying to build a false doctrine on part of a single sentence...
    Wow!
    By no means. This was the sentence at hand, you were simply missing its message.

    Reread your post #162. You state the sentence means "faith and belief (in Jesus Christ) saves", it does not.

    It simply reads "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved". You either misread it or ignored the baptism part.

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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    By no means. This was the sentence at hand, you were simply missing its message.

    Reread your post #162. You state the sentence means "faith and belief (in Jesus Christ) saves", it does not.

    It simply reads "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved". You either misread it or ignored the baptism part.
    No, I ignored nothing.
    What I did do was read the WHOLE sentence, AND, the whole chapter, AND the whole book, AND the rest of the Bible.

    Ignoring context allows you to ignore the thrust of the communication, not me...

  9. #169


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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Quote Originally Posted by graceNpeace View Post
    All this would be fine...if, in fact, water baptism actually gave one salvation, but it does not!
    Simple as that!
    Getting wet in the name of Jesus Christ has never saved a single soul...

    Water baptism has an important role in the Christian life but the gate-keeper of salvation it most emphatically is not!
    Faith
    Baptism
    Repentance
    confession
    etc.

    None of these things "gives" us salvation. God is not forced to forgive anyone no matter what they do or believe.

    God forgives because of the loving grace that He offers mankind and nothing more!

    This grace is not bestowed upon "any and all" but to those who obey His will. We may differ on what is needed to obey but not the need to obey. You may say it is to accept your understanding of faith, others may differ but in the end there is a point that we come in contact with that grace. Your view that baptism is not that point is fine but there are many verses that suggest otherwise. Certainly belief is the foundation of Christian salvation but since there are no verses that proclaim that it is this "faith alone" that saves, it is unwise to label acts of obedience as unnecessary for salvation.
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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    Faith
    Baptism
    Repentance
    confession
    etc.

    None of these things "gives" us salvation. God is not forced to forgive anyone no matter what they do or believe.

    God forgives because of the loving grace that He offers mankind and nothing more!

    This grace is not bestowed upon "any and all" but to those who obey His will. We may differ on what is needed to obey but not the need to obey. You may say it is to accept your understanding of faith, others may differ but in the end there is a point that we come in contact with that grace. Your view that baptism is not that point is fine but there are many verses that suggest otherwise. Certainly belief is the foundation of Christian salvation but since there are no verses that proclaim that it is this "faith alone" that saves, it is unwise to label acts of obedience as unnecessary for salvation.
    Wow, you are struggling!
    The word of God tells us in plenty places that we can be confident of our salvation - that God will be faithful to His promises.

    But in this post you clearly show the key marks of the 'works salvationist' by admitting that in your world one cannot rely on God to save, and therefore striving and 'obedience' become necessary to somehow confirm salvation.
    The big issue with you is water baptism. but in fact almost anything could be substituted - for many on this site currently Sabbath observance is the issue....

    You have lost your way...If God cannot save us through the shed blood of Jesus Christ then water baptism, or anything else for that matter, will make no difference either!

    My suggestion is to read the the Epistle to the Romans from start to finish to regain a bit of perspective.
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  11. #171


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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Quote Originally Posted by graceNpeace View Post
    Wow, you are struggling!
    The word of God tells us in plenty places that we can be confident of our salvation - that God will be faithful to His promises.

    But in this post you clearly show the key marks of the 'works salvationist' by admitting that in your world one cannot rely on God to save, and therefore striving and 'obedience' become necessary to somehow confirm salvation.
    The big issue with you is water baptism. but in fact almost anything could be substituted - for many on this site currently Sabbath observance is the issue....

    You have lost your way...If God cannot save us through the shed blood of Jesus Christ then water baptism, or anything else for that matter, will make no difference either!

    My suggestion is to read the the Epistle to the Romans from start to finish to regain a bit of perspective.
    It is you who is struggling.

    I made no mention of our confidence in salvation, you pulled that notion out of thin air.

