Phony Bibles

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John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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Your reference for this?



Can we have an adequate translation? Yes, of course; there are several. Can we have an exact translation? That's theoretically possible, but your point does nothing to support your belief. Given that English does not have the same structure as either Hebrew or Greek, and that English has a large number of full- and near-synonyms, the best we can have is several good translations, with access to the manuscripts and tools to help us. For most people, that is a perfectly-valid way for God to "preserve His word".

Furthermore, some things simply don't translate well. Idiomatic phrases can have a particular meaning which is not necessarily related to the meanings of the individual words. It is valid to translate the idiom in either way. It simply can't be said that either is the only "accurate" translation, because both are. They're just translated according to different models.
My God can and has given us His word in English. My God is not bound by the English language. If God would have given His word using the English language, the words He would have used are found in the KJV.

The reference to your concern is the one I gave, 2 Timothy 3:15: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Do you believe that Timothy had the originals to study from or a copy of a copy of a copy, etc...?
 

John146

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And I have actually no problem with calling a translation "Scriptures", because it is a translation of Scriptures.
Scripture, as per the Bible, is given by inspiration of God. Are you saying that the Bible you read and study has been given by inspiration of God? That would mean that every word is pure and holy, without mixture.
 

John146

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How about verbal aspect? We simply do not have anything like it in English. The Aorist tense, for example, is normally translated as past tense in English, and 85% of the time, it is! But the other 15% of the time it is present or future. This is because Aorist is about the whole picture, as seen from outside, rather than tense being the most important thing.

In Greek, verbal aspect is more important than tense. How the writer views things, from the outside, requiring a perfective aspect like the Aorist, or an imperfective aspect, like the present, which recalls events from the inside. Time takes a back seat to aspect, resulting in English not capturing the nuances of this important fact.

It's also the reason a verb can be in the present tense, but translated into past tense in English. The historical present is used with verbs of saying and motion, and English can never capture thus imperfective aspect of the historical present.

As for Hebrew, the entire verbal system, which is the most important part of the language is different than English. We don't have Qal, Nifal, or Hithpael. I won't even get into it, here! Hebrew is also a very black and white language, and it is hard to carry that into English.

There are just so many wrong things on this thread, especially by the OP. For instance, doeps Pete know that the science of lower text criticism is very advanced. Every manuscript from the Rylands papyrus of John, dating to the 2nd century to the much later Byzantine texts, have beeen scrutinized, mapped charted and cross referenced.

The result is that it is easy to trace manuscripts and their mistakes. So a copyist error in the 5th century might be carried down through the centuries in the copies of the copies of the copies. Byzantine manuscripts from which the KJV was translated, are actually the majority texts, and of the poorest quality. Because Greece and Constantinople kept its Greek, scribes continued to make copies. Sometimes scribes would add a notation in the margin. Often, these notations can be found on the first copy where this was added. Then the next generation of manuscripts, that margin notation would be added into the text, then repeatedly copied. This is a big issue with making simple statements about Jesus, into high Christiology. So for example, the earlier documents might say "Jesus" in a verse. In the 8th century, a scribe would add, "the Lord Jesus." In the 11th century a further scribe might add, "the Lord Jesus Christ." That is high Christology! And it is added. Of course, it is a true statement, but it is often not their in the earliest manuscripts, because it was added by copyists.

Finally, the KJV was translated using 7 very late, corrupted manuscripts, which is why there are so many added verses. Erasmus, a Catholic priest translated them and the Catholic Church made him keep spurious verses to support RCC doctrine, even though the verses were obviously added. Older manuscripts are always better, because they have not welcome corrupted, like a game of telephone! But, they all need to be compared and translated with wisdom.

I hope one day we discover some of the original autographs. There are libraries in Greece and Istanbul, which have millennia of Greek manuscripts. Daniel Wallace is photographing all of them and cataloging them. Who knows what he will find?
Angela, I'd love for you to post your thoughts on post #39. Thanks.
 

John146

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You can have a translation of Greek and Hebrew and this can give you the message and all main doctrines, everything you need for a good and Christian life.

It will not give you all nuances, all words and all meanings.

