True Baptism

hornetguy · Sep 15, 2017

We're just gonna have to disagree on this point. I see no evidence at all that Peter was calling the men to be baptized "in Spirit".... to them, baptism was baptism... just like John's baptism was, in water. The difference was, that when you were baptized in Jesus' name, you were also being baptized in Spirit.... happens all at the same time...

"one Lord, one faith, one baptism"....

Spiritual baptism meant nothing to them... a totally new concept.

But, that's my take on it, you have yours... still brothers..

DJ2 · Sep 15, 2017

mailmandan said:

Absolutely. You still don't get it? Those who have truly repented believe the gospel and those who believe the gospel have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to believe the gospel. If you truly believed the gospel, then you would understand.

God has decided what should be assumed/implied with these scriptures. God has revealed this to me. Prior to my conversion, I was still mixed up about this, just like you still are. Repent and believe the gospel precede water baptism.

I already thoroughly explained this in post #182, but the truth just went right over your head. You just don't get it and there is a reason for that.

Why assume that it was? You can't truly repent and not believe the gospel and you can't truly believe the gospel without repenting, yet you can truly repent and believe the gospel but NOT YET BE WATER BAPTIZED. Believing the gospel is not baptism and believing the gospel precedes baptism and we are saved the moment that we believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) prior to receiving water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9). It's just that simple.

Why are you so obsessed with water baptism? Why wouldn't every conversion result in being water baptized afterwards? We see that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation. Unless you repent you will perish.. (Luke 13:3). *If we don't repent we will perish because if we don't repent then we won't believe the gospel. He who does not believe will be condemned.. (John 3:18). He who is not water baptized will be condemned? *No such verse.

Yet repent and believe the gospel are two sides to the same coin. Repent (change your mind) "new direction of this change of mind" -- believe the gospel. Where you have one you must have the other. "I truly repented but I don't believe the gospel" is an oxymoron; just as, "I believe the gospel but I never repented" is also an oxymoron. "I have truly repented and I believe the gospel" but I have not yet been water baptized is not an oxymoron. You don't baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers, but BECAUSE they are believers.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation.

Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." *If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). *What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

Just in case you are sarcastically thinking, "what happened to repentance?" It already took place in the process of changing our mind and choosing to BELIEVE (two sides to the same coin) so it's already implied or assumed and does not need to specifically be spelled out. There is a clear "distinction" between believes AND getting baptized AFTERWARDS, so baptism does need to be specifically mentioned in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 if baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *So we cannot say that whoever is not baptized will not be saved based on Mark 16:16. *Those that do so are basing their argument on faulty human logic.

Other translations simply say believed Him, yet regardless, there is a stage in the progress of believing in Jesus which "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." If you continue to read on in John 8:31-59, you will see that the Jews who were said to have "believed Him" turn out to be: slaves to sin (verse 34), indifferent to the words of Jesus (verses 33, 37), children of the devil (verse 44), liars (verse 55), and guilty of setting out to stone the one they have professed to believe in (verse 59).

*So we can see at best, these Jews believed on Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, but they did not truly "believe in His name/believe in Him" and become children of God/saved (John 1:12; 3:18).

In John chapter 6, we see that many of Jesus' so called disciples complained and were offended (verses 60-61) about what Jesus said in verses 51-59. These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (John 6:64). They also walked with Him no more. They did not continue.

*If we CONTINUE in His word, then we demonstrate that we are TRULY His disciples (John 8:31). Those who fail to continue in His word demonstrate that they are NOT TRULY His disciples. None of your assumptions can change all of this.

"God has decided what should be assumed/implied with these scriptures. God has revealed this to me."

This is the normal M.O. of the "faith only" groups. At some point in these debates, usually when one sees that he is backed into a logical corner they will throw out the direct revelation card, this is that moment.

If you had direct revelation on this subject why not state this in the beginning? Why toy with us simple Bereans and withhold this special revelation from us? Did this revelation occur before post#221 or after?