    I made no mention of not relying on God to save, I stated the opposite: "God forgives because of His loving grace".
    How could you miss that?

    The big issue with you is either:

    1. A over eagerness to respond without clearly understanding the post.
    2. A lack of reasoning ability.
    3. The inability to see both sides of an issue.
    4. Simple pride, believe in my understanding of the gospel or you are a "works salvationist".

    I suspect its a little of all.

    It is you who has lost his way. I never said "God cannot save us through the shed blood of Jesus Christ". On the contrary, He is omnipotent, God can save us anyway He wishes. It is you who is forcing your view on how God saves, you maybe right but there are many verses that suggest obedience is part of that plan.

    My suggestion to you is to slow down and read the Bible without your "belief only" glasses. The "flow and form" of the scriptures has always been God rewarding man upon his obedience.
    Last edited by DJ2; 6 Days Ago at 10:01 PM.

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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Quote Originally Posted by graceNpeace View Post
    Wow, you are struggling!
    The word of God tells us in plenty places that we can be confident of our salvation - that God will be faithful to His promises.

    But in this post you clearly show the key marks of the 'works salvationist' by admitting that in your world one cannot rely on God to save, and therefore striving and 'obedience' become necessary to somehow confirm salvation.
    The big issue with you is water baptism. but in fact almost anything could be substituted - for many on this site currently Sabbath observance is the issue....

    You have lost your way...If God cannot save us through the shed blood of Jesus Christ then water baptism, or anything else for that matter, will make no difference either!

    My suggestion is to read the the Epistle to the Romans from start to finish to regain a bit of perspective.
    And you still have conveniently overlooked, or failed to explain all of the teachings (commands) and examples given to us in scripture that say that baptism is an essential part of our salvation.

    If it wasn't essential, why did Jesus say to do it? Why did all the apostles teach it? Why did ALL Christians believe it was necessary, up until some "reformer" decided HE didn't think it was necessary?

    It's not simply some feel-good "show" for everyone else to see. If it was not essential, why was it ever mentioned in the first place?

    All your scripture twisting and parsing cannot explain that. I would rather do my best to obey what Jesus taught us, unquestioning.
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    No man is really saved unless he is in his heart obedient to Christ. C.H. Spurgeon

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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    It is you who is struggling.

    I made no mention of our confidence in salvation, you pulled that notion out of thin air.

    I made no mention of not relying on God to save, I stated the opposite: "God forgives because of His loving grace".
    How could you miss that?

    The big issue with you is either:

    1. A over eagerness to respond without clearly understanding the post.
    2. A lack of reasoning ability.
    3. The inability to see both sides of an issue.
    4. Simple pride, believe in my understanding of the gospel or you are a "works salvationist".

    I suspect its a little of all.

    It is you who has lost his way. I never said "God cannot save us through the shed blood of Jesus Christ". On the contrary, He is omnipotent, God can save us anyway He wishes. It is you who is forcing your view on how God saves, you maybe right but there are many verses that suggest obedience is part of that plan.

    My suggestion to you is to slow down and read the Bible without your "belief only" glasses. The "flow and form" of the scriptures has always been God rewarding man upon his obedience.
    Frankly your post was full of mixed messages:

    You state that 'faith' amongst other things does not save and then go on to say that God forgives because of His loving grace!
    Scripture on the other hand states very clearly that faith (in the right things of course) is absolutely central to salvation.
    I have no problem with the fact that even that faith is a gift of grace from God, but nonetheless it is faith in Jesus Christ that saves us.

    BTW if anyone is reading the Bible with tinted glasses it is you, because of your need to 'prove' baptismal regeneration.
    I have frequently made reference to broadening one's reading in order to a full view of Scripture, and I will do so again.
    Baptismal regeneration flatly contradicts whole books of the New Testament.

    In addition, any 'rewards' for obedience are consequent of salvation - not the means of salvation...

    Stop trying to build an incorrect doctrine on a single incomplete sentence!
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  14. #174


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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Quote Originally Posted by graceNpeace View Post
    No, I ignored nothing.
    What I did do was read the WHOLE sentence, AND, the whole chapter, AND the whole book, AND the rest of the Bible.

