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Thread: True Baptism

  1. #41
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    Default Re: True Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by OneFaith View Post
    God will not be separated. The Word (Jesus) and the Spirit work together. There is one Lord, one Faith, and one Baptism.
    Ephesians 4:5 - There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

    1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. There is only one baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.

    Peter said "Repent and be baptized and you will receive the Holy Spirit."
    In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

    *Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

    *In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47 - this is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

    *So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

    And God says in 1 Peter 3:21 "baptism doth save you." And we know this is water baptism, because it explains that it's not about removing dirt from the flesh. (It's not a bath).
    In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

    *Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

    During baptism God performs circumcision of the heart. (Col 2)
    No, a symbol is not the reality and does not cause the reality, but is a picture of the reality. In Colossians 2:12, the context shows that baptism is presented as the New Testament counterpart of circumcision in the Old Testament. They are presented in a careful parallel to each other. The one who is "in Christ" is circumcised with a circumcision made "without hands." The parallel usage of circumcision and baptism demands that we understand the "baptism" to be made "without hands" also.

    Romans 2:28-29 shows clearly that it is not physical circumcision "made with hands" but spiritual circumcision which makes one truly a Jew and one of Abraham's children. Since baptism is the New Testament counterpart to circumcision in the Old Testament, we may therefore understand Romans 2:28-29 to have the same meaning in relation to baptism that it has in relation to circumcision: For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not from men but from God.

    Only those in Christ will be saved- that makes it the most important thing ever! Because there is only one way the Bible tells us that we get into Christ- we are baptized into Christ (Romans 6:3)
    Water baptism pictures a person being buried with Christ and being raised to new life with Christ. This symbolizes the person's union with, and incorporation into Christ by the action of the Holy Spirit which previously took place when we believed the gospel. Water baptism is an outward, physical symbol of the inward, spiritual conversion of Christians. In regards to verses 3-5, the allusion is to the SYMBOLISM of baptism which was the OUTWARD SIGN of the separation. Baptized into water is not the same as being Spirit baptized into the body of Christ.

    So we are "water baptized into Christ" in the same sense that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses" (1 Corinthians 10:2). Not literally baptized into the body of Moses here and there is little dispute that being "baptized into Moses" signified the open allegiance and public identification of the people of God with Moses. Moses was formally recognized as the leader of the covenant people. Water baptism signifies our allegiance and public identification with Christ as our Savior.

    Baptism is obeying the gospel. The Bible says that the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. When we get baptized we die to our sinful self, bury our old sinful self in the watery grave of baptism, and are raised a new creature. "With flames of fire (hell) He will take vengeance on those who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of His Son."
    Baptism is not even a part of the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4). We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" Those who obey not the gospel of His Son are those who refuse to believe the gospel by refusing to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Such people trust in works for salvation. You continue to confuse the picture (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism). Typical church of Christ indoctrination.

    Therefore, how can anyone say it's not important?
    Water baptism is important (so are many other things), but that does not make it the instrumental means by which we receive salvation.
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    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: True Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Water baptism is important... but that does not make it the instrumental means by which we receive salvation.
    Exactly. And the proof of that is found in Acts chapter 10. Those Gentiles heard the Gospel, repented, believed the Gospel, and received the gift of the Holy Spirit (just like those Jews in Acts chapter 2). And only after the Jews with Peter heard these Gentiles speak in tongues did they believe that the Gentiles too had been saved and received the gift of the Holy Ghost. And only after that were they commanded to be baptized. Acts 10 is one of the most significant chapters in the book of Acts.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: True Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkHasFaith View Post
    I have been water baptized myself, when I was younger, but it did not mean anything to me.
    For a long time I believed that I needed to get baptize with natural water for salvation
    I have spoke to many people that believe that it is needed for salvation. It's not when
    studying the word myself that I found out that it wasn't true. Anyone can say I accept Christ
    and be baptized in water, but it does not mean that they truly believe and accept Christ and are saved,
    just as myself. God revealed to me that it's when I truly believed is when I was baptized, along with
    every one else.
    just as is it is written baptism without faith is just water.
    If you don't believe in true love then please don't tell me not to believe in it because I believe it to be real.

    You are perfect?
    self righteousness is as filthy rags the bible says.
    You might wanna reconsider that ideal.

    We are all family in God's eyes,so please at least try to get along,sincerely, a child of God.

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    Default Re: True Baptism

    If it doesn't save you or have any part in salvation, why do it at all?

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    Default Re: True Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by Dai3234 View Post
    If it doesn't save you or have any part in salvation, why do it at all?
    Water baptism as an outward demonstration of an internal reality is an important part of evangelism.
    As for the person getting water baptised there is a spiritual benefit - most Christians that I have asked agree with tis although the reasons given vary a lot.

    As someone who has extensive involvement in missions it is very noteworthy that pagan cultures seem to really understand the significance of water baptism as a firm demonstration of faith. In some instances the response can be very negative where baptised individuals are at risk from violent death. Often, violence may not be the problem but one may yet be subject to social and commercial ostracism. Those being baptised will understand the risks but proceed nonetheless - this is a very powerful witness...

    A lot we do as Christians has nothing to do with salvation directly, I mean, why bother going to church - church attendance does not save one either!
    So lets get a bit of perspective here...

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    Default Re: True Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by graceNpeace View Post
    Water baptism as an outward demonstration of an internal reality is an important part of evangelism.
    As for the person getting water baptised there is a spiritual benefit - most Christians that I have asked agree with tis although the reasons given vary a lot.

    As someone who has extensive involvement in missions it is very noteworthy that pagan cultures seem to really understand the significance of water baptism as a firm demonstration of faith. In some instances the response can be very negative where baptised individuals are at risk from violent death. Often, violence may not be the problem but one may yet be subject to social and commercial ostracism. Those being baptised will understand the risks but proceed nonetheless - this is a very powerful witness...

    A lot we do as Christians has nothing to do with salvation directly, I mean, why bother going to church - church attendance does not save one either!
    So lets get a bit of perspective here...
    Yes, but in western baptism, it's indoors, in view of believers only anyway, so it's not much of a evangelising image etc if everyone believes.

    In a poor country that uses a lake, maybe a strong message, but in western/modern UK, they won't give you a baptism except for a long period later from attending church.

    Like a hypocritical reward. Church attendance is not biblical in regards to one pastor preaching and everyone listening anyway. Week after week after week, and the congregation evangelises every 3months on beach missions, or Halloween missions. But day to day, oh that's for missionaries not us.
    It's a joke. Just make sure someone knows the gospel and reason for baptism, then baptize or quit preaching. Because your not doing your job, maybe. What do I know.

    Maybe it was always wait a few years before baptism?? Nonsense. Makes me sick. I hope preachers will do their job one day....

  7. #47


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    Default Re: True Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Ephesians 4:5 - There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

    1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. There is only one baptism that places us into the body of Christ and that is Spirit baptism, not water baptism.

    In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

    *Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

    *In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47 - this is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

    *So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

    In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

    *Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

    No, a symbol is not the reality and does not cause the reality, but is a picture of the reality. In Colossians 2:12, the context shows that baptism is presented as the New Testament counterpart of circumcision in the Old Testament. They are presented in a careful parallel to each other. The one who is "in Christ" is circumcised with a circumcision made "without hands." The parallel usage of circumcision and baptism demands that we understand the "baptism" to be made "without hands" also.

    Romans 2:28-29 shows clearly that it is not physical circumcision "made with hands" but spiritual circumcision which makes one truly a Jew and one of Abraham's children. Since baptism is the New Testament counterpart to circumcision in the Old Testament, we may therefore understand Romans 2:28-29 to have the same meaning in relation to baptism that it has in relation to circumcision: For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not from men but from God.

    Water baptism pictures a person being buried with Christ and being raised to new life with Christ. This symbolizes the person's union with, and incorporation into Christ by the action of the Holy Spirit which previously took place when we believed the gospel. Water baptism is an outward, physical symbol of the inward, spiritual conversion of Christians. In regards to verses 3-5, the allusion is to the SYMBOLISM of baptism which was the OUTWARD SIGN of the separation. Baptized into water is not the same as being Spirit baptized into the body of Christ.

    So we are "water baptized into Christ" in the same sense that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses" (1 Corinthians 10:2). Not literally baptized into the body of Moses here and there is little dispute that being "baptized into Moses" signified the open allegiance and public identification of the people of God with Moses. Moses was formally recognized as the leader of the covenant people. Water baptism signifies our allegiance and public identification with Christ as our Savior.

    Baptism is not even a part of the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4). We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" Those who obey not the gospel of His Son are those who refuse to believe the gospel by refusing to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Such people trust in works for salvation. You continue to confuse the picture (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism). Typical church of Christ indoctrination.

    Water baptism is important (so are many other things), but that does not make it the instrumental means by which we receive salvation.
    Your long drawn out discourses on why what is written does not mean what is stated is typical of a preconceived mindset. The Bible is not written to confuse but to express God's will to those who seek Him. For someone to read these verses and accept your view of them would need to be taught such. No one writes in such a way and expects a understanding of "water baptism is important but....".

    With your line of reasoning one could say,

    walking around the walls of Jericho is important but .....
    gazing upon the brass snake is important but .....
    washing in the Pool of Sialom is important but .....
    dipping seven times in the Jordan River is important but....
    etc.

    The Bible certainly does state that water baptism is "the instrumental means by which we receive salvation".
    This truth does not make baptism a work of merit anymore then the blind man gaining his sight by obeying the command to wash. All your twisted reasoning will not change this.
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  8. #48


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    Default Re: True Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by graceNpeace View Post
    Water baptism as an outward demonstration of an internal reality is an important part of evangelism.
    As for the person getting water baptised there is a spiritual benefit - most Christians that I have asked agree with tis although the reasons given vary a lot.

    As someone who has extensive involvement in missions it is very noteworthy that pagan cultures seem to really understand the significance of water baptism as a firm demonstration of faith. In some instances the response can be very negative where baptised individuals are at risk from violent death. Often, violence may not be the problem but one may yet be subject to social and commercial ostracism. Those being baptised will understand the risks but proceed nonetheless - this is a very powerful witness...

    A lot we do as Christians has nothing to do with salvation directly, I mean, why bother going to church - church attendance does not save one either!
    So lets get a bit of perspective here...
    Your response still does not answer his question. Why should we do it?

    Attempting to answer his question with another question, "why bother going to church" is not an answer.
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    Senior Member mailmandan's Avatar
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    Default Re: True Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    Your long drawn out discourses on why what is written does not mean what is stated is typical of a preconceived mindset. The Bible is not written to confuse but to express God's will to those who seek Him. For someone to read these verses and accept your view of them would need to be taught such. No one writes in such a way and expects a understanding of "water baptism is important but....".

    With your line of reasoning one could say,

    walking around the walls of Jericho is important but .....
    gazing upon the brass snake is important but .....
    washing in the Pool of Sialom is important but .....
    dipping seven times in the Jordan River is important but....
    etc.

    The Bible certainly does state that water baptism is "the instrumental means by which we receive salvation".
    This truth does not make baptism a work of merit anymore then the blind man gaining his sight by obeying the command to wash. All your twisted reasoning will not change this.
    I knew that you would eventually post on this thread, since the topic is about your favorite subject, baptism. All your twisted reasoning will not change the fact that man is saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

    The Israelites received Jericho (not eternal life) after they marched around the city for seven days. Salvation is a free gift received through faith, not through faith "plus" marching around a city.

    John 3:14 - And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. The point of the analogy is "lifted up." Just as Moses "lifted up" the snake on the pole so that all who looked upon it in faith may live physically, those who look to Christ in faith who was "lifted up" on the cross will live spiritually and eternally.

    Washing in the pool of Siloam resulted in healing from physical blindness and was not the instrumental means by which the blind man received the gift of eternal life.

    In regards to Naaman, in the first place, if being healed from leprosy is an illustration of salvation, we have another case that reveals one can be saved without any water. Read it in (Luke 5:12-15). No water is found here. Secondly, Naaman was not even a believer until after dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (vs. 17). If we follow this "example," we will have to baptized unbelievers! Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins.

    *The NT uses the experience of Naaman as illustrative of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD, not of salvation through baptism. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with salvation through baptism, but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out (2 Kings 5:15).

    Your arguments are typical church of Christ smoke and mirrors that equate to salvation by works. People in the church of Christ would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: True Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by joefizz View Post
    just as is it is written baptism without faith is just water.
    I believe what MarkHasFaith is saying is baptism with or without faith is just water.

    What is written is not as important as what God revealed to him personally. Reread his post.

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: True Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by Dai3234 View Post
    If it doesn't save you or have any part in salvation, why do it at all?
    Because it is a commandment of Christ. The first thing that a saved sinner must do is OBEY God and Christ. That is why when Paul was confronted by the Lord Jesus Christ and brought to repentance, the first words out of his mouth were "LORD, WHAT WILL THOU HAVE ME TO DO?" So if a converted sinner asked the Lord this question today, He would command him to be baptized by immersion in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. And that would only be step one.

    Many churches and many Christians have failed to understand the importance and necessity of baptizing believers IMMEDIATELY after they are saved. But that is the Scriptural pattern, and therefore the Lord sent His disciple Ananias specifically to Paul to baptize him and that he would recover his sight.
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    Default Re: True Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I knew that you would eventually post on this thread, since the topic is about your favorite subject, baptism. All your twisted reasoning will not change the fact that man is saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

    The Israelites received Jericho (not eternal life) after they marched around the city for seven days. Salvation is a free gift received through faith, not through faith "plus" marching around a city.

    John 3:14 - And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. The point of the analogy is "lifted up." Just as Moses "lifted up" the snake on the pole so that all who looked upon it in faith may live physically, those who look to Christ in faith who was "lifted up" on the cross will live spiritually and eternally.

    Washing in the pool of Siloam resulted in healing from physical blindness and was not the instrumental means by which the blind man received the gift of eternal life.

    In regards to Naaman, in the first place, if being healed from leprosy is an illustration of salvation, we have another case that reveals one can be saved without any water. Read it in (Luke 5:12-15). No water is found here. Secondly, Naaman was not even a believer until after dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (vs. 17). If we follow this "example," we will have to baptized unbelievers! Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins.

    *The NT uses the experience of Naaman as illustrative of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD, not of salvation through baptism. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with salvation through baptism, but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out (2 Kings 5:15).

    Your arguments are typical church of Christ smoke and mirrors that equate to salvation by works. People in the church of Christ would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water.
    My examples were not meant to be about salvation but whatever the reward that was expected, i.e. healing, sight or destroyed walls. Regardless of the expected reward the reasoning is the same, obedience was the instrument to the means. We may debate what is to be obeyed but not the need to obey.

    The common thread to these examples is obedience to the Word of God, which is the "flow and form" of the Bible. Any student of the Bible can see this pattern. God commands, man obeys, man is rewarded.

    Can you at least see this theme?

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    Default Re: True Baptism

    We all should have the True Baptism.

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    Default Re: True Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkHasFaith View Post
    True baptism is not by water but by the Spirit itself. So we ought not to think that water baptism can save us,
    or is necessary for salvation. Our salvation comes from believing the word, that is when we are truly baptized.
    That is the difference between the baptism of John and the baptism of Jesus.
    Water baptism was a picture and shadow of the true baptism. I think though that if a person believes that they need to be water baptized, then they should do it for conscious sake.
    Holy Spirit Baptism is when your heart is actually Changed.

    Prior to a Holy Spirit Baptism a persons heart is selfish, they desire to please the flesh, they desire to please self, they do things that please their own selves, they build better and nicer homes for themself, they get nicer cars for themself, they desire to prosper financially for themself. They desire to climb up the ladder of success for themself. These only take thought for self and their own kin.
    After a Holy Spirit Baptism a person heart is Changed, it no longer desires to please the flesh, they desire to please others, not their own self. They will desire to help the needing, feed the poor, they will care less about getting nicer homes, cars, clothes but will desire that their neighbor gets those things. They will be content with what they have and will desire nothing more. They will have a desire to please Jesus Christ above all else, they will also hate sin, because they are made full aware that it is sin that put Jesus on the cross in the first place. Those who get Holy Spirit baptized their whole life will change, they will no longer be the same person, but another person altogether, even to the point their own families will say he/she has changed. These are a NEW person in Christ, no longer doing the deeds of the OLD man.
    Anyone can be water baptized and still walk through the gates of Hell.
    But a person who is Holy Ghost baptized will have the Strength and Power of Jesus Christ to overcome all temptations that comes upon them.
    Water baptized = Many
    Holy Ghost baptized = Very Few.

    ^i^

    ††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

    DiscipleDave
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    Default Re: True Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by Dai3234 View Post
    Yes, but in western baptism, it's indoors, in view of believers only anyway, so it's not much of a evangelising image etc if everyone believes.

    In a poor country that uses a lake, maybe a strong message, but in western/modern UK, they won't give you a baptism except for a long period later from attending church.

    Like a hypocritical reward. Church attendance is not biblical in regards to one pastor preaching and everyone listening anyway. Week after week after week, and the congregation evangelises every 3months on beach missions, or Halloween missions. But day to day, oh that's for missionaries not us.
    It's a joke. Just make sure someone knows the gospel and reason for baptism, then baptize or quit preaching. Because your not doing your job, maybe. What do I know.

    Maybe it was always wait a few years before baptism?? Nonsense. Makes me sick. I hope preachers will do their job one day....
    You need to get out more - your experience is not necessarily the norm...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    Your response still does not answer his question. Why should we do it?

    Attempting to answer his question with another question, "why bother going to church" is not an answer.
    I did answer the question.
    The problem, from your perspective, is that I refuse to acknowledge your false view of baptismal regeneration, thats all.

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    Default Re: True Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    My examples were not meant to be about salvation but whatever the reward that was expected, i.e. healing, sight or destroyed walls. Regardless of the expected reward the reasoning is the same, obedience was the instrument to the means. We may debate what is to be obeyed but not the need to obey.

    The common thread to these examples is obedience to the Word of God, which is the "flow and form" of the Bible. Any student of the Bible can see this pattern. God commands, man obeys, man is rewarded.

    Can you at least see this theme?
    Yes, obedience was the instrumental means to receiving the reward or blessing in these situations that you listed in regards to healing, sight, destroyed walls. Not to be confused with receiving the free gift of eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:23-26). Choosing to believe the gospel (and not water baptism) is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16; 10:16).
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Default Re: True Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by graceNpeace View Post
    I did answer the question.
    The problem, from your perspective, is that I refuse to acknowledge your false view of baptismal regeneration, thats all.
    Regardless of what you think of my perspective, you did not answer the question. You explained what you think it is, "an outward demonstration of an internal reality" and "a firm demonstration of faith" but not the why it should be done?

    If baptism is an optional act of demonstration of faith what purpose does it serve? If the outward pledge is optional why subject yourself to the violence?

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    Default Re: True Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Yes, obedience was the instrumental means to receiving the reward or blessing in these situations that you listed in regards to healing, sight, destroyed walls. Not to be confused with receiving the free gift of eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:23-26). Choosing to believe the gospel (and not water baptism) is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16; 10:16).
    I am truly impressed by your answer that, "obedience was the instrumental means to receiving the reward or blessing in these situations". With this we have at least a common ground.

    Many in the "trust alone" groups will not even accept this understanding of man's need to correctly respond to God's commands. It seems our debate mainly focuses on what is needed to be obeyed.

    If it helps, I do not believe that being baptized is an act that could warrant salvation. To believe such a thing would be absurd. Anyone who finds themselves in heaven will be there by God's grace and nothing else, but to say that man has no obligation to fulfill his respond to the gift is wrong. The wedding guest was thrown out the ceremony because of his lack of proper attention to the wishes of the master.

    I cannot ignore the very clear message that verses such as Acts 2:38 and others convey. They are not confusing but rather clear. It is your take on them which is confusing, a view forced to protect a "trust only" theology.

    There is no merit or reason to boast in the act of baptism. It is rather humbling to most and because of this a stumbling block to some.
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    Default Re: True Baptism

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    Anyone who finds themselves in heaven will be there by God's grace and nothing else, but to say that man has no obligation to fulfill his respond to the gift is wrong.
    Faith in Christ is how we receive the gift. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith (not faith and baptism) and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, 9 Not of works, lest anyone should boast. Yet people still insist on "adding works" to salvation through faith.

    I cannot ignore the very clear message that verses such as Acts 2:38 and others convey. They are not confusing but rather clear. It is your take on them which is confusing, a view forced to protect a "trust only" theology.
    I cannot ignore that fact that multiple passages of Scripture clearly teach that we are saved trough belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications" (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 10:4; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 which places water baptism as the instrumental cause of receiving remission of sins negates these multiple clear passages of Scripture and *Scripture must harmonize with Scripture.*

    In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis. Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

    *In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47 - this is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

    So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

    There is no merit or reason to boast in the act of baptism. It is rather humbling to most and because of this a stumbling block to some.
    Salvation by water baptism/baptismal regeneration is a stumbling block for those who refuse to place their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ alone for salvation. Placing our faith in Christ alone for salvation/choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation does not merit salvation. Through faith/believing the gospel, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Christ gets 100% of the merit.

    Getting water baptized is a work that "follows" placing faith in Christ for salvation/believing the gospel and if it's absolutely necessary for salvation, then that would add merit on our part to receiving salvation because then we would be saved based on the merit of Christ's finished work of redemption "plus our baptism," which would give reason to boast. I have even heard certain individuals in various false religions and cults proclaim that if you are not water baptized in "their" church using "their" formula by "their" minister then you won't be saved. Let the boasting begin.
    I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood.

    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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