It is in no way better then the Scriptures in the original language. You are quite a lazy man, instead of discussing the KJV again and again, if you would give the same amount of time to learn Greeek, you would be able to read 5 or 6 books of the NT in Greek already.
What about the "main" doctrine that Scripture is holy and pure, without mixture? What about the trustworthiness of God's word? If I can't trust the book, can I trust the Saviour of the book?

If I learn Greek inside and out, it will make me the final authority on Scripture, since it will be up to me to determine which English words to use. No thank you. I let Scripture correct me. I don't want to correct Scripture.
 

trofimus

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Aug 17, 2015
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Scripture, as per the Bible, is given by inspiration of God. Are you saying that the Bible you read and study has been given by inspiration of God? That would mean that every word is pure and holy, without mixture.
By inspiration I mean its author is God who used people to write as He wished.

It does not mean that every copy and every translation of it is inspired.

If you translate Goethe or Schiller, it is still Goethe or Schiller, but some nuances can be missing when compared to original and something from you can be added by your translation.
 

trofimus

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What about the "main" doctrine that Scripture is holy and pure, without mixture? What about the trustworthiness of God's word? If I can't trust the book, can I trust the Saviour of the book?

If I learn Greek inside and out, it will make me the final authority on Scripture, since it will be up to me to determine which English words to use. No thank you. I let Scripture correct me. I don't want to correct Scripture.
What main doctrine are you referring to?

You are the final authority on Scripture, actually, because you are the one reading it and understanding it somehow. It does not matter if you read in English, French, German, Czech or Greek.

But Greek will give you the most, because its the original language. All others are just translations by people who read the Greek text (which is something you are afraid of) and then tried to make it the same in another language. So they became authority on the Greek text and then on the translation and then you, reading the translation, became the authority of understanding the translation. This chain is much longer than you reading the Greek text, I think.
 
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Dino246

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... a copy of a copy of a copy,
The reference to your concern is the one I gave, 2 Timothy 3:15: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. Do you believe that Timothy had the originals to study from or a copy of a copy of a copy, etc...?
Once again, what is your reference that what Timothy had in his hands was "a copy of a copy of a copy, etc."? I thought that bolding this part in my previous quotation would make it adequately clear to what I was referring.


... If God would have given His word using the English language, the words He would have used are found in the KJV.
That is your opinion, and cannot be supported factually; therefore, it has no validity. Further, it has been shown amply that the KJV is NOT an accurate translation of the manuscript text in many places. Not only is your assertion invalid, it's also incorrect. Please don't waste your time by asking for examples; they've been given at length.

That you continue to make assertions like this only demonstrates that you have a cultic attachment to the KJV, which has nothing to do with truth.
 

Dino246

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Scripture, as per the Bible, is given by inspiration of God. Are you saying that the Bible you read and study has been given by inspiration of God? That would mean that every word is pure and holy, without mixture.
You really need to read the Preface to the Reader from the original 1611 KJV. That should disabuse you of this misunderstanding.

Please don't respond to this until and unless you have read the Preface in its entirety.
 

John146

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Once again, what is your reference that what Timothy had in his hands was "a copy of a copy of a copy, etc."? I thought that bolding this part in my previous quotation would make it adequately clear to what I was referring.
Are you saying that Timothy had the original OT writings to study from? Really?
 

John146

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Not only is your assertion invalid, it's also incorrect. Please don't waste your time by asking for examples; they've been given at length.

That you continue to make assertions like this only demonstrates that you have a cultic attachment to the KJV, which has nothing to do with truth.
Answers have been given to all so called falsehoods of the KJV. Just because you do not agree with the answers do not make them false.

I have a love and attachment to the word of God. I'm a bible believer not a bible corrector.
 

John146

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You really need to read the Preface to the Reader from the original 1611 KJV. That should disabuse you of this misunderstanding.

Please don't respond to this until and unless you have read the Preface in its entirety.
I have many times. Those are man's thoughts. What's wrong with that? It's called humility.
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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Are you saying that Timothy had the original OT writings to study from? Really?
I'm saying exactly the same thing I've already said twice: What is your reference for your statement that what Timothy had in his hands was "a copy of a copy of a copy, etc."?

If you have no reference, and it is therefore simply your own opinion, then at least have the integrity to admit such.
 

Dino246

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I have many times. Those are man's thoughts. What's wrong with that? It's called humility.
You missed the point completely. You stated the following: "Scripture, as per the Bible, is given by inspiration of God. Are you saying that the Bible you read and study has been given by inspiration of God? That would mean that every word is pure and holy, without mixture."

The 1611 Preface uses the analogy of the King's speech being translated into another language, and being somewhat diminished in the process, without losing its identity as the King's speech. The analogy is applied directly to the word of God in reference to translation. In other words, the translation is not perfect, but it is still God's word. Your assertion that every word in English is "pure and holy, without mixture" doesn't stand up to the view the translators themselves took of their own work! You can quote it and believe it, but that doesn't make your application of it the truth.
 

fredoheaven

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Nov 17, 2015
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Finally, the KJV was translated using 7 very late, corrupted manuscripts, which is why there are so many added verses. Erasmus, a Catholic priest translated them and the Catholic Church made him keep spurious verses to support RCC doctrine, even though the verses were obviously added. Older manuscripts are always better, because they have not welcome corrupted, like a game of telephone! But, they all need to be compared and translated with wisdom.
There is much harping around here and must needs to be challenge. Can you mention those 7 corrupted manuscripts?

Is it true there are only 7 mss or are you spreading misinformation?

Please verify this claim...
 

fredoheaven

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Nov 17, 2015
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What main doctrine are you referring to?

You are the final authority on Scripture, actually, because you are the one reading it and understanding it somehow. It does not matter if you read in English, French, German, Czech or Greek.

But Greek will give you the most, because its the original language. All others are just translations by people who read the Greek text (which is something you are afraid of) and then tried to make it the same in another language. So they became authority on the Greek text and then on the translation and then you, reading the translation, became the authority of understanding the translation. This chain is much longer than you reading the Greek text, I think.
Umm. It's no longer God. You become one of the gods...

Human reasoning above the words of God.

Sorry man
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Umm. It's no longer God. You become one of the gods...

Human reasoning above the words of God.

Sorry man
You can be sorry for the reality, but if you read this post, it is you who decides what my words mean, not me, not anybody else.

If you think that your thinking makes you "one of the gods" (no idea what it means), I respond to that "its nonsense as other KJV only arguments".
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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Is it true there are only 7 mss or are you spreading misinformation?
There are seven papyrus fragments known to be the earliest manuscripts. However, there are four ancient uncial (capital letter) manuscripts which are known to be corrupt -- Aleph B C D -- of which the first two are the most corrupt, yet have been elevated to the rank of "oldest therefore best". Under normal circumstances it would be true that the oldest manuscripts are closest to the inspired originals. However, as paradoxical as it may sound these survived because they were corrupt and therefore rejected by early Christians.

Here is a quotation which combines the sober assessment of textual scholars Burgon and Scrivener regarding these manuscripts. For details study The Revision Revised by Dean John William Burgon.

“It is no less true to fact than paradoxical in sound,” writes the most learned of the Revisionist body, [Scrivener]“that the worst corruptions, to which the New Testament has ever been subjected, originated within a hundred years after it was composed: that Irenæus [a.d. 150] and the African Fathers, and the whole Western, with a portion of the Syrian Church, used far inferior manuscripts to those employed by Stunica, or Erasmus, or Stephens thirteen centuries later, when moulding the Textus Receptus.”
And what else are codices א b c d but specimensin vastly different degreesof the class thus characterized by Prebendary Scrivener? Nay, who will venture to deny that those codices are indebted for their preservation solely to the circumstance, that they were long since recognized as the depositories of Readings which rendered them utterly untrustworthy? (page 30).
 
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trofimus

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Aug 17, 2015
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Here is a quotation which combines the sober assessment of textual scholars Burgon and Scrivener regarding these manuscripts. For details study The Revision Revised by Dean John William Burgon.
The opinion of Burgon is not the word of God.