    Ignoring context allows you to ignore the thrust of the communication, not me...
    You are taking the idea of context out of "context", pun intended.

    No matter what you think the context may be it does not give you the right to change what is stated.

    The sentence reads; "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved but whoever does not believe will be condemned".

    There is nothing in context that will alter this simple message. Your theology that salvation is by faith alone is not "context" that the verse should not be taken at face value.
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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Quote Originally Posted by graceNpeace View Post
    Frankly your post was full of mixed messages:

    You state that 'faith' amongst other things does not save and then go on to say that God forgives because of His loving grace!
    Scripture on the other hand states very clearly that faith (in the right things of course) is absolutely central to salvation.
    I have no problem with the fact that even that faith is a gift of grace from God, but nonetheless it is faith in Jesus Christ that saves us.

    BTW if anyone is reading the Bible with tinted glasses it is you, because of your need to 'prove' baptismal regeneration.
    I have frequently made reference to broadening one's reading in order to a full view of Scripture, and I will do so again.
    Baptismal regeneration flatly contradicts whole books of the New Testament.

    In addition, any 'rewards' for obedience are consequent of salvation - not the means of salvation...

    Stop trying to build an incorrect doctrine on a single incomplete sentence!
    Who mentioned anything about "baptismal regeneration"? This is another thing you pulled out of thin air.

    Please try to stick with the post or are you simply stumped?

    Obedience is the means to salvation not the result of salvation.

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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    Who mentioned anything about "baptismal regeneration"? This is another thing you pulled out of thin air.

    Please try to stick with the post or are you simply stumped?

    Obedience is the means to salvation not the result of salvation.
    Nobody is saved by obedience - ask the Israelites under the Mosaic Covenant!
    That Covenant was all about obedience - nothing more and nothing less.
    Guess what - they failed abysmally...

    As for the topic under discussion it was about the significance of water baptism and you were the one who was insisting that water baptism was an essential part of salvation - were you not!
    If one needs to be water baptised to be saved then that it was that means - baptismal regeneration...
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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Quote Originally Posted by hornetguy View Post
    And you still have conveniently overlooked, or failed to explain all of the teachings (commands) and examples given to us in scripture that say that baptism is an essential part of our salvation.

    If it wasn't essential, why did Jesus say to do it? Why did all the apostles teach it? Why did ALL Christians believe it was necessary, up until some "reformer" decided HE didn't think it was necessary?

    It's not simply some feel-good "show" for everyone else to see. If it was not essential, why was it ever mentioned in the first place?

    All your scripture twisting and parsing cannot explain that. I would rather do my best to obey what Jesus taught us, unquestioning.
    Nobody said that water baptism was not important or not commanded.
    The issue at hand is what is its role or place in Christianity.

    Mark 16:16 does not teach that water baptism is essential for salvation. It teaches that the discriminator between saved and not saved is belief or faith.

    Furthermore, there is NO place in Scripture that even tangentially warns those who are not baptized that they are not saved never mind a blunt statement to this effect.
    There are plenty of Scriptures dealing with faith and belief or lack of faith and belief with respect to salvation.
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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Something to think about Mark 16:15-16

    So we got background summarized by our Lord Jesus Christ in Mark 16:15. What is it? Jesus simply commanded His disciples to “Go” and “Preach the gospel”.

    Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
    Question is what happens when one believed the preaching of the gospel? The Bible is plain on the subject whom according to Paul, this is the power of God unto “salvation to every one that believeth”

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    So, once you believed you will be saved according to the scriptures. This is attested by many scriptural proofs (John 3:16; 3:18: 3:36; 5:24 etc.) But what about those who believed and is baptized? Is he saved? As we come to the next verse Jesus said:

    Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    We have to note that those who already believed were already saved and by obedience were immediately baptized. Jesus said “Believeth and is baptized”. Praise God because Jesus did not said we are to “Believe and baptized” and be saved. The inclusion of “is baptized” indicates a result of one’s belief in the gospel. We have to remember that the command is to “Go” and “preach the gospel” So, I am going to be baptized because I got saved since I believed the gospel. Naturally I am not condemned if I believed and have been baptized.

