True Baptism

[DJ2]

Well you will need to consider how long Adam may have lived before he sinned. In the garden before the fall there was no death. There was no sin so there was no death. Death passed upon all creation when sin entered through Adams transgression.

The only way Jesus could die was by the determinate will of God. Sin could have no effect upon Him because Jesus never sinned.

The spirit never dies even in sinful men. The spirit lives in eternal condemnation in the unregenerate man. The very nature of God is Eternal. Gods habitation is eternity, eternity past and eternity future.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Your assertion is esoteric and not scriptural.

Romans 10:9 states, "If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that He was raised from the dead, you will be saved."

What more has to be said. Jesus died on the cross, regardless of how, He died.

I only bring up esoteric knowledge because it is the overriding basis of your theology. You do not view the scriptures like the Bereans but through the lens of your "holy spirit baptism".

 

[hornetguy]

Well you will need to consider how long Adam may have lived before he sinned. In the garden before the fall there was no death. There was no sin so there was no death. Death passed upon all creation when sin entered through Adams transgression.

The only way Jesus could die was by the determinate will of God. Sin could have no effect upon Him because Jesus never sinned.

The spirit never dies even in sinful men. The spirit lives in eternal condemnation in the unregenerate man. The very nature of God is Eternal. Gods habitation is eternity, eternity past and eternity future.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yes... I understand what you are saying... I just disagree with your conclusions.

Like DJ2 said, if Jesus did not die on the cross, then he was never resurrected, and our faith is worthless..

 

[garee]

Jesus body was not born of man that virgin birth thing. So Jesus body was not subject to original sin through Adam so sin never had attached the curse of death. Only when Jesus took our sin upon Himself did He will His body to die.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The Son of man in regard to the corrupted flesh dies . The work the Spirit of Christ worked in Mary to both will and do His good pleasure that work gives us a miraculous Birth.

God is not a man as us never was never could be He has no beginning of days beginning of Spirit life .His words are spirit and are creators of spirit life .He alone is the father of spirits. In that way we are to call no man father on earth.. He as the Son of God who has no form put on temporally the flesh as a demonstration of the unseen work of pouring out his Spirit.

That which is born of the flesh as seen is flesh. That which is born of the unseen spirit is spirit.

Without a spirit the flesh dies (James 2:26) and returns to the lifeless ,spiritless dust it was formed of . The Son of man must appear in the likeness of sinful corrupted flesh.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


The promised demonstration of the work of pouring out his Spirit worked just as by faith he believed it world (A work of His faith or labor of his love).

Isaiah 53 the place of promise is helpful in trying to reconcile the faith to faith (not seen) issues by comparing the walking by sight as that seen and walking or understanding by faith as that not seen

Isa 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

We know God is not a man as us so the arm must mean the work of the Spirit of Christ, He reveals us His will strengthening our faith in him..as the kind of faith that comes from hearing Him as he gives us ears to hear what His Spirit is saying. Distinguishing His eternal Spirit from the temporal spirit of man.


Isa 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

The dry ground represent the hopeless of man that thirst for rain or in our case the gospel that falls from the sky like rain quenching our spirutl thirst. Having no form represents the faith law as that not seen ( the Son of God) .

And when the arm of God revels him as the Son of man there would be nothing about him that would cause us to desire him . the father draws by faith they will come not maybe. he who is of one mind always does what soever his soul pleases .it is God who does make our hearts soft enough to receive His seed the rains of the gospel, the a water of the word.

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. Isa 53:3

The father inflicted the Son of God in respect to the Spirit of Christ . The Son of man died to show spirit life not seen was given. The Spirit of God could never die. Eternal Spirit has no beginning of days or end of Spirit life.

To show that the Son of man (as that seen) was dead his blood was poured out into the ground returning to the dust just like the sacrifices that pointed to Christ suffering beforehand to show again spirit life was given in jeopardy of His own Spirit.

The one time promised demonstration of the lamb of God who was slain from the foundation of the world .The six days he did work is over. Christ replied .My flesh (as that seen) profits for nothing .

 

[notuptome]

Yes... I understand what you are saying... I just disagree with your conclusions.

Like DJ2 said, if Jesus did not die on the cross, then he was never resurrected, and our faith is worthless..

What was resurrected? It was the body of Christ. The body of flesh was changed into a glorified body and rose from the tomb.