I have come across many people like you, once realizing that their theology is based on nothing but generalities and bromides, will use personal direct knowledge from God as to why what they believe is not biblical.

"You silly Campbellite. You don't understand because you just don't believe the gospel. If you did, God would reveal to you why the scriptures don't mean what they say. When the things I believe stop making sense God comes to me and reveals things that are not there. See how simple this is."

I grow wary of these discussions once someone starts the "I have the gift of understanding and you don't" spin.

There is truly no point in sharing biblical text when personal revelation is on the table. When direct revelation is accepted as equal to scripture chaos rules. No matter what verses are used, they are correct because God would not reveal something to them if it was not correct. Classic circular reasoning.

After reading this reply the other party will begin to back-pedal on their claims of revelation. Lets watch and see.

DJ2 · Sep 15, 2017

mailmandan said:

What I truly believe is that EVERYONE who receives water baptism believes something. It may be right, it may be wrong but they are not unbelievers. The baptism may be useless for its intended purpose but they were not unbelievers.

There is a huge difference between dunking a baby or atheist in water and a confused or mistaken "believer".

mailmandan · Sep 16, 2017

DJ2 said:

Did I say that God has revealed this to me through personal direct knowledge through an audible voice? No. God has revealed this to me in His Word. 1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It's obvious that you don't believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation because you "add supplements" (water baptism and other works) to the gospel. What did Paul say in 2 Corinthians 4:3,4 and in 1 Corinthians 2:11-14?

Again, see 2 Corinthians 4:3,4 and 1 Corinthians 2:11-14.

Straw man argument.

I did not claim to have a special revelation from God, like I'm some kind of modern day prophet. God has revealed the truth about the plan of salvation to me IN HIS WORD, just as He has to every genuine BELIEVER, but the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, is spiritually discerned and the end result is a perverted gospel.

I have presented solid Biblical evidence for what I believe in post #221 and instead of a rebuttal, you resort to personal attacks and straw man arguments. Typical.

When will you BELIEVE?

mailmandan · Sep 16, 2017

DJ2 said:

Sure they would have to at least believe "something" but simply believing "something" doesn't necessarily mean they believe the gospel.

Maybe not an unbeliever "in the sense" that they were atheists, but if what they believe falls short of trusting in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation, they are still unbelievers in the Biblical sense of the word, even though they believed "something." John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe (even though they believed something) is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Only genuine believers trust in Christ as the ALL-sufficient mean of their salvation. Just believing "something" that falls short of saving belief in Christ doesn't make you a genuine believer in Christ.

notuptome · Sep 16, 2017

hornetguy said:

Perhaps one day God will open your eyes to the truth about baptism. Not to be condescending but only to say each believer matures at their own pace and the Lord knows.

Consider that all of Christianity was a new concept. Those who had received Spirit baptism were able to see and understand this new concept.

One Lord eternal. One faith eternal. One baptism eternal. All of God eternal and none of man temporal.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

DJ2 · Sep 16, 2017

notuptome said:

Hornetguy, it seems you are not mature enough to understand the "trust alone" theology. Actually anyone who does not "experience" their holy spirit baptism is immature in the faith and rather ignorant.

Notuptome and mailmandan are typical of this theology. No one can truly understand the words of Christ without the esoteric knowledge that comes with their spiritual baptism. It is this rite of passage that separates the "true" believers from the simple Bereans. This thinking reeks of gnosticism.

So hornetguy unless you are "baptised" in their understanding you are spinning your wheels. You may ask, "how will I know when I have been baptized by "this" holy spirit. Simple, when you agree with the "faith only" theology you have been holy spirit baptized.

Much the same as predestination. How do you know you are chosen to be saved, when you believe in predestination. How do you know if you are chosen to be damned, when you don't believe in predestination. Circular reasoning in motion.

I completely believe that the Holy Spirit moves and guides Christians. It is the self-serving version offered by the "trust only" sects that I see through and reject.

DJ2 · Sep 16, 2017

mailmandan said:

It did not take long for you to back pedal.

You wrote exactly what you meant.

Your attempts at claiming spiritual superiority over me or anyone else who does not agree with your view of salvation are clearly evident. The use of 1st Corinthians 2:11-14 is common among those who claim their spiritual discernment overrules the objections of others. I have witnessed this many times, it usually happens when one person senses he is no longer able to cover the weakness of their position. They believe using the verse is a trump card but instead exposes them for what they really are, simply confused.

I do not believe you are purposely using this verse dishonestly, I am sure you really believe your spiritual discernment is better than the rest of us simple Bereans but we too have spiritual discernment. It's just we don't use it as evidence in support of our position.

mailmandan · Sep 17, 2017

DJ2 said:

Actually, I did not back pedal and my position is strong, not weak (and is scripturally based). It's you who remains confused and until you repent and believe the gospel, the blinders will remain. Paul gets to the very heart of the issue of why people don't accept the things of the Spirit of God and are spiritually discerned in 1 Corinthians 2:11-14 and also why people don't believe the gospel in 2 Corinthians 4:3,4.

1 Corinthians 2:14 - But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. (NIV)

Once again, instead of a rebuttal, you resort to personal attacks and straw man arguments. Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel.

TheGoldenScepter · Sep 17, 2017

Very much true.

hornetguy · Sep 17, 2017

DJ2 said:

I suppose you are correct. Having been saved/baptized just over 50 years ago makes me a relative "babe in Christ"...

Fortunately for me, others' opinion of what I need to do to be saved is not important at all. It's what God's word says.. that's all that means anything to me.

Anyone can read scripture, if they do it with an open mind and heart, and see what Jesus taught.

It's when eisigesis becomes more the norm than exigesis, that we get all the odd twisting of scripture.

notuptome · Sep 17, 2017

DJ2 said:

Hornetguy, it seems you are not mature enough to understand the "trust alone" theology. Actually anyone who does not "experience" their holy spirit baptism is immature in the faith and rather ignorant.

Notuptome and mailmandan are typical of this theology. No one can truly understand the words of Christ without the esoteric knowledge that comes with their spiritual baptism. It is this rite of passage that separates the "true" believers from the simple Bereans. This thinking reeks of gnosticism.

So hornetguy unless you are "baptised" in their understanding you are spinning your wheels. You may ask, "how will I know when I have been baptized by "this" holy spirit. Simple, when you agree with the "faith only" theology you have been holy spirit baptized.

Much the same as predestination. How do you know you are chosen to be saved, when you believe in predestination. How do you know if you are chosen to be damned, when you don't believe in predestination. Circular reasoning in motion.

I completely believe that the Holy Spirit moves and guides Christians. It is the self-serving version offered by the "trust only" sects that I see through and reject.

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Saved by grace without water baptism. Grace alone is the only theology taught in the bible. Saved by grace because of the blood of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome · Sep 17, 2017

hornetguy said:

Roman Catholics baptize infants so they are saved from birth.

It just might be possible your position is more religion based than bible based.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Muzungu256 · Sep 17, 2017

notuptome said:

so do many protestants u see.......... is there any examples of this in the bible???????? i think no.

hornetguy · Sep 17, 2017

Jesus told us to go and teach the gospel to all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Peter told the folks at Pentecost to repent, and be baptized.

Paul immediately went out and was baptized, after regaining his sight.

Cornelius' family were all baptized upon acceptance of Jesus.

Lydia and her household were baptized.

The eunuch was baptized.

The believers in Ephesus, who had only been baptized in John's name, were baptized again in Jesus' name.

Peter talked quite a bit about baptism, even showing the comparison to Noah being saved "through water".

If there had been only ONE mention of water baptism being a part of the salvation plan, that would be enough. It was not necessary for the writers of the NT to mention the whole, step by step process every time they talked about believers being saved. It was taken for granted that the readers knew the process, because it is what the apostles had taught and practiced since Jesus ascended.

To attempt to pass off all those scriptures as being about "spirit baptism" is just wrong. The people of those times had no concept of what a "spiritual baptism" was, and would not have understood what was being taught. The apostles would have known that, and would have clearly stated "the baptism I'm talking about here, is NOT the normal water baptism, but is a baptism in spirit only"

To pick a random scripture that mentions "those that believe will be saved", and try to make it binding as the only necessary requirement for salvation, is eisigesis at its worst. That practice is picking and choosing only the scriptures that fit an incorrect belief system.

I will not do that. I will read ALL the scriptures, and read them with understanding, and help from the Holy Spirit of God.

Scripture is pretty plain on this topic. Twisting scriptures around to fit your "faith only" belief system is wrong.

You will notice, however, that I have not, and will not, question your salvation, or your "understanding" ..... that sort of behavior is beneath me.... and you.

Muzungu256 · Sep 17, 2017

hornetguy said:

alot of em also spoke in tongues u see..... so do u believe in that too??? all who are baptized in Jesus' name and spoke in tongues????? what about that

DJ2 · Sep 17, 2017

Muzungu256 said:

A number of people spoke in other tongues in the New Testament. What is your point and how does it apply to the OP?

hornetguy · Sep 17, 2017

Muzungu256 said:

I think that the miraculous gift of speaking in another tongue was given to many people in order to "prove" or show the existence of the Holy Spirit. I don't think that everyone spoke in a tongue, but we cannot prove, or disprove that. Perhaps they did.

fredoheaven · Sep 18, 2017

DJ2 said:

I know that you do have the double meaning or interpretation and we have already unlocked one of the gross errors. Here is another one, you are trying to tweak but this does no good either.
The baptism of John is not “one of repentance” taking it as the same as “repentance” watering down the simple meaning of repentance as a “change of mind” or referring to a “part of repentance.” “Synecdoche” that is allowing part of something to represent the whole yet baptism must not be joined with for the remission of sins for the following reasons:
1. The evidence set forth in the context in the Book of Mark.
a. For Mark says John’s Baptism is of water but Jesus is of the Holy Ghost. V.8
b. The context of Mark also meant that those believing ones (converts), those who have repented (changed their mind) have “confess their sins” were baptized. V.6
2. The theological implication baptism “for the remission of sins” will conflict the whole counsel of God.
Teaching water does save is a heresy. No Jesus saves! Water cannot wash away sins. Yes it’s only the blood of Christ.
3. The confirmation of the Gospel writer Matthew shows the preaching message of John the Baptist is of repentance.
Matthew 1:2 “And saying, “Repent ye..”

and indeed this baptism of water is “unto repentance”.
Mathew 3:11 I indeed…unto repentance”

Yours is “one of repentance”
The Bible’s “unto repentance”

There’s a big difference, the "unto repentance" may have been brought because of the changed of mind/confession of sins.

mailmandan · Sep 18, 2017

hornetguy said:

This only proves that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

Yes, eight people in the ark were saved "through" water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

If water baptism is part of the plan of salvation, then why can't we find ONE verse that clearly states - "whoever is not water baptized will be condemned?" In Luke 13:3, Jesus said - "unless you repent you will all likewise perish." In John 3:18, Jesus said - "but he who does not believe is condemned already.." Yet NO mention of "water baptized or condemned." hmm...

Salvation through faith is not a step by step process that culminates in water baptism. The Roman Catholic church along with the Mormon church and other churches that teach salvation by works are also strong advocates of salvation by water baptism. That doesn't make you wonder why?

There are actually a multitude of verses that mention "those who believe (apart from additions or modifications) will be saved" and trying to "add" or "shoe horn" water baptism and other works into "believes" is eisigesis at it's worst.

We are saved through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE (Ephesians 2:8,9). *Not to be confused with what James refers to as "faith only" (James 2:24) which is an empty profession of faith (James 2:14) dead faith that remains "alone" (barren of works). Works salvationists often get this confused. Been there, done that.

True Baptism

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