    The omission of baptism in the second clause proves the unnecessary in gaining one’s salvation. The other clause whether you like it or not, says that no one is damned to those who believed. But what about those who will not believe? Well, the Bible says he is already been condemned. What about those who were “baptized only”? Jesus said they are they who really don’t believe therefore “baptism” cannot be a part of the gospel and hence he will be also be damned to eternity in hell.

    John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    God bless
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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    It is you who is struggling.

    I made no mention of our confidence in salvation, you pulled that notion out of thin air.

    I made no mention of not relying on God to save, I stated the opposite: "God forgives because of His loving grace".
    How could you miss that?

    The big issue with you is either:

    1. A over eagerness to respond without clearly understanding the post.
    2. A lack of reasoning ability.
    3. The inability to see both sides of an issue.
    4. Simple pride, believe in my understanding of the gospel or you are a "works salvationist".

    I suspect its a little of all.

    It is you who has lost his way. I never said "God cannot save us through the shed blood of Jesus Christ". On the contrary, He is omnipotent, God can save us anyway He wishes. It is you who is forcing your view on how God saves, you maybe right but there are many verses that suggest obedience is part of that plan.

    My suggestion to you is to slow down and read the Bible without your "belief only" glasses. The "flow and form" of the scriptures has always been God rewarding man upon his obedience.
    God has a plan for us and His plan is perfect. Salvation is not merely that God saves as He wishes. If that's the case, then He don't need to send His only begotten Son to die on Calvary's tree and to shed His blood. This will result to anything goes under the sun yet God provided a better way. That's Christ!

    Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

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    Default Re: I forgot to be baptized

    Quote Originally Posted by fredoheaven View Post
    Something to think about Mark 16:15-16

    So we got background summarized by our Lord Jesus Christ in Mark 16:15. What is it? Jesus simply commanded His disciples to “Go” and “Preach the gospel”.

    Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
    Question is what happens when one believed the preaching of the gospel? The Bible is plain on the subject whom according to Paul, this is the power of God unto “salvation to every one that believeth”

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    So, once you believed you will be saved according to the scriptures. This is attested by many scriptural proofs (John 3:16; 3:18: 3:36; 5:24 etc.) But what about those who believed and is baptized? Is he saved? As we come to the next verse Jesus said:

    Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    We have to note that those who already believed were already saved and by obedience were immediately baptized. Jesus said “Believeth and is baptized”. Praise God because Jesus did not said we are to “Believe and baptized” and be saved. The inclusion of “is baptized” indicates a result of one’s belief in the gospel. We have to remember that the command is to “Go” and “preach the gospel” So, I am going to be baptized because I got saved since I believed the gospel. Naturally I am not condemned if I believed and have been baptized.

    The omission of baptism in the second clause proves the unnecessary in gaining one’s salvation. The other clause whether you like it or not, says that no one is damned to those who believed. But what about those who will not believe? Well, the Bible says he is already been condemned. What about those who were “baptized only”? Jesus said they are they who really don’t believe therefore “baptism” cannot be a part of the gospel and hence he will be also be damned to eternity in hell.

    John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    God bless
    Please note your sentence below:

    "We have to note that those who already believed were already saved and by obedience were immediately baptized."

    If Jesus knew that those who "already believed were already saved", why would He add the "and baptized will be saved" to Mark 16:16?

    This simple question is being ignored.

    The omission of a phrase, term or word does not equal a statement of mission. What you are attempting to do is invalidate what Jesus did say by noting by what He did not say. This is flawed reasoning. No one is required to present the negative to every positive they say or write.

    When Jesus said "but whoever does not believe will be condemned.", He is not negating His earlier 8 words.
    Last edited by DJ2; 6 Days Ago at 07:02 AM.
    hornetguy likes this.

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