Jesus bore our sins in His body. Jesus never had any sin that was His own. A Spotless Lamb of God His blood was given to atone for our sins.

The body of Christ received it's mortality when our sins were placed upon it. It was raised again in immortality when it was reunited with His Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Your assertion is esoteric and not scriptural.

Romans 10:9 states, "If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that He was raised from the dead, you will be saved."

What more has to be said. Jesus died on the cross, regardless of how, He died.

I only bring up esoteric knowledge because it is the overriding basis of your theology. You do not view the scriptures like the Bereans but through the lens of your "holy spirit baptism".

Regardless of what you say it is the blood of Christ that atones for our sins. Water baptism will never save. Only the Holy Spirit has the power to transform the dead in sin to alive in Christ.

Jesus body became mortal when our sins were laid upon Him. His body was raised in immortality when Jesus was reunited with His glorified body. Flesh and bones yes but changed and immortal.

The promise is that we too will be raised in immortality like our Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

Yes... I understand what you are saying... I just disagree with your conclusions.

Like DJ2 said, if Jesus did not die on the cross, then he was never resurrected, and our faith is worthless..

It is not his physical corrupted body that was resurrected it died to show spirit life not seen was given. It was changed and did not see corruption because of the spiritual change. a new temporal body to witness the work of the unseen . One that seems to defy nature for a short while until the day he departed returning to the glory he had as the Son of God (not seen)

I would offer that we put on the prescription if I could use spiritual lenses to see things more clearly through this dark looking glass we have faith through.

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

I would suggest we must distinguish between the things of men’s flesh as that seen the temporal ....and those of God’s Spirit not seen, the eternal .

Its there where the father of lies gets his foot hold on a person or a denomination

Son of God...(Jesus)the Spirit of Christ not seen, the eternal.

Son of man...(Jesus) the flesh of men as that seen, the temporal

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Num 23:19

To repent is to comfort. To comfort is the work of the Holy Spirit not seen. God does not except worship in respect to that seen. Even Jesus as the Son of man resisted that which could only belong to one unseen. He declared saying ;"when the comforter comes" avoid men seek after His Holy Spirit by attributing the unseen work in respect to the flesh as that seen we do not draw faith in respect to that seen .

Two kinds of blasphemy. That kind of blasphemy will be forgiven because men have it in respect to that seen. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as the Son of God will not. it shuts the door of faith and men will be found like the the virgin with no oil for their lamps . they would not be considered the chaste virgin bride the church.


When the Son of man was called good Master /teacher/Rabbi .The Son of man said only God not seen is good . He instructs us to walk by faith the unseen. For no man can serve two masters ...both the flesh as that seen, and the Spirit of Christ, not seen.

Another example that informs us God could never be a temporal being as man as us. And neither would the Son of man claim to be a Pope an infallible interpreter that we can see with our eye approved by both God and man to stand between God not seen and man seen (daysman) as a umpire between the two.

Easton's dictionary ....Daysman an umpire or arbiter or judge (Job 9:33). This word is formedfrom the Latin diem dicere, i.e., to fix a day for hearing acause. Such an one is empowered by mutual consent to decide thecause, and to "lay his hand", i.e., to impose his authority, onboth, and enforce his sentence.

For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.Neither is there any "daysman" betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Job 9:32

The seed of David according to the flesh; represented by the Son of man, Jesus.

Flesh gives birth to flesh seen .Spirit give birth to spirit not seen

The things of God not seen are reconciled by the spiritual seed Christ the mutual seed of faith in all believers according to the Spirit (the Son of God) the eternal Spirit of holiness. No such thing as the flesh of holiness.

The Son of man in respect to his own flesh declared it as that seen cannot profit, as if it was spirit not seen. the law of faith . Again he said only God (not seen) is good.

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David "according to the flesh"; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Rom 1:3

 

[DJ2]

Regardless of what you say it is the blood of Christ that atones for our sins. Water baptism will never save. Only the Holy Spirit has the power to transform the dead in sin to alive in Christ.

Jesus body became mortal when our sins were laid upon Him. His body was raised in immortality when Jesus was reunited with His glorified body. Flesh and bones yes but changed and immortal.

The promise is that we too will be raised in immortality like our Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Again, none of your words prove that Jesus was not fully and physically man. None of your words proves that He did not physically die on the cross. Where are your verses (not esoteric understanding) that support your assertion?

 

[Johnny_B]

True baptism is not by water but by the Spirit itself. So we ought not to think that water baptism can save us,
or is necessary for salvation. Our salvation comes from believing the word, that is when we are truly baptized.
That is the difference between the baptism of John and the baptism of Jesus.
Water baptism was a picture and shadow of the true baptism. I think though that if a person believes that they need to be water baptized, then they should do it for conscious sake.

Really you take baptism that lightly that if a person feels the need to be baptized do it, but if not no worries. Are you kidding me? What did Jesus say?

Matthew 28:18-20 "And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

The Lord supper and baptism are sacraments they we need to observe. Baptism is one that I go back and forth on, everyone needs to be baptized. I just find it interesting that after the Gospels and the book of Acts there is no mention of water baptism. The only one portion of Scripture that mentions water in it's context, calling it an anti-type or it corresponse to it.

I Peter 3:20g-22 "were saved through water.21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him."

We get baptized because we have a good conscience toward God, not to get the good conscience.

 

[DJ2]

The root cause of much of the confusion that is associated with baptism is the "trust only" theology. It is this notion that forces such strange positions on what is really rather simple.

God has ordained, (for whatever reason) the act of water baptism as the point of salvation to those who trust in His gospel.

It does not matter why He has chosen this mode, it only matters that we trust His will and not our own.

Is faith needed, of course.

Is obedience to that faith needed, of course.

Rev. 14:12 states, "This calls for endurance from the saints, who keeps God's commands and their faith in Jesus".

Unless you can accept the Word of God as the sole authority on these issues you will never fully trust God at His word.

 

[graceNpeace]

The root cause of much of the confusion that is associated with baptism is the "trust only" theology. It is this notion that forces such strange positions on what is really rather simple.

God has ordained, (for whatever reason) the act of water baptism as the point of salvation to those who trust in His gospel.

It does not matter why He has chosen this mode, it only matters that we trust His will and not our own.

Is faith needed, of course.

Is obedience to that faith needed, of course.

Rev. 14:12 states, "This calls for endurance from the saints, who keeps God's commands and their faith in Jesus".

Unless you can accept the Word of God as the sole authority on these issues you will never fully trust God at His word.

The only thing that I struggle with is your interpretation...

 

[notuptome]

Again, none of your words prove that Jesus was not fully and physically man. None of your words proves that He did not physically die on the cross. Where are your verses (not esoteric understanding) that support your assertion?

Jesus was fully divine. His body never saw sin. Only through His blood can we have forgiveness of our sin.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[hornetguy]

Jesus was fully divine. His body never saw sin. Only through His blood can we have forgiveness of our sin.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Well, you are half right. He was fully divine, and fully human. God cannot be tempted.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore, since the children share in [SUP][g][/SUP]flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, [SUP]15 [/SUP]and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For assuredly He does not [SUP][h][/SUP]give help to angels, but He gives help to the [SUP][i][/SUP]descendant of Abraham. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore, He [SUP][j][/SUP]had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

 

[mailmandan]

The root cause of much of the confusion that is associated with baptism is the "trust only" theology. It is this notion that forces such strange positions on what is really rather simple.

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to fully trust in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through FAITH.

God has ordained, (for whatever reason) the act of water baptism as the point of salvation to those who trust in His gospel.

According to the Roman Catholic church, the Mormon church, the church of Christ and other works-salvationists, but not according to Scripture (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18 etc..). The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).

*The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all those who believe by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

It does not matter why He has chosen this mode, it only matters that we trust His will and not our own.

He has not chosen water baptism as the point or means of our salvation. Are you trusting in God's will or the will of your church? I trust in God's will: John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Is faith needed, of course.

Not your version of faith, which amounts to "mental assent" belief + works but genuine faith that trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Is obedience to that faith needed, of course.

Obedience which is produced out of faith and follows saving faith in Christ is works and we are saved through faith, not works, but FOR good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Rev. 14:12 states, "This calls for endurance from the saints, who keeps God's commands and their faith in Jesus".

Revelation 14:12 - (NASB) Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. BTY the word "keep" (Greek word tereo) which means to "guard, observe, watch over, properly maintain, keep intact." There are those in the sinless perfection camp who seem to believe that "keep" His commandments means sinless, perfect obedience to all of God's commandments 100% of the time, but that is not the case.

*John, using descriptive language, gives us a description of those who keep His commandments (believers) and those who do not keep His commandments (unbelievers). John clearly explains in 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (demonstrative evidence) if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Unless you can accept the Word of God as the sole authority on these issues you will never fully trust God at His word.

Refusing to fully trust in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation is not fully trusting God at His word (Acts 15:7; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16; 10:16; Ephesians 1:13).

 

[notuptome]

Well, you are half right. He was fully divine, and fully human. God cannot be tempted.

I never said Jesus wasn't fully God and fully human. I just pointed out that Jesus was also sinless. Tempted forty days in the desert yet Jesus did not give in to temptation.

This does not increase your understanding of water baptism. Nor does it help those who are repulsed by the blood of Christ to see their need of true Holy Spirit baptism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

The root cause of much of the confusion that is associated with baptism is the "trust only" theology. It is this notion that forces such strange positions on what is really rather simple.

God has ordained, (for whatever reason) the act of water baptism as the point of salvation to those who trust in His gospel.

It does not matter why He has chosen this mode, it only matters that we trust His will and not our own.

Is faith needed, of course.

Is obedience to that faith needed, of course.

Rev. 14:12 states, "This calls for endurance from the saints, who keeps God's commands and their faith in Jesus".

Unless you can accept the Word of God as the sole authority on these issues you will never fully trust God at His word.

Salvation is by grace. Grace is the only thing required for salvation. Works are not grace. Water baptism is a work. Obedience is a work.

Forgiveness of sin is only supplied in the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[garee]

Really you take baptism that lightly that if a person feels the need to be baptized do it, but if not no worries. Are you kidding me? What did Jesus say?

Matthew 28:18-20 "And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

The Lord supper and baptism are sacraments they we need to observe. Baptism is one that I go back and forth on, everyone needs to be baptized. I just find it interesting that after the Gospels and the book of Acts there is no mention of water baptism. The only one portion of Scripture that mentions water in it's context, calling it an anti-type or it corresponse to it.

I Peter 3:20g-22 "were saved through water.21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him."

We get baptized because we have a good conscience toward God, not to get the good conscience.

Baptizing in the authority of the gospel the name of God, it is not the same as the ceremonial baptism..... shadows used to govern ceremonies.

Worshiping shadows as cerimoinal laws is not worshiping God.as if the kingdom of God was of this world and we did walk by sight.

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[garee]

God has ordained, (for whatever reason) the act of water baptism as the point of salvation to those who trust in His gospel.

It’s an evil generation, the generation of Adam natural man that seeks to believe after a sign, before they will believe.

The reason stems from an Old Testament ceremonial law .We walk by faith not by sight after some ceremony we perform. The Jews sough after signs in that way just a Pentecostal today with there what they call sign gift. A sign to whom ? Their own selves. They stumbled over the cross . No sign will be given other that the one that has been (sign of Noah) Christ fulfilled it. .

Just as in the days of Noah the same as today there were earthquakes and rumors of war everything goes as usual every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Christ came as a thief in the night. We walk by faith (the unseen) not after a prideful heart according to what we perform.

That I believe would be following down the wide road the three avenues spoken of in 1 John. Christ says they have received their reward of false fame . The three work together as one .

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 

[DJ2]

Salvation is by grace. Grace is the only thing required for salvation. Works are not grace. Water baptism is a work. Obedience is a work.

Forgiveness of sin is only supplied in the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Your theology seems to be just a series of bromides.

Is the effort to accept the grace not a work? Is unaccepted grace of any value?

Are you proponent of pre-destination or universal reconciliation? You seem to be a little of both.

 

[notuptome]

Your theology seems to be just a series of bromides.

Is the effort to accept the grace not a work? Is unaccepted grace of any value?

Are you proponent of pre-destination or universal reconciliation? You seem to be a little of both.

Your theology seems to be in opposition to the blood of Christ in favor of water baptism.

You seem to favor deeming yourself better than others and therefore meriting consideration from God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[DJ2]

Your theology seems to be in opposition to the blood of Christ in favor of water baptism.

You seem to favor deeming yourself better than others and therefore meriting consideration from God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You really don't like responding to direct questions, do you. They were not trick or leading questions. Think about them and reply with a answer. I would truly like to understand how what you wrote could lead someone to Christ.

My reply that your "theology seems to be just a series of bromides" was not an attempt to be rude but an honest comment on what you wrote, nothing more.