We are told it is by our faith that we are saved by the grace of God, not by works

newton3003 · Jul 30, 2017

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Weare told that it is not by our works that we are saved by the graceof God, it is by our faith. [/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Indeed,Ephesians 2:8-9 says, “...by grace you have been saved throughfaith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God...” Tobe sure, Romans 3:28 says “For we hold that one is justified byfaith apart from works of the law.” Does that mean that faithalone, without works, will save us?[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Itell you that faith may be the key to getting saved, but it is ourworks that holds that key. And the fact is that the Bible tells usthat anyone who believes they are free from abiding by the Law thatwas given to Moses, and thus are free from any works performed infulfillment of the Law, do not fully understand the Scriptures.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Afew passages from the Scriptures come to mind. Romans 3:28 may saythat we are justified by faith apart from our works, but Romans 3:31says, “Do we then overthrow the Law by this faith? By no means! Onthe contrary, we uphold the law.” And did not Jesus in Matthew 5:17say, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or theProphets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”What is our understanding of our religion all about if it's not allabout Jesus? [/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Anddid not Jesus some up the Law in two great commandments, the firstbeing that we love God with all our heart, soul and mind, and thesecond being that we love eachother as we do ourselves? How can welove eachother by not showing it through our works? Is it enough tosay to the Lord that we love our neighbor, without the neighborhaving any inking that we love them? For if we do nothing for ourneighbor, that neighbor is to us as a stranger we may pass on thesidewalk. It is not enough that we merely say to God that we love ourneighbor. [/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Itis not enough to say to God that we have faith in Him. Indeed, Jesusin Matthew 7:21 says, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord,Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but THE ONE WHO DOES THEWILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven. Doing something results in theperformance of works, does it not?[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]So,it is not enough to say “Lord, Lord.” Under Jesus we are held toabiding by and fulfilling the Law given to Moses, as he hadproclaimed himself to be. Some may say that because Jesus died forour sins, we no longer have to abide by the Law. Really? That's notwhat Romans 3:31 above says. And to that point, James 2:10 says,“...whoever keeps the whole Law but fails in one point has becomeguilty of all of it.” Does that passage speak only to the Jews whohave vowed to uphold the Law given to Moses? Jesus didn't think so.And if you see a brother who wants our politicians to enact lawsagainst abortion and homosexuality and LGBT, but at the same time areagainst politicians who want to enact laws that help the poor andneedy and encourage loving the strangers among us, they are guilty ofnot abiding by the whole Law as stated in James 2:10.[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri, sans-serif]Yes,we are justified by faith and not by works, but will God believe wehave faith in Him by ignoring His Law that requires action andtherefore works by us? I don't think so.[/FONT]

Jackson123 · Jul 30, 2017

Yep salvation is by faith alone, but I believe Martin warn us, faith that saved is not alone

depend on our understanding what is faith

some people believe faith mean believe that Jesus is God. Than you can kill people every day, rob the bank every day rape every day, you still His son and go to heaven. You only lose your reward. Salvation is not by work, reward is.

I believe this doctrine is encourage crime and not biblical.

the Bible said not because you call me God you go to heaven. By doing the will of the Father you go to heaven.

what is the will of the Father. The will of the Father is Love your God with all your strength, that include have a faith in Jesus/ love Jesus, and love your fellow man.

If you love Jesus than you do what Jesus ask you to do, not Killing

If you do not Love Jesus than do not expect go to His house/heaven

If you love your fellow man you not harm them, you not rob them, you do love work for them.

Yes salvation is by faith alone, but faith that save will produce love work

Blain · Jul 30, 2017

I have been wondering for a while now what really makes a person saved, yes the scriptures say if you believe and have faith you are saved yet how many false prophets and arrogant false teachers have both these things yet show anything but the fruits of the spirit? Or why do many claim the title Christian yet are not so by heart? before I was saved I believed he was God and while I cannot say I had faith in him even before I was saved I somehow just knew this alone was not enough I wanted an actual bond with him an actual connection it wasn't enough for me to simply have faith and believe in him i wanted him to be real to me.

The only thing I can think of why I am truly saved and not under the guise of a Christian by title only is because of that bond that he and I made, when that connection of our hearts was made that is when I found him. But as for faith and works well it is true we are not saved by works but I can't seem to get past the whole faith saves things because there seems to be something more to it than that something deeper and more meaningful

resurrection33 · Jul 30, 2017

newton3003 said:

Weare told that it is not by our works that we are saved by the graceof God, it is by our faith.

Indeed,Ephesians 2:8-9 says, “...by grace you have been saved throughfaith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God...” Tobe sure, Romans 3:28 says “For we hold that one is justified byfaith apart from works of the law.” Does that mean that faithalone, without works, will save us?

Itell you that faith may be the key to getting saved, but it is ourworks that holds that key. And the fact is that the Bible tells usthat anyone who believes they are free from abiding by the Law thatwas given to Moses, and thus are free from any works performed infulfillment of the Law, do not fully understand the Scriptures.

Afew passages from the Scriptures come to mind. Romans 3:28 may saythat we are justified by faith apart from our works, but Romans 3:31says, “Do we then overthrow the Law by this faith? By no means! Onthe contrary, we uphold the law.” And did not Jesus in Matthew 5:17say, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or theProphets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”What is our understanding of our religion all about if it's not allabout Jesus?

Anddid not Jesus some up the Law in two great commandments, the firstbeing that we love God with all our heart, soul and mind, and thesecond being that we love eachother as we do ourselves? How can welove eachother by not showing it through our works? Is it enough tosay to the Lord that we love our neighbor, without the neighborhaving any inking that we love them? For if we do nothing for ourneighbor, that neighbor is to us as a stranger we may pass on thesidewalk. It is not enough that we merely say to God that we love ourneighbor.

Itis not enough to say to God that we have faith in Him. Indeed, Jesusin Matthew 7:21 says, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord,Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but THE ONE WHO DOES THEWILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven. Doing something results in theperformance of works, does it not?

So,it is not enough to say “Lord, Lord.” Under Jesus we are held toabiding by and fulfilling the Law given to Moses, as he hadproclaimed himself to be. Some may say that because Jesus died forour sins, we no longer have to abide by the Law. Really? That's notwhat Romans 3:31 above says. And to that point, James 2:10 says,“...whoever keeps the whole Law but fails in one point has becomeguilty of all of it.” Does that passage speak only to the Jews whohave vowed to uphold the Law given to Moses? Jesus didn't think so.And if you see a brother who wants our politicians to enact lawsagainst abortion and homosexuality and LGBT, but at the same time areagainst politicians who want to enact laws that help the poor andneedy and encourage loving the strangers among us, they are guilty ofnot abiding by the whole Law as stated in James 2:10.

Yes,we are justified by faith and not by works, but will God believe wehave faith in Him by ignoring His Law that requires action andtherefore works by us? I don't think so.

So I always wonder whether or not "obedience" is included in "works," because my own personal experience is that obeying the Lord frees me from the destruction sin brings into my life. I would conclude that there is more than one thing at work here. It is true we need to have faith in the Lord. It is also true we need to obey him.

Magenta · Jul 30, 2017

Blain said:

Legalistic institutions like the RCC greatly contribute to the deception. One needs to look no further than the 95 theses of Luther to see why he protested against such a corrupt church engaged in so many blatant abuses and perversions of Scripture.

Blain · Jul 30, 2017

I mean i don't generally like to dissect things like things because I think sometimes we just over think things and can only end more confused than before but with works and salvation they are two sides of the same coin yet at the same time alone by themselves they are greatly lacking. You take works for instance, like Resurrection stated is obedience a major factor? I have also noticed that the more I obey God the better off i seem to be in general not just in faith or in life but health wise as well as mentally and emotionally however obedience with the wrong motives in your heart can cause the opposite affect which is why I think the strict obedient conservative Christians are formed, it isn't enough to simply be obedient if your not doing it out love.

I have always been one to search my own heart and I tend to question my hearts motives and reasons for everything not just what i do but what I believe what i think I ponder why I keep going as a Christian even though I fail over and over and over again I ask why i seek to be strong and is my reason for being strong the same as his? Works even with the right motive can sometimes not work out but it is always the heart of the person that is the deciding factor even if it doesn't work out. works are seen all the time yet how many Christians do you hear complaining about fake Christian or that so many act the part but love is like a dry desert?

I think there is a formula of sorts that is within the believer and this formula was made and is known by God but we tend to not understand the formula or at least not fully. works and obedience,salvation and works these topics are highly debated among the Christian community yet no one seems to be able to come to a true conclusion to explain in great detail to where it just clicks in peoples minds and they are Ohhhhh now I get it. and that is just me rambling my own little thoughts as i am typing and dissecting this at the same time imagine if we were to have a deep discussion about this not debating but rather studying it dissecting it researching it searching our own hearts and adding what we got from it.

OneFaith · Jul 30, 2017

newton3003 said:

Weare told that it is not by our works that we are saved by the graceof God, it is by our faith.

Indeed,Ephesians 2:8-9 says, “...by grace you have been saved throughfaith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God...” Tobe sure, Romans 3:28 says “For we hold that one is justified byfaith apart from works of the law.” Does that mean that faithalone, without works, will save us?

Itell you that faith may be the key to getting saved, but it is ourworks that holds that key. And the fact is that the Bible tells usthat anyone who believes they are free from abiding by the Law thatwas given to Moses, and thus are free from any works performed infulfillment of the Law, do not fully understand the Scriptures.

Afew passages from the Scriptures come to mind. Romans 3:28 may saythat we are justified by faith apart from our works, but Romans 3:31says, “Do we then overthrow the Law by this faith? By no means! Onthe contrary, we uphold the law.” And did not Jesus in Matthew 5:17say, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or theProphets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”What is our understanding of our religion all about if it's not allabout Jesus?

Anddid not Jesus some up the Law in two great commandments, the firstbeing that we love God with all our heart, soul and mind, and thesecond being that we love eachother as we do ourselves? How can welove eachother by not showing it through our works? Is it enough tosay to the Lord that we love our neighbor, without the neighborhaving any inking that we love them? For if we do nothing for ourneighbor, that neighbor is to us as a stranger we may pass on thesidewalk. It is not enough that we merely say to God that we love ourneighbor.

Itis not enough to say to God that we have faith in Him. Indeed, Jesusin Matthew 7:21 says, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord,Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but THE ONE WHO DOES THEWILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven. Doing something results in theperformance of works, does it not?

So,it is not enough to say “Lord, Lord.” Under Jesus we are held toabiding by and fulfilling the Law given to Moses, as he hadproclaimed himself to be. Some may say that because Jesus died forour sins, we no longer have to abide by the Law. Really? That's notwhat Romans 3:31 above says. And to that point, James 2:10 says,“...whoever keeps the whole Law but fails in one point has becomeguilty of all of it.” Does that passage speak only to the Jews whohave vowed to uphold the Law given to Moses? Jesus didn't think so.And if you see a brother who wants our politicians to enact lawsagainst abortion and homosexuality and LGBT, but at the same time areagainst politicians who want to enact laws that help the poor andneedy and encourage loving the strangers among us, they are guilty ofnot abiding by the whole Law as stated in James 2:10.

Yes,we are justified by faith and not by works, but will God believe wehave faith in Him by ignoring His Law that requires action andtherefore works by us? I don't think so.

Our obedience does not earn grace, but He only gives grace to the obedient. Say I earned five pennies, and bought a mansion. I didn't buy a mansion, it was given to me. When the seller asked why he sold a mansion for five cents, he said "Because she was trying. You see, that girl's my daughter. I have another daughter, but she will not even try to do what I say. She gets nothing."

You see, no matter how many pennies I have, even 100 pennies, I could never earn the great gift of grace- which is far worth more than a million mansions, when I only have less than a hundred pennies. But my Father will give it to me free of charge because I try to obey Him.

oldethennew · Jul 30, 2017

call it want you want, but when our Saviour calls us, it's a 'done-deal'...it's really beyond our
imagination that there will be a 'falling-away'!?!?! but in this case, we do believe that it will happen,
as the scriptures have said - and is happening, right now!...

Real Conversion consists of 'signs, wonders, etc' oh yes', but, always 'different' for each and every one of us -
'His Ways'...else there would be un-over-coming doubting for us all: anyone can 'deny',
but they can't erase what our Father in Heaven has DONE bestowed, put inside of us,
us who belong to Him...

AKAP · Jul 30, 2017

This is a fascinating area that I’m still ‘working’ on.

I’ve come up with this as a way to segment works in my mind

Types of works:

1. Works that mimic Maslow hierarchy needs theory. They are performed by both believers an unbelievers, for safety, security, sustenance, ego needs etc. These types of work are not God spiritual, they are human spiritual.

2. Works that aim to please God by human effort or will/ self-motivated. They are disregarded by the spirit of God. Perform by the true unbeliever although can be a seeker.

3. Works that are common spiritual works and are moved by the spirit of God. These are works that are called by God’s spirit to be performed by a true believer only. They are common and expected. We yield our will to allow the spirit of truth to operate. It happens in a second with little notice or thought. The mind accepts the spirit’s rule. Examples are: Jumping out to help someone load a truck. Help someone shovel snow when you are late for an important appointment. When we show godly love to a neighbor and her/his time is your time. When you teach your child about an important concept about God, as you leave for work. When we struggle to write a book about God, and we still make quality time for family needs. The fruit of the spirit are visible in the acts.

4. These are true spiritual acts and are uncommon. They are triggered spontaneous within us to move over and allow the spirit of God drive. Usually no notice is given to the mind first. These acts often seem illogical as the start. They come from the spirit of God to move our spirit to do God’s will. These are the real spiritual works that are always visible in the fruit of the spirit. And these are sometimes caused by insights and the temporary gifts of the spirit given to us that most do not know they have... Examples: Being driven or called to visit someone without really knowing why? Sent or driven to speak to some people about God. Be compelled to move away or avoid a social group or gathering. Send to prophesize….

Works 3 and 4 are faith driven and they produce fruit. They are proof that we have the spiirt of God within and our salvation is real. If you notice that you are doing lots of genuine work of work 3, then you are cruising in the spirit. You do not keep count of work 3 or 4; they just happen as we are being obedient to the Lord.

TruthTalk · Jul 30, 2017

newton3003 said:

You are putting the emphasis on works as evidence that you are saved, were as the opposite is true; if there is anything to be said about our salvation our conversation should be about Jesus of Nazareth and what He has done. Look at the Apostle Paul's life, he counted all of his achievements as manure that he might gain Christ.

"What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ" Philippians 3:8

And then what works are you referring to; how often I pray, how much time do I spend studying God's word, do I attend Church meetings and fellowship. Do I confess my sins every time I do something wrong or have a bad thought? Where does it end? Abraham was justified by his faith, the Apostle Paul say's we are justified apart from the law of Moses. "Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses." Acts13:39. When Jesus said on the cross, "it is finished" John19:20, He did not say, I did my part, now the rest is up to you.

Your emphasis is on your works - if you can work for God's Grace, (unmerited favor), it is no longer by Grace you are saved.

DustyRhodes · Jul 30, 2017

1James 1:2..[h=3]Faith and Deeds[/h][SUP]14 [/SUP]What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? [SUP]15 [/SUP]Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. [SUP]16 [/SUP]If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? [SUP]17 [/SUP]In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

So this is not saying we need deeds to be saved at all. It does say that works help keep us on the
journey of the examples of Jesus. So this part has nothing to do with a better place in the next world
but rather to improve our live in Christ in this world today and every day. This gives us an example
of a spiritual Christian life.

oldethennew · Jul 30, 2017

2. "Works that aim to please God by human effort or will/ self-motivated. They are disregarded by the spirit of God. Perform by the true unbeliever although can be a seeker."

=================================================================

Yeshua, always, always, 'delights' in what our grateful 'hearts' want to give-back to Him,
for the most Holy Sacrifice imaginable!!! in any way that we can...

yes, hub still calls me 'poly-anna' in some of my ways of 'not understanding so much as of yet',
but,this is my goal, to try and understand my Saviour and WHY HE did what HE has done,
and why, for the likes of US!!!???
He doesn't NEED US - He chose us among all of the creatures that He created to be the
Head over them...Blessed First...

Let's try and live-up to His expectations of us, what have we got to loose?

MattforJesus · Jul 30, 2017

oldethennew said:

There is no falling away of the Church,but this falling away has to do with the condition of the world,when the world will not respond to the Bible,but want to hear the Bible according to their own lusts,turning their ears from the truth,and giving heed to fables,which are the imaginations of people,the new age religion that unify the religions,based on spiritual evolution through nature,and all religions interpreted as such,which God warns us of them in the Bible,that will appear at the latter times,the last days of the last days,and they will make it an international law that it is a hate crime to try to convert someone to their religion punishable in the international court system,for all are vaild with a core truth,and Christianity will rapidly decrease in impacting the world with the truth.

The unified religious system will spark a war between the religion of Islam,and the world,for they will not accept the interpretation of Islam presented by the unified religious system,and will not tolerate that they cannot spread their religion,and that war will be so terrible that the world turns to the man of sin to help them achieve peace on earth,who will claim to be God by harnessing the power of nature,and obtaining power,and they world says,who is like unto the beast,and who can make war with him.

The Church can never fall away,and Jesus said,the gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church,and the hypocrites do not belong to the Church,and in a great house there are some to honor,and some to dishonor,so there will be some rascals running around,and where 2 or 3 are gathered together in Jesus' name there He is in the midst of them.

The only people that can belong to the Church is those that act Christlike,and not hypocritical,so the Church can never fall away,for hypocrites,and those that do wrong can do no damage to the Church,for they do not beong to the Church,and there will be many hypocrites at the end time,but that does not make the Church fall away,but there is less in the truth,ratio wise,although a lot because it is a bigger population on the planet.

There can be 2 people on earth that are in the truth,and all the rest that claim Christ,hypocritical,and the Church still cannot fall away,it only means there is less people on earth in the Church.

The gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church,so how can it fall away.

The falling away is the condition of the world in response to the preaching of the Gospel in the world,that they do not want to hear the truth of it,but want to hear the Bible according to spiritual evolution that exalts people,looking at nature as their higher power,and Jesus is not Lord and Savior,but a good teacher in spiritual enlightenment,and will honor Him,but not for the right reason,and hindering the saints from preaching the truth of the Gospel by it being a hate crime if they do,and punishable in the international criminal court system,and they will be labeled as terroists,and it will pave the way for the man of sin to rule the world,who will support the new age movement.

oldethennew · Jul 30, 2017

you are very Kind Hearted, but we both do believe what the Bible says:
it's not Jesus who would EVER 'forsake us', it is some of us who
will fail/forsake Him,
'according to prophecy and modern, if you will, Scripture'...

Blain · Jul 30, 2017

Here is a way I like to view it, When a person is need of rescue in the midst of utter chaos and danger there are two types of people, those who run from the danger not even noticing the person in need or rescue or sometimes they notice but they run away anyways, and then there are those whose body just moves they don't think their body just instinctively runs to help the person in need of rescue regardless of the chaos and danger around them.

This kind of person is what hero's are made of, their bodies move from what is already in their hearts. And as for works I think it's the same thing we don't even have to think about it our bodies just move. However only a loving heart would instinctively move like that, the ability to serve and to do God's work instinctively is beautiful because our bodies really do react to what is in our hearts. I don't know if that would define a person who saved or not as I know their are unsaved people who have such hearts but people like that will show the true works of the spirit.

Just felt like giving my two cents about that

oldethennew · Jul 30, 2017

you are 'definately' - NOT, '25'! ''HELLO'...

Meggido · Jul 30, 2017

Swell...not by works thread 3!

Blain · Jul 30, 2017

oldethennew said:

lol wisdom and understanding is by no means limited by age with God, Besides I cannot take credit we all who know deserves it

CherieR · Jul 30, 2017

It is not us who does the works. We cannot truly produce the fruit of the Spirit unless we are abiding in Christ. Apart from Christ we can do nothing. Abiding involves rest not trying harder to be a good person. Here is a poem I wrote about how it is not about works but the work of Jesus.:

The blood of Jesus cleanses you
The blood of Jesus cleanses you
Gone are the strivings mingled with guilt
Away with the accusations of our fraility
Away with the incessant voices commanding
" Try harder! Do better!"
ENOUGH!
For it was never about our works in the first place
It is the work of Jesus on the cross
That paid it all
It is the work of Christ in us
That changes us
The blood of Jesus cleanses you
The blood of Jesus cleanses you
Trade in your rags
And put on the Lord Jesus Christ
Give up your self-righteousness
For the righteousness of Christ
Let go of works
And grab a hold of grace

oldethennew · Jul 31, 2017

maybe we, hub and me, are different, but we are always praying and hoping that we
can over-come/become, closer to our Saviour by pleasing Him in any way that we can...
just like, 'loving more-forgiving more-being more tolerant-walking as He walked as best
that we can-growing day-by-day, to much to list...

we so enjoy trying harder every day that He blesses us with, it's really not a 'chore' for us,
but an act of our Love and Gratefulness for Him and His Sacrifice...
we feel that it's the least that we can do...

We are told it is by our faith that we are saved by the grace of God, not